ISRAEL IS AT WAR !

[Morch]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's what happens when a bunch of western countries decides to use the UN to take someone else's land without consent.

 

Having defeated the Arab countries, Israel didn't return to the area given to them, but continued to illegally occupy Palestinian land and build illegal settlements on it, while suppressing the legal occupants.

Were the Arab countries involved open to negotiations? Were the Palestinian much receptive to anything back then?

The occupation, by itself, was not unreasonable given the conditions back then. The illegal settlement effort is another thing. But presenting a picture in which it was all up to Israel is wrong.

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Morch

[placeholder]

16 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Certainly possible. But given that they must have known that this would invite massive retaliation from the Israelis, I believe that this was basically directed at Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and Qatar and whatever other Arab nations are considering a rapprochement with Israel.

Or it could be a genuine twofer.

[billd766]

8 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

The US does not have an ambassador in Israel  due to Rand Paul.

 

The US does not have a high ranking military officer in Israel due to Tommy Tuberville.

 

I sm sure that Hamas appreciates the GOP assaults on US national security.

Why should there be ANY US presence in Israel at all?

[Jingthing]

Just now, billd766 said:

Why should there be ANY US presence in Israel at all?

Silliest question I've heard in a long time.

[stevenl]

21 minutes ago, Morch said:

The rocket arsenal was not a secret. It gets re-stocked after each confrontation - which makes one wonder just how effective/tight the 'siege' is. The ground attack did not utilize much special means. As per Israel's intelligence failure (which I'm sure will be a focus for investigations post-war), part hubris, part a successful effort by the Palestinians, and part neglect. Especially with commemoration date, it's widely equated with the 1973 surprise.

 

Intelligence gathering is easier than correctly analyzing intentions.

So you're saying Israel knew about the rocket pile, 7000+ according to Hamas, and did nothing about it. I find that hard to believe.

Massive failure of Israeli intelligence here.

[johnnybangkok]

9 minutes ago, billd766 said:

That only works if you are religious in any way. Going back centuries religion has caused more deaths than any wars between any countries.

 

 

Bit of an urban myth this one I'm afraid, 'According to the Encyclopedia of Wars, out of all 1,763 known/recorded historical conflicts, 121, or 6.87%, had religion as their primary cause.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Time for forgiveness is over. We must  take Gaza and  keep it. Eradicate the bloodthirsty factions.  And  transform the  place  as Haussmann did for Paris.  Being able to shoot  the canon at mad dogs crowds  helps.

 

There are, apparently, dozens of Israeli hostages and captives in Hamas's hands. There are two million Gazans. with most not being Hamas members, and definitely not combatants.  Such talk as yours is what politicians use to rally supporters, it's not policy material, or an operative plan.

[stevenl]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Silliest question I've heard in a long time.

Silliest answer in a long time.

[thaibeachlovers]

58 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

Wait....did you just blame the Holocaust on the Jews?  

 

Wow.

Topic isn't the holocaust, so I wasn't referring to that. I'm discussing the current situation.

[SpaceKadet]

15 hours ago, Jingthing said:

If Hamas is targeting civilians then yes terrorists. 

What does that make Israelis then? They have been targeting civilians, including children and news reporters for years.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

Silliest answer in a long time.

I stand by my post.

Suggesting that the US shouldn't have diplomatic relations with one of its closest allies is patently absurd.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, SpaceKadet said:

What does that make Israelis then? They have been targeting civilians, including children and news reporters for years.

Were the Israeli civilians the Hamas terrorists grabbed out of houses throwing rocks at them?

Edited October 8, 2023 by Jingthing

[thaibeachlovers]

14 minutes ago, Morch said:

Were the Arab countries involved open to negotiations? Were the Palestinian much receptive to anything back then?

The occupation, by itself, was not unreasonable given the conditions back then. The illegal settlement effort is another thing. But presenting a picture in which it was all up to Israel is wrong.

 

Israel has all the power, so yes, it is all up to Israel.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

Don't know.

From their perspective, first their land was taken, the international community does nothing, Israel is suppressing them, the international community does nothing, and now their Arab friends are also suppressing them and leaving them alone.

 

Maybe they ought to reflect on their leadership and choices made. So far, all of their 'struggle' and 'resistance' brought them mostly further misery and hardship. On the other hand, every time they make steps toward embracing less violent positions, their situation improves (some....not saying it's all rosy, obviously). The international community's, or even the Arab World's lack of support is also related to the Palestinian stance and inability to embrace effective means for progress.

[Trippy]

I hope Israel eliminates all hamas by whatever means necessary.  

[thaibeachlovers]

32 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

Been watching Al Jazeera for the last couple of hours and I know what side they are on.  Some of the esteemed guests on AJ are saying "Israel had it coming, Israel deserves it".  I also heard one of their anchors say 
"Hamas Military operation into Israel".  This was as when of the video of an Israel women was dragged in and of of an SUV at gun point.  I am expecting a cheering squad to appear on air in support of "Hamas Military Operation" any moment.  I just checked Russia Today and they are clearly on the side of Hamas.  This could go on for a while. Does Gaza now become a flat piece of land by next week? 

Al Jazeera has been commenting on Israeli treatment of Palestinians for some time now. I doubt the BBC or CNN/ Fox have been.

Perhaps Al Jazeera is not positive over Israeli actions given an Israeli soldier murdered an Al Jazeera journalist ( link given previously ), and no Israeli soldier will be held to account over it.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, Trippy said:

I hope Israel eliminates all hamas by whatever means necessary.  

What about the innocents killed as collateral damage?

[Jeff the Chef]

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Ben Zioner said:

My lot knows quite well that the only driver for that sort of comment can be  found  in the  history  of Europe of the 1930s.

I doubt that you actually speak for the whole of your 'lot'. There is no such single minded view within Israel. While rehashing history is all very fine, Israel's own transgression and wrongdoing cannot be ignored, or even be fully excused and justified by it's people's past.

 

There's enough going on without dragging the whole baggage into these 'discussions' (and that goes for the Israel haters on here as well).

[billd766]

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

No doubt but any Israeli leader demagogue or not would be expected to make very similar strong statements in the wake of such an invasion by Hamas. 

Yet the critics in the world are very quiet when the Israelis attack Gaza and the Palestinians with their army, its tanks, ground attack aircraft and helicopter gunships.

[norfolkandchance]

40 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

Been watching Al Jazeera for the last couple of hours and I know what side they are on.  Some of the esteemed guests on AJ are saying "Israel had it coming, Israel deserves it".  I also heard one of their anchors say 
"Hamas Military operation into Israel".  This was as when of the video of an Israel women was dragged in and of of an SUV at gun point.  I am expecting a cheering squad to appear on air in support of "Hamas Military Operation" any moment.  I just checked Russia Today and they are clearly on the side of Hamas.  This could go on for a while. Does Gaza now become a flat piece of land by next week? 

Hopefully.

[metisdead]

Some posts and the replies contravening our Community Standards have been removed.

[Trippy]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What about the innocents killed as collateral damage?

hamas doesn't care about the civilians, why should Israel? Fight fire with fire. Need to end the threat once and for all. 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's true. It hasn't been occupied, but it has been under siege and bombed fairly frequently.

Not something one wants to do if one wants to live peacefully.

 

BTW, the Israelis only left because it was militarily impossible to remain. They didn't leave out of any sense of fairness.

 

The Israelis may very well re occupy it, but they will face the same problems that made them leave before, unless they behave in a way that forces western countries to stop turning a blind eye to the illegal occupation and suppression of the Palestinians.

 

It wasn't put under 'siege' or 'bombed' on a whim, but in relation to Hamas actions. You can try spinning that all you want. Never said anything about fairness, that's your addition. The situation came to a point where the Israeli pubic was ready to accept the withdrawal, given the price paid. From a purely military point of view, there was no issue going on controlling the Gaza Strip. This move, by the way, required a strong right wing leader in place (Sharon) .

 

I'm not saying that reoccupying the Gaza Strip is a good idea. It's not. It's one of them things which are easy to start, but hard to end. Regardless, given the current situation, it might happen anyway. Not that I think it will solve much, even on the immediate level - but given that there are no good options or solutions, it could come about.

[Nick Carter icp]

14 minutes ago, Trippy said:

I hope Israel eliminates all hamas by whatever means necessary.  

Israel stated that they are going to remove all the Government and military in Gaza

 

"Following the Meeting tonight of the Israeli National Security Cabinet it was decided that the IDF will soon begin an Operation that will bring forth the Destruction of the Military and Governmental Capability of Hamas in the Gaza Strip."

[norfolkandchance]

10 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What about the innocents killed as collateral damage?

That's all they are. Collateral.

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Yet the critics in the world are very quiet when the Israelis attack Gaza and the Palestinians with their army, its tanks, ground attack aircraft and helicopter gunships.

What would any country do in response to the attack by Hamas?

[Paul Catton]

1 hour ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

Get a grip... it was negotiated... broke no laws

It wasn't negotiated between the Palestinians who occupied the territory, they were sold down the river.

https://www.un.org/unispal/history2/origins-and-evolution-of-the-palestine-problem/part-i-1917-1947/

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Ah, so you think that being allowed out of the prison to go work for the oppressors is a good thing. How about they are allowed to have a port to trade with other countries and work for themselves? That way they might even be able to get medical supplies, which are restricted by Israel.

 

 

 

I think it's better to have a job and means to support oneself, rather than being right and starve to death. Since applications for these permits exceed quotas (both from the Gaza Strip and the West Bank), the general Palestinian populace seems to feel the same.

 

A port is a fine notion. But considering Hamas manages to smuggle in enough materials for thousands of rockets, what do you imagine would happen with a port under their control? Again, the reason such things remain out of grasp relate to Hamas's actions and policies.

 

Egypt could have easily provided the Gazans with free passage, work and even a port. It chooses not to.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Of course it's always someone else's fault, isn't it?

How about looking in the mirror?

 

Considering your own steam of one sided arguments and complaints, seem like your doing just that.