ISRAEL IS AT WAR !

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

The day Hamas are eliminated will make my day

I hope there are more things that can make your day. I don't see how Hamas can be eliminated through a military operation. 

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Don't see anyone apologising for Hamas on here, only Zionists defending the undefendable in Gaza.

you probably wouldn't as that's not the same as Hamas apologists, nice try Chef

[Morch]

19 minutes ago, paddypower said:

that's true. History has shown that the Arabs seem to be riven by tribal differences, which has made them ineffective leaders for the cause of establishing some type of a compromise for the Palestines. but I cannot give up hope that a peaceful solution will be found.

 

Rev. Jesse Jackson approves.

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, stevenl said:

I hope there are more things that can make your day. I don't see how Hamas can be eliminated through a military operation. 

You always fail to look at the context of the post I was responding to, now try again, the poster stated that:

 

The day he is put into an Israeli jail (he has been indicted for corruption) will make my day. [Netanyahu]

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Bkk Brian

[Morch]

19 minutes ago, paddypower said:

I am slow to anger. But if you read his series of insulting posts, he asked for it. btw, although I am sure it is a coincidence, there's more to his nom de guerre, if you're Irish.: 

---

 

Morch

A racist insult to someone who is Irish or has an Irish background, ethnicity, heritage, etc.

Also counts as a noun and can be used as a derogatory statement. (Meaning it can also insult anyone regardless of their background, too)

Hey Shamus, your an 'effin Morch!

 

Thank you. Wasn't aware. A proof we could all learn and better ourselves reading this here topic.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

To be fair, it's not like the Palestinians were ready and willing for a two-state solution, even if Netanyahu was into it.

You sure about that?

(1) Final Borders and Territorial Exchange 

Among Palestinians 63% support or strongly support and 35% oppose or strongly oppose an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with the exception of some settlement areas in less than 3% of the West Bank that would be swapped with an equal amount of territory from Israel in accordance with a map that was presented to respondents. The map was identical to that presented to respondents in December 2003. At that time, support for this compromise, with its map, stood at 57% and opposition at 41%.

Among Israelis 55% support and 43% oppose a Palestinian state in the entirety of Judea Samaria and the Gaza Strip except for several large blocks of settlements in 3% of the West Bank which will be annexed to Israel. The Palestinians will receive in return territory of similar size along the Gaza Strip. In December 2003, 47% of the Israelis supported this component while 50% opposed it.

https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/445

[stevenl]

10 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You always fail to look at the context of the post I was responding to, now try again, the poster stated that:

 

The day he is put into an Israeli jail (he has been indicted for corruption) will make my day. [Netanyahu]

 

 

 

The post you replied to is unrelated to my remark.

As always you fail to see the meaning of the post made. 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, stevenl said:

The post you replied to is unrelated to my remark.

As always you fail to see the meaning of the post made. 

No its totally related to my post, the reason I stated it was because I was responding to a poster who was oblivious of the real problem at the moment, got it now. I'm not interested in the meaning of your post. 

[metisdead]

Off topic posts, baiting posts, personal attack posts and the replies contravening our Community Standards have been removed:

• Please be polite and respectful to others
• Do not flame, troll or stalk other members

[stevenl]

8 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

No its totally related to my post, the reason I stated it was because I was responding to a poster who was oblivious of the real problem at the moment, got it now. I'm not interested in the meaning of your post. 

Sure, that's why you tried to correct.

I hope something makes your day.

[Bkk Brian]

9 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Sure, that's why you tried to correct.

I hope something makes your day.

Tried to correct what?

 

Here is what you said to me:

 

I hope there are more things that can make your day. I don't see how Hamas can be eliminated through a military operation. 

 

None of your business what else could make my day and your other remark, ok your opinion, happy now?

 

Go and troll elsewhere

Edited November 5, 2023 by Bkk Brian

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You sure about that?

(1) Final Borders and Territorial Exchange 

Among Palestinians 63% support or strongly support and 35% oppose or strongly oppose an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with the exception of some settlement areas in less than 3% of the West Bank that would be swapped with an equal amount of territory from Israel in accordance with a map that was presented to respondents. The map was identical to that presented to respondents in December 2003. At that time, support for this compromise, with its map, stood at 57% and opposition at 41%.

Among Israelis 55% support and 43% oppose a Palestinian state in the entirety of Judea Samaria and the Gaza Strip except for several large blocks of settlements in 3% of the West Bank which will be annexed to Israel. The Palestinians will receive in return territory of similar size along the Gaza Strip. In December 2003, 47% of the Israelis supported this component while 50% opposed it.

https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/445

 

Yes, I am.

Mostly because I do not rely solely on polls to have an opinion.

 

I'll give you a current example, to illustrate. Abbas, heading the PA, is often cited as the one Israel should be dealing with. Now, let's ignore he's not very popular, on his last legs, and indecisive. We can also disregard, for the purposes of making this point, his bouts of antisemitism. What is more or less a constant for some time now, is his pin lapel. Kinda popular with Palestinian higher up. It shows their flag, and an old key. The key represents the houses they left (or driven out of, whatever) in 1948. Seems like nothing much (and I'm sure you'll have a go at it), but it underscores a (in my experience) rather prevalent sentiment among Palestinians (even ones who didn't own any houses or weren't born yet) that the past is very much alive, and that old claims aren't going anywhere.

 

I can go on, as i did in the proper topic related to this, about how Palestinian (well, Arab) politics, social structures and traditions play their part. But since your reactions to most things you can't pull of the net are dismissive, maybe not much point.

 

My basic view on this is that there's this gap between poll results and how things are, or how people polled actually react to reality. Yet another example, perhaps - all this massive support for peace, and yet not much by way of public pressure on leadership to do anything, no mass protests supporting the actions needed to go ahead, or against forces opposed to peace. Same thing we're seeing in the Gaza Strip with regard to the Hamas. Like it or not, the culture, the traditions and history of the Palestinian people are not easily translated to Western concepts and ideas. There is no peace movement as such on the Palestinians side.

 

And let's go even one more step further - these figures weren't secret, and I'm sure PA leadership had access to them, and proper analysis presented. All that, and they still did not make a decisive move, no breakthrough play, for peace. Maybe they had a different agenda, maybe they had a more in-depth understanding of the relevant political trends, maybe the made a mistake. I don't know for sure. But obviously, they weren't as confident of these figures the way you seem to be.

 

 

 

[Morch]

6 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Terrible. They should get rid of Netanyahu quickly(the Israelis)

 

First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin.

[ExpatOilWorker]

https://x.com/region776/status/1721112616964341770?s=20

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Sure, that's why you tried to correct.

I hope something makes your day.

 

.....

[placeholder]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Yes, I am.

Mostly because I do not rely solely on polls to have an opinion.

 

I'll give you a current example, to illustrate. Abbas, heading the PA, is often cited as the one Israel should be dealing with. Now, let's ignore he's not very popular, on his last legs, and indecisive. We can also disregard, for the purposes of making this point, his bouts of antisemitism. What is more or less a constant for some time now, is his pin lapel. Kinda popular with Palestinian higher up. It shows their flag, and an old key. The key represents the houses they left (or driven out of, whatever) in 1948. Seems like nothing much (and I'm sure you'll have a go at it), but it underscores a (in my experience) rather prevalent sentiment among Palestinians (even ones who didn't own any houses or weren't born yet) that the past is very much alive, and that old claims aren't going anywhere.

 

I can go on, as i did in the proper topic related to this, about how Palestinian (well, Arab) politics, social structures and traditions play their part. But since your reactions to most things you can't pull of the net are dismissive, maybe not much point.

 

My basic view on this is that there's this gap between poll results and how things are, or how people polled actually react to reality. Yet another example, perhaps - all this massive support for peace, and yet not much by way of public pressure on leadership to do anything, no mass protests supporting the actions needed to go ahead, or against forces opposed to peace. Same thing we're seeing in the Gaza Strip with regard to the Hamas. Like it or not, the culture, the traditions and history of the Palestinian people are not easily translated to Western concepts and ideas. There is no peace movement as such on the Palestinians side.

 

And let's go even one more step further - these figures weren't secret, and I'm sure PA leadership had access to them, and proper analysis presented. All that, and they still did not make a decisive move, no breakthrough play, for peace. Maybe they had a different agenda, maybe they had a more in-depth understanding of the relevant political trends, maybe the made a mistake. I don't know for sure. But obviously, they weren't as confident of these figures the way you seem to be.

Given that the Israelis continued to act in ways to antagonize the Palestinians, such as but not limited to its settlement policies, it's not surprising that Palestinians were not enthusiastic about pursuing peace. I suppose I could say that given that Netanyahu was PM most of 21st century, this is not exactly a surprise. Would you really expect Palistininas to be publicly pushing their leadership to do a deal with that repugnant party? Although to be fair to Netanyahu,, has Labor been substantially better? We'll never know how things would have turned out had Israel behaved decently during this epoch.

Anyway, just to show that the poll I cited wasn't an outlier, here's a link to a study based on 100 polls.

https://www.usip.org/publications/2006/01/willing-compromise-palestinian-public-opinion-and-peace-process

Edited November 5, 2023 by placeholder

[Morch]

Just now, placeholder said:

Given that the Israelis continued to act in ways to antagonize the Palestinians, such as but not limited to its settlement policies, it's not surprising that Palestinians were not enthusiastic about pursuing peace. I suppose I could say that given that Netanyahu was PM most of 21st century, this is not exactly a surprise. Would you really expect Palistininas to be publicly pushing their leadership to do a deal with that repugnant party? Although to be fair to Netanyahu,, has Labor been substantially better? We'll never know how things would have turned out had Israel behaved decently. 

Anyway, just to show that the poll I cited wasn't an outlier, here's a link to a study based on 100 polls.

https://www.usip.org/publications/2006/01/willing-compromise-palestinian-public-opinion-and-peace-process

 

Make up your mind as to what you're pushing and I'll address it. Earlier post you claimed Palestinians were for peace, now you seem to be claiming something more nuanced. In 2005 the Israeli Prime Minister was Sharon. I daresay he was a 'trifle' more reviled and hated by Palestinians, or at the very least as much as Netnayahu was later on.

 

Dully noted you ignored most point raised, and instead went for the 'what if' - but only from Israel's side. No such 'what if' suggested with regard to the Palestinians. naturally. The usual free pass.

 

You can cite as many polls as you like, they are meaningless if one does not consider or is unfamiliar with things beyond figures and tabs.

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Make up your mind as to what you're pushing and I'll address it. Earlier post you claimed Palestinians were for peace, now you seem to be claiming something more nuanced. In 2005 the Israeli Prime Minister was Sharon. I daresay he was a 'trifle' more reviled and hated by Palestinians, or at the very least as much as Netnayahu was later on.

 

Dully noted you ignored most point raised, and instead went for the 'what if' - but only from Israel's side. No such 'what if' suggested with regard to the Palestinians. naturally. The usual free pass.

 

You can cite as many polls as you like, they are meaningless if one does not consider or is unfamiliar with things beyond figures and tabs.

Well, I forgot about Sharon. So you've disproved a minor point only to strengthen my argument.  What exactly could the Palestinians have offered the Israelis as some kind of token while settlements were expanding and Palestinians were being dispossessed? Were the Israelis being victimized during this period? While you've acknowledged that the Palestinians are oppressed, you don't seem to grasp how their experience of this oppression  plays out vis a vs the Israelis.

[Bkk Brian]

Just a tad extreme, put this one in the duh section

 

JERUSALEM, Nov 5 (Reuters) - Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday disciplined a junior member of his cabinet who appeared to voice openness to the idea of Israel carrying out a nuclear strike on Gaza, where the war with Hamas is inflicting a spiralling Palestinian civilian toll.

Netanyahu's office issued a statement saying that the minister concerned - Heritage Minister Amihay Eliyahu, from a far-right party in the coalition government - had been suspended from cabinet meetings "until further notice".

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/netanyahu-disciplines-israeli-minister-who-voiced-openness-hypothetical-nuclear-2023-11-05/

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Well, I forgot about Sharon. So you've disproved a minor point only to strengthen my argument.  What exactly could the Palestinians have offered the Israelis as some kind of token while settlements were expanding and Palestinians were being dispossessed? Were the Israelis being victimized during this period? While you've acknowledged that the Palestinians are oppressed, you don't seem to grasp how their experience of this oppression  plays out vis a vs the Israelis.

 

I'm not interested in your point scoring. I've made a post giving you some pointers as to why I'm not overly impressed by polls presented, and why I do not have blind faith in them the way you seem to. What you offer in response is more of the same, plus some dodging of issues and points raised.

 

I've addressed the same 'questions' you put up now on recent previous comments. As usual, you insist on pretending things weren't already discussed.

 

The Palestinians could have chosen many different ways, many different paths - what it comes down to is that both leadership and people assumed a rather passive stance. You want to claim they had no choice? There's no good reasoning for that unless one allows for things mentioned in my previous post. You're just doing the same old free pass thing.

 

The only way which you could support your view is by allowing some dissonance between their supposed pro-peace  stance, and a supposed sense that efforts would be futile. That would rob your argument of whatever little force it had, and ultimately go towards my original claim about not being ready and willing.

 

As for your remarks on oppression - you've read a couple of articles and you think you 'grasp' things? Seriously? You've no idea. Considering you can't discuss anything related beyond what you can pull from polls or a quick Goggle search, I'm not very impressed.

 

 

 

[BarraMarra]

1 hour ago, freeworld said:

 

Netanyahu Vows No Palestinian State While He's Prime Minister

https://time.com/3746427/netanyahu-no-palestinian-state/

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/01/middleeast/netanyahu-palestinian-sovereignty-mime-intl/index.html

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-elections-benjamin-netanyahu-says-there-will-be-no-palestinian-state-if-voters-back-him-10111958.html

 

 

 

 

For Gods sake give it rest with what Netanyahu said years ago Freeworld were not interested in states were only interested in today 2023 stop deflecting from the current thread.

[Morch]

18 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Just a tad extreme, put this one in the duh section

 

JERUSALEM, Nov 5 (Reuters) - Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday disciplined a junior member of his cabinet who appeared to voice openness to the idea of Israel carrying out a nuclear strike on Gaza, where the war with Hamas is inflicting a spiralling Palestinian civilian toll.

Netanyahu's office issued a statement saying that the minister concerned - Heritage Minister Amihay Eliyahu, from a far-right party in the coalition government - had been suspended from cabinet meetings "until further notice".

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/netanyahu-disciplines-israeli-minister-who-voiced-openness-hypothetical-nuclear-2023-11-05/

 

Yeah, got pretty much wall-to-wall condemnation, but still with that stupid grin on his face. Man can't seem to go a couple of weeks without saying something outrageous. An extremist and a clown even by the current governments' low standards.

[BarraMarra]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

I hope there are more things that can make your day. I don't see how Hamas can be eliminated through a military operation. 

I can bomb them all the way to the Gates of Hell.

[Jeff the Chef]

Just now, BarraMarra said:

I can bomb them all the way to the Gates of Hell.

Can you prove that Hell has gates?

[Eloquent pilgrim]

1 hour ago, paddypower said:

that's true. History has shown that the Arabs seem to be riven by tribal differences, which has made them ineffective leaders for the cause of establishing some type of a compromise for the Palestines. but I cannot give up hope that a peaceful solution will be found.

Succinct summary; to take Hamas as the most recent example, they have never wanted peace, or a two state solution, and on the 7th October they announced to the world that they never, ever, under any circumstances, want peace for the people whose best interests they are supposed to represent.

 

The people of Gaza will never have any chance of a peaceful existence while Hamas are their governing body, so Hamas must be removed from Gaza, and it looks as if Israel are the only ones prepared to remove them; because, looking at the wider view, despite every muslim / Islamic country in the world, and many non muslim countries, demanding that Israel instigate a cease fire, I can find few, well, none actually, of them demanding that Hamas cease fire and release the hostages they have taken.

 

Even the fools, and those in denial, now understand that Hamas are not just prepared to sacrifice the civilians of Gaza for the propaganda value of their ideology (the eradication of all jews) but that they are being supported by a much, much wider faction of the Arab world that are also prepared to see the civilians of Gaza used as fodder for the incitement of a worldwide uprising of islamists against the western world …….. cynic moi ?

 

..... good that you haven't given up hope ..... 

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, BarraMarra said:

I can bomb them all the way to the Gates of Hell.

 

I think you need some tissues or you'll make a mess.

[BarraMarra]

4 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Can you prove that Hell has gates?

Im sure your mate Thorgal will slip in a link disproving it Chef. You not busy today with Sunday lunches.

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Succinct summary; to take Hamas as the most recent example, they have never wanted peace, or a two state solution, and on the 7th October they announced to the world that they never, ever, under any circumstances, want peace for the people whose best interests they are supposed to represent.

 

The people of Gaza will never have any chance of a peaceful existence while Hamas are their governing body, so Hamas must be removed from Gaza, and it looks as if Israel are the only ones prepared to remove them; because, looking at the wider view, despite every muslim / Islamic country in the world, and many non muslim countries, demanding that Israel instigate a cease fire, I can find few, well, none actually, of them demanding that Hamas cease fire and release the hostages they have taken.

 

Even the fools, and those in denial, now understand that Hamas are not just prepared to sacrifice the civilians of Gaza for the propaganda value of their ideology (the eradication of all jews) but that they are being supported by a much, much wider faction of the Arab world that are also prepared to see the civilians of Gaza used as fodder for the incitement of a worldwide uprising of islamists against the western world …….. cynic moi ?

 

..... good that you haven't given up hope ..... 

 

What Arab countries do you see as supporting Hamas, and how?

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I'm not interested in your point scoring. I've made a post giving you some pointers as to why I'm not overly impressed by polls presented, and why I do not have blind faith in them the way you seem to. What you offer in response is more of the same, plus some dodging of issues and points raised.

 

I've addressed the same 'questions' you put up now on recent previous comments. As usual, you insist on pretending things weren't already discussed.

 

The Palestinians could have chosen many different ways, many different paths - what it comes down to is that both leadership and people assumed a rather passive stance. You want to claim they had no choice? There's no good reasoning for that unless one allows for things mentioned in my previous post. You're just doing the same old free pass thing.

 

The only way which you could support your view is by allowing some dissonance between their supposed pro-peace  stance, and a supposed sense that efforts would be futile. That would rob your argument of whatever little force it had, and ultimately go towards my original claim about not being ready and willing.

 

As for your remarks on oppression - you've read a couple of articles and you think you 'grasp' things? Seriously? You've no idea. Considering you can't discuss anything related beyond what you can pull from polls or a quick Goggle search, I'm not very impressed.

 

 

 

What can I say. You clearly don't grasp the impossibility of reaching out to a government that is actively working to displace you. A government tat offers nothing to encourage any such efforts.

And you can't help but make it personal by making allegations. Quite a sorry habit with you.

[BarraMarra]

Just now, Morch said:

 

What Arab countries do you see as supporting Hamas, and how?

Errr Iran maybe.