Analysis Israel's options don't look good - but a full-scale military campaign in the near future is inevitable

[riclag]

2 hours ago, bizboi said:

Seems to me Hamas always starts it every time things go quiet - I used to have a balanced view too but then I saw what’s happening to the Kurds and the koptics in Egypt and the Armenians - it’s purely about one sides religion being unable to tolerate anything but their own @book@

 “Islam is a religion of universalism, tolerance, peace, and reconciliation. Islam teaches that life is sacred and that the believer has a duty to uphold truth and justice”.

Seems to me Hamas has no interest 

in reconciliation with the jews!

Their terror attack tactics  on Israeli citizens and others was against their religious tenets!

“Life is sacred”.

 

The IDF is telling areas of GAZa to leave in their quest to exterminate every remaining Hamas member!

 

[Morch]

21 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/11/arab-ministers-urge-israel-to-resume-talks-on-two-state-solution

There's that.

But notice that the Hamas did not support (then or now) this notion. Hamas's 'response' for the original statement was a yet another mass terrorist bombing. The PA, too, was sort of pressured by Saudi Arabia and other Arab nations into going along with it, not that it was enthusiastic or anything.

 

Still, a shame the Israeli government did not at least engage the Arab World back then.

 

Fast forward to the present - and much of the regional political landscape changed as to make the original offer out of sync with reality. Still a good enough basis for entering discussions, IMO, if parties were ever willing to.

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, billd766 said:

It can also be called genocide.

Only by those insisting on hyperbole and devaluing of the term.

[Jeff the Chef]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

Reading comprehension issues, again?

There you go use your comprehensive reading skills reading this

 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

[MikeandDow]

2 minutes ago, riclag said:

 “Islam is a religion of universalism, tolerance, peace, and reconciliation. Islam teaches that life is sacred and that the believer has a duty to uphold truth and justice”.

Seems to me Hamas has no interest 

in reconciliation with the jews!

Their terror attack tactics  on Israeli citizens and others was against their religious tenets!

“Life is sacred”.

 

The IDF is telling areas of GAZa to leave in their quest to exterminate every remaining Hamas member!

 

very perspective view on Islam "life is sacred"   best tell the islamic terrorist

[proton]

42 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/11/arab-ministers-urge-israel-to-resume-talks-on-two-state-solution

The Guardian, like quoting RT for the truth on the Russian invasion of Ukraine !

[Walker88]

23 minutes ago, Morch said:

Several comments (not that I disagree with the core of your post):

 

The Lehi and the Irgun were not the mainstream organizations at the time. Hamas's status among Palestinians, and as de-facto rulers of the Gaza Strip, is very different.

 

 

I don't know what 'mainstream' means or how that excuses anything, but the leader of the Irgun was Menachem Begin, who went on to become Prime Minister, despite his hand in the slaughter at Deir Yassin.

 

Prime Minister sounds pretty mainstream, and sadly, Deir Yassin was just about the first terrorist act on that land, which has subsequently led to almost 8 decades of terrorism and reprisals.

 

Both sides gravitate toward leaders who are always ready to draw swords. Until that changes on both sides, the slaughter will continue.

 

 

[MikeandDow]

2 hours ago, bizboi said:

Israel was there four thousand years before any Palestinian!!!

What a load of BS  stop posting false infomation

[proton]

23 minutes ago, riclag said:

 “Islam is a religion of universalism, tolerance, peace, and reconciliation. Islam teaches that life is sacred and that the believer has a duty to uphold truth and justice”.

Seems to me Hamas has no interest 

in reconciliation with the jews!

Their terror attack tactics  on Israeli citizens and others was against their religious tenets!

“Life is sacred”.

 

The IDF is telling areas of GAZa to leave in their quest to exterminate every remaining Hamas member!

 

Not against Islamic belief's at all but 100% in line with them, muslims have always discriminated against Jews since they made them pay the tax for being Jews, then making them wear yellow markings to identify them in public (before the nazis) The Quran and Hadiths have several passages about killing Jews, and who was it who admitted being victorious with terror? why the prophet himself, who is the inspiration for all islamic jihad against jews. 

[proton]

8 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

What a load of BS  stop posting false infomation

Only slightly wrong, over 3200 years, a Pharaoh was the first to try and kill them all, then many others including the Nazis, they all failed as will Hamas,

 

The earliest recorded evidence of a people by the name of Israel (as ysrỉꜣr) occurs in the Egyptian Merneptah Stele, erected for Pharaoh Merneptah (son of Ramesses II) c. 1209 BCE, which states "Israel is laid waste and his seed is not."^[26]

The Merneptah Stele. According to mainstream archeology, it represents the first instance of the name "Israel" in the historical record.

[stoner]

1 hour ago, proton said:

Sounds like wish full thinking so you could use anything like that to demonise Israel.

and it sounds like you are making stupid assumptions. don't let me stop you now. 

[novacova]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

When did the Palestinians ever use their military, (they don't have one), or tanks, helicopter gunships and ground attack aircraft against Israel?

Use military to eradicate terrorist 

[stoner]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Sometimes war is necessary. 

wrong.

[novacova]

4 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Neither side has any morals, these tit for tat atrocities have been going on for millennia

None of  the protagonists on both sides will never be happy no matter what the outcome.

To me it is all a waste of human lives.

Well I’m not telling anyone to care though each individual should care, having the fortitude to define of what their good/bad, right/wrong is, of what their personal moral definition is. There is no grey zone other than an ambiguous cop out, a blinded cop out pacification of not having the ability to admit to themselves or publicly. I’m not religious or carry any ideological identity though this old story goes back to Cain and Able, Isaac and Ishmael and they’re still going at it. If Israel is somehow chosen by a deity, then I’d assume it’s not because they’re more special than others but to use them to show and epitomize the good and bad of human nature. Seems like a cruel infliction on a race, though some may argue a necessary displacement. War and violence has shown the ugliest side of life on earth, this will never change due to human nature and creating laws and peace agreements will inevitably falter, as history has shown. In any case, whatever one believes of what is just or unjust, Israel is p1ss$d off and I doubt there’s any stopping their resolve, just hope this event doesn’t spiral further into/from the region considering a tiny nuclear state surrounded by enemies, and with a moral philosophy/policy of Never Again 

[Morch]

35 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

I don't know what 'mainstream' means or how that excuses anything, but the leader of the Irgun was Menachem Begin, who went on to become Prime Minister, despite his hand in the slaughter at Deir Yassin.

 

Prime Minister sounds pretty mainstream, and sadly, Deir Yassin was just about the first terrorist act on that land, which has subsequently led to almost 8 decades of terrorism and reprisals.

 

Both sides gravitate toward leaders who are always ready to draw swords. Until that changes on both sides, the slaughter will continue.

 

 

Mainstream as in representing public sentiment, enjoying public support. Not offered as an excuse, but more as in indication for the level of ingrained obstacles which need to be overcome. Makes a difference if an action is carried out by a relatively small outfit with fewer supporters, or by a large one which usually garners mass support. Same goes for public reactions to such actions.

 

Was never a fan of Begin, nor Shamir, and did not think either was a good appointment, morally and ethically as well. Leaders of such organization becoming politicians and office holder down the line, is how things are in many instances. Same way Israel had to put up with Arafat, or many of the subsequent Palestinian officials appointed.

 

Stating Dier Yassin was 'the first terrorist act' etc. seems like an arbitrary choice. There were other attacks, other massacres, and easy enough to choose a different entry point to the chronology - say, 1929? Both sides have their own respective narratives and litanies of woes. 

 

I don't know that Abbas is much for sword-play, but then again he's not very popular either. As for Netanyahu, while I find him and his actions deplorable (see previous posts on this topic and others, if needed) - not quite a warmonger as some suggest, IMO. More like a total cynic, who puts his own political survival way ahead of any other consideration, moral obligation and so on. The fitting reference is Trump.

[MikeandDow]

41 minutes ago, proton said:

Only slightly wrong, over 3200 years, a Pharaoh was the first to try and kill them all, then many others including the Nazis, they all failed as will Hamas,

 

The earliest recorded evidence of a people by the name of Israel (as ysrỉꜣr) occurs in the Egyptian Merneptah Stele, erected for Pharaoh Merneptah (son of Ramesses II) c. 1209 BCE, which states "Israel is laid waste and his seed is not."^[26]

The Merneptah Stele. According to mainstream archeology, it represents the first instance of the name "Israel" in the historical record.

This refers to sign is typically used by the Egyptians to signify nomadic groups or peoples, without a fixed city-state home, thus implying a seminomadic or rural status for 'Israel' at that time

we are having a conversation on the state of Israel again you are talking BS

[novacova]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

It can also be called genocide.

Unfortunately war is part of the human condition, call it as you wish.

[SpaceKadet]

4 hours ago, bizboi said:

Israel was there four thousand years before any Palestinian!!!

I think you should revisit your history. Israel did not exist before 1948.

 

Biblical and archeological evidence indicate that the Jews conquered and began to settle the land of Canaan (as this area was known then) during the thirteenth century BCE. It took them several decades to establish some degree of dominance over what they then called Eretz Yisrael. The land that was promised to them by their God, they claim.

 

In fact the roots to the current conflict started as recent as the time of WW1. Before then, Arabs and Jews were living together in a relatively peaceful coexistence for several hundreds of years. At the beginning of the WW1 there was even talks between Arabs and Jews to establish a coalition to protect the country (known as Palestine by that time) from the impact of the coming war.

 

And then, after the end of WW2, it was the geopolitical greed of the colonial powers to meddle and create the mess we are in now. It was the Allied powers that just couldn't keep their sticky fingers from telling everyone how the Middle East should be divided to suit their political interests.

 

If someone invades your house, tells you that you can live in the garage and <deleted> in a bucket, you'll eventually get fed up and rise...

 

And here we are...

 

[MikeandDow]

7 minutes ago, SpaceKadet said:

I think you should revisit your history. Israel did not exist before 1947.

 

Biblical and archeological evidence indicate that the Jews conquered and began to settle the land of Canaan (as this area was known then) during the thirteenth century BCE. It took them several decades to establish some degree of dominance over what they then called Eretz Yisrael. The land that was promised to them by their God, they claim.

 

In fact the roots to the current conflict started as recent as the time of WW1. Before then, Arabs and Jews were living together in a relatively peaceful coexistence for several hundreds of years. At the beginning of the WW1 there was even talks between Arabs and Jews to establish a coalition to protect the country (known as Palestine by that time) from the impact of the coming war.

 

And then, after the end of WW2, it was the geopolitical greed of the colonial powers to meddle and create the mess we are in now. It was the Allied powers that just couldn't keep their sticky fingers from telling everyone how the Middle East should be divided to suit their political interests.

 

If someone invades your house, tells you that you can live in the garage and <deleted> in a bucket, you'll eventually get fed up and rise...

 

And here we are...

 

nearly correct 

In 1917, during World War I, British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour sent the Balfour Declaration to Lord Rothschild, a leader of the British Jewish community, that stated that Britain intended for the creation of a Jewish "national home" in Palestine.

In 1918, the Jewish Legion, a group primarily of Zionist volunteers, assisted in the British conquest of Palestine.In 1920, after the Allies conquered the Levant during World War I, the territory was divided between Britain and France under the mandate system, and the British-administered area which included modern day Israel was named Mandatory Palestine. Arab opposition to British rule and Jewish immigration led to the 1920 Palestine riots and the formation of a Jewish militia known as the Haganah (meaning "The Defense" in Hebrew) as an outgrowth of Hashomer, from which the Irgun and Lehi paramilitaries later split off.In 1922, the League of Nations granted Britain the Mandate for Palestine under terms which included the Balfour Declaration with its promise to the Jews, and with similar provisions regarding the Arab Palestinians. The population of the area at this time was predominantly Arab and Muslim, with Jews accounting for about 11%, and Arab Christians about 9.5% of the population.

The Third (1919–23) and Fourth Aliyahs (1924–29) brought an additional 100,000 Jews to Palestine. The rise of Nazism and the increasing persecution of Jews in 1930s Europe led to the Fifth Aliyah, with an influx of a quarter of a million Jews. This was a major cause of the Arab revolt of 1936–39, which was launched as a reaction to continued Jewish immigration and land purchases. The revolt, which also involved a significant amount of intercommunal fighting among the Arabs, was suppressed by British security forces and Zionist militias. Several hundred British security personnel and Jews were killed, while 5,032 Arabs were killed 14,760 were wounded, and 12,622 were detained.An estimated ten percent of the adult male Palestinian Arab population was killed, wounded, imprisoned or exiled. The British introduced restrictions on Jewish immigration to Palestine with the White Paper of 1939. With countries around the world turning away Jewish refugees fleeing the Holocaust, a clandestine movement known as Aliyah Bet was organized to bring Jews to Palestine. By the end of World War II, the Jewish population of Palestine had increased to 31% of the total population.

After World War II, the UK found itself facing a Jewish guerrilla campaign over Jewish immigration restrictions, as well as continued conflict with the Arab community over limit levels. The Haganah joined Irgun and Lehi in an armed struggle against British rule. At the same time, hundreds of thousands of Jewish Holocaust survivors and refugees sought a new life far from their destroyed communities in Europe. The Haganah attempted to bring these refugees to Palestine in a programme called Aliyah Bet in which tens of thousands of Jewish refugees attempted to enter Palestine by ship. Most of the ships were intercepted by the Royal Navy and the refugees rounded up and placed in detention camps in Atlit and Cyprus by the British.

 

On 22 July 1946, Irgun bombed the British administrative headquarters for Palestine, which was housed in the southern wing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem. A total of 91 people of various nationalities were killed and 46 were injured.The hotel was the site of the Secretariat of the Government of Palestine and the Headquarters of the British Armed Forces in Mandatory Palestine and Transjordan.The attack initially had the approval of the Haganah. It was conceived as a response to Operation Agatha (a series of widespread raids, including one on the Jewish Agency, conducted by the British authorities) and was the deadliest directed at the British during the Mandate era. The Jewish insurgency continued throughout the rest of 1946 and 1947 despite concerted efforts by the British military and Palestine Police Force to suppress it. British efforts to mediate a negotiated solution with Jewish and Arab representatives also failed as the Jews were unwilling to accept any solution that did not involve a Jewish state and suggested a partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, while the Arabs were adamant that a Jewish state in any part of Palestine was unacceptable and that the only solution was a unified Palestine under Arab rule. In February 1947, the British referred the Palestine issue to the newly formed United Nations. On 15 May 1947, the General Assembly of the United Nations resolved that the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine be created "to prepare for consideration at the next regular session of the Assembly a report on the question of Palestine."In the Report of the Committee dated 3 September 1947 to the General Assembly, the majority of the Committee in Chapter VI proposed a plan to replace the British Mandate with "an independent Arab State, an independent Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem  the last to be under an International Trusteeship System." Meanwhile, the Jewish insurgency continued and peaked in July 1947, with a series of widespread guerrilla raids culminating in the Sergeants affair, in which the Irgun took two British sergeants hostage as attempted leverage against the planned execution of three Irgun operatives. After the executions were carried out, the Irgun killed the two British soldiers, hanged their bodies from trees, and left a booby trap at the scene which injured a British soldier. The incident caused widespread outrage in the UK.

In September 1947, the British cabinet decided that the Mandate was no longer tenable and to evacuate Palestine. According to Colonial Secretary Arthur Creech Jones, four major factors led to the decision to evacuate Palestine: the inflexibility of Jewish and Arab negotiators who were unwilling to compromise on their core positions over the question of a Jewish state in Palestine, the economic pressure that stationing a large garrison in Palestine to deal with the Jewish insurgency, the possibility of a wider Jewish rebellion, and the possibility of an Arab rebellion put on a British economy already strained by World War II, the "deadly blow to British patience and pride" caused by the hangings of the sergeants, and the mounting criticism the government faced in failing to find a new policy for Palestine in place of the White Paper of 1939.

On 29 November 1947, the General Assembly adopted Resolution 181 (II) recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan of Partition with Economic Union.The plan attached to the resolution was essentially that proposed by the majority of the Committee in the report of 3 September. The Jewish Agency, which was the recognized representative of the Jewish community, accepted the plan, which assigned 55–56% of Mandatory Palestine to the Jews. At the time, the Jews were about a third of the population of Palestine and owned around 6-7% of the land. Arabs constituted the majority of Palestine's population and owned about 20% of the land, with the remainder held by the Mandate authorities or foreign landowners.The Arab League and Arab Higher Committee of Palestine rejected it, and indicated that they would reject any other plan of partition.[160][161] On 1 December 1947, the Arab Higher Committee proclaimed a three-day strike, and riots broke out in Jerusalem.The situation spiraled into a civil war; just two weeks after the UN vote, Colonial Secretary Arthur Creech Jones announced that the British Mandate would end on 15 May 1948, at which point the British would evacuate. As Arab militias and gangs attacked Jewish areas, they were faced mainly by the Haganah, as well as the smaller Irgun and Lehi. In April 1948, the Haganah moved onto the offensive.During this period 250,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled, due to a number of factors.

On 14 May 1948, the day before the expiration of the British Mandate, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, declared "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel.

[Stevemercer]

I guess Hamas felt they had no choice as more and more Arab countries establish diplomatic relations with Israel and seek to normalise relations. Once Saudi Arabia is onboard, Hamas will be effectively cutt off from funding and negotiations.

 

By striking Israel, and inviting massive retaliation, Hamas expects that Saudi Arabia and the remaining Arab countries will pause diplomatic negotiations (the Israel retaliation is bound to result in atrocities) leaving Hamas in the driving seat.

[SpaceKadet]

13 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

nearly correct 

In 1917, during World War I, British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour sent the Balfour Declaration to Lord Rothschild, a leader of the British Jewish community, that stated that Britain intended for the creation of a Jewish "national home" in Palestine.

In 1918, the Jewish Legion, a group primarily of Zionist volunteers, assisted in the British conquest of Palestine.In 1920, after the Allies conquered the Levant during World War I, the territory was divided between Britain and France under the mandate system, and the British-administered area which included modern day Israel was named Mandatory Palestine. Arab opposition to British rule and Jewish immigration led to the 1920 Palestine riots and the formation of a Jewish militia known as the Haganah (meaning "The Defense" in Hebrew) as an outgrowth of Hashomer, from which the Irgun and Lehi paramilitaries later split off.In 1922, the League of Nations granted Britain the Mandate for Palestine under terms which included the Balfour Declaration with its promise to the Jews, and with similar provisions regarding the Arab Palestinians. The population of the area at this time was predominantly Arab and Muslim, with Jews accounting for about 11%, and Arab Christians about 9.5% of the population.

The Third (1919–23) and Fourth Aliyahs (1924–29) brought an additional 100,000 Jews to Palestine. The rise of Nazism and the increasing persecution of Jews in 1930s Europe led to the Fifth Aliyah, with an influx of a quarter of a million Jews. This was a major cause of the Arab revolt of 1936–39, which was launched as a reaction to continued Jewish immigration and land purchases. The revolt, which also involved a significant amount of intercommunal fighting among the Arabs, was suppressed by British security forces and Zionist militias. Several hundred British security personnel and Jews were killed, while 5,032 Arabs were killed 14,760 were wounded, and 12,622 were detained.An estimated ten percent of the adult male Palestinian Arab population was killed, wounded, imprisoned or exiled. The British introduced restrictions on Jewish immigration to Palestine with the White Paper of 1939. With countries around the world turning away Jewish refugees fleeing the Holocaust, a clandestine movement known as Aliyah Bet was organized to bring Jews to Palestine. By the end of World War II, the Jewish population of Palestine had increased to 31% of the total population.

After World War II, the UK found itself facing a Jewish guerrilla campaign over Jewish immigration restrictions, as well as continued conflict with the Arab community over limit levels. The Haganah joined Irgun and Lehi in an armed struggle against British rule. At the same time, hundreds of thousands of Jewish Holocaust survivors and refugees sought a new life far from their destroyed communities in Europe. The Haganah attempted to bring these refugees to Palestine in a programme called Aliyah Bet in which tens of thousands of Jewish refugees attempted to enter Palestine by ship. Most of the ships were intercepted by the Royal Navy and the refugees rounded up and placed in detention camps in Atlit and Cyprus by the British.

 

On 22 July 1946, Irgun bombed the British administrative headquarters for Palestine, which was housed in the southern wing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem. A total of 91 people of various nationalities were killed and 46 were injured.The hotel was the site of the Secretariat of the Government of Palestine and the Headquarters of the British Armed Forces in Mandatory Palestine and Transjordan.The attack initially had the approval of the Haganah. It was conceived as a response to Operation Agatha (a series of widespread raids, including one on the Jewish Agency, conducted by the British authorities) and was the deadliest directed at the British during the Mandate era. The Jewish insurgency continued throughout the rest of 1946 and 1947 despite concerted efforts by the British military and Palestine Police Force to suppress it. British efforts to mediate a negotiated solution with Jewish and Arab representatives also failed as the Jews were unwilling to accept any solution that did not involve a Jewish state and suggested a partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, while the Arabs were adamant that a Jewish state in any part of Palestine was unacceptable and that the only solution was a unified Palestine under Arab rule. In February 1947, the British referred the Palestine issue to the newly formed United Nations. On 15 May 1947, the General Assembly of the United Nations resolved that the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine be created "to prepare for consideration at the next regular session of the Assembly a report on the question of Palestine."In the Report of the Committee dated 3 September 1947 to the General Assembly, the majority of the Committee in Chapter VI proposed a plan to replace the British Mandate with "an independent Arab State, an independent Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem  the last to be under an International Trusteeship System." Meanwhile, the Jewish insurgency continued and peaked in July 1947, with a series of widespread guerrilla raids culminating in the Sergeants affair, in which the Irgun took two British sergeants hostage as attempted leverage against the planned execution of three Irgun operatives. After the executions were carried out, the Irgun killed the two British soldiers, hanged their bodies from trees, and left a booby trap at the scene which injured a British soldier. The incident caused widespread outrage in the UK.

In September 1947, the British cabinet decided that the Mandate was no longer tenable and to evacuate Palestine. According to Colonial Secretary Arthur Creech Jones, four major factors led to the decision to evacuate Palestine: the inflexibility of Jewish and Arab negotiators who were unwilling to compromise on their core positions over the question of a Jewish state in Palestine, the economic pressure that stationing a large garrison in Palestine to deal with the Jewish insurgency, the possibility of a wider Jewish rebellion, and the possibility of an Arab rebellion put on a British economy already strained by World War II, the "deadly blow to British patience and pride" caused by the hangings of the sergeants, and the mounting criticism the government faced in failing to find a new policy for Palestine in place of the White Paper of 1939.

On 29 November 1947, the General Assembly adopted Resolution 181 (II) recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan of Partition with Economic Union.The plan attached to the resolution was essentially that proposed by the majority of the Committee in the report of 3 September. The Jewish Agency, which was the recognized representative of the Jewish community, accepted the plan, which assigned 55–56% of Mandatory Palestine to the Jews. At the time, the Jews were about a third of the population of Palestine and owned around 6-7% of the land. Arabs constituted the majority of Palestine's population and owned about 20% of the land, with the remainder held by the Mandate authorities or foreign landowners.The Arab League and Arab Higher Committee of Palestine rejected it, and indicated that they would reject any other plan of partition.[160][161] On 1 December 1947, the Arab Higher Committee proclaimed a three-day strike, and riots broke out in Jerusalem.The situation spiraled into a civil war; just two weeks after the UN vote, Colonial Secretary Arthur Creech Jones announced that the British Mandate would end on 15 May 1948, at which point the British would evacuate. As Arab militias and gangs attacked Jewish areas, they were faced mainly by the Haganah, as well as the smaller Irgun and Lehi. In April 1948, the Haganah moved onto the offensive.During this period 250,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled, due to a number of factors.

On 14 May 1948, the day before the expiration of the British Mandate, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, declared "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel.

Very comprehensive, and very accurate.

I admit that I did compress and simplify the historical events somewhat, just for brevity.

[traveller101]

2 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

"Israel's options don't look good"

And Palestinian options don't look good since decades... 

https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/

Indeed! 2008 to 2020

Palestinians killed / injured: 

                     5'600    115'000

Israelis         killed / injured

                        251       5'600

 

[metisdead]

An off topic post about road deaths in Thailand contravening our Community Standards has been removed.

[billd766]

4 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

What are the statistics for road deaths in Thailand for that period ?

The topic as you could see if you bothered is all about Hamas and Israel.

 

 

It is NOT about the statistics for road deaths in Thailand for that period ?

 

If you want  (and need to know that) start another thread somewhere else about it.

[billd766]

6 minutes ago, metisdead said:

An off topic post about road deaths in Thailand contravening our Community Standards has been removed.

Thank you.

[Morch]

57 minutes ago, Stevemercer said:

I guess Hamas felt they had no choice as more and more Arab countries establish diplomatic relations with Israel and seek to normalise relations. Once Saudi Arabia is onboard, Hamas will be effectively cutt off from funding and negotiations.

 

By striking Israel, and inviting massive retaliation, Hamas expects that Saudi Arabia and the remaining Arab countries will pause diplomatic negotiations (the Israel retaliation is bound to result in atrocities) leaving Hamas in the driving seat.

 

The attack was planned long ago - certainly months, some reports citing a year or more.

It was no ad hoc response to am emerging situation.

[placnx]

11 hours ago, novacova said:

Unfortunately this has the propensity to turn into a regional conflict very rapidly with Iran, Lebanon and Syria. Already Israel has taken preemptive action on airstrips in Syria and may implement such action in Iran. Let’s hope Syria doesn’t use their chemical weapons, that would reciprocate an ultimate response from Israel and in turn Israel would most likely lose any support from all nations.

By those wanton killings of civilians, I wonder whether Hamas wanted to provoke Netanyahu into an excessive response that in the end would alienate world opinion. This is not unlike 9/11 in intensity.

 

9/11 caused America to unjustly attack Iraq in 2003 which in the end cost the US trillions and created instability in the Middle East, not to mention the forever war in Afghanistan which finally reaffirmed the notion that foreigners should not take on Afghans.

 

Hamas chose to strike when a far right government is trying to do an end run on the Palestinians by an Abraham Accord with Saudi Arabia, the country that made the most serious proposal for a two-state solution in 2002. At the time US government policy was under the influence of neocons, so their proposal was ignored. The question now is whether this ends up going full circle, though it's hard to imagine turning back the clock when settlements have hugely expanded in the interim.

 

Today being Friday, what will be the response in mosques around the world? Will the Palestinian issue come off the back burner?

[Stevemercer]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

The attack was planned long ago - certainly months, some reports citing a year or more.

It was no ad hoc response to am emerging situation.

Yes, Hamas knew the writing was on the wall following the 2020 Abrahams Accord when the United Arabs Emirate, Bahrain, Sudan and Morroca recognised Israel and normalised relations. Saudi Arabia is the next cab off the rank expressing willingness to normalise relations (pushed by the USA). Such recognition would doom Hamas to being a bit player as other Aran nations followed suite.

 

Saudi recognition of Israel would be a game changer for the whole Middle East.

 

Hamas is willing to sacrifice Arab lives to ensure Saudi Arabia doesn't recognise Israel and to keep the status quo.

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, Stevemercer said:

Yes, Hamas knew the writing was on the wall following the 2020 Abrahams Accord when the United Arabs Emirate, Bahrain, Sudan and Morroca recognised Israel and normalised relations. Saudi Arabia is the next cab off the rank expressing willingness to normalise relations (pushed by the USA). Such recognition would doom Hamas to being a bit player as other Aran nations followed suite.

 

Saudi recognition of Israel would be a game changer for the whole Middle East.

 

Hamas is willing to sacrifice Arab lives to ensure Saudi Arabia doesn't recognise Israel and to keep the status quo.

 

I would associate the long term thinking more with Iranian influence, also having similar interests.

[placnx]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

The attack was planned long ago - certainly months, some reports citing a year or more.

It was no ad hoc response to am emerging situation.

The rapprochement between Israel and Saudi Arabia has been going on for years.