Analysis Israel's options don't look good - but a full-scale military campaign in the near future is inevitable

[Nick Carter icp]

7 minutes ago, placnx said:

Two wrongs don't make a right is another way of expressing what @placeholder said. It is disingenuous to ignore the blockade in place since at least 2007, where Gazans have been kept in a state of near starvation and their economy cannot properly function.

 

That isn't true, the "near starvation" bit .

If the blockade was so strict , how they they manage to get so many rockets into Gaza ?

[Morch]

42 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I think this is the first time I've ever seen you even semi-acknowledge that Palestinians on the West Bank face hardship and oppression. Which is why I'd day your comments about checkpoints are the real nitpicking.

You are patently lying now. You're welcome to check my posting history. You'll find many such acknowledgements, some in detail. Some on topics your partook in (under your current handle or otherwise).

[placnx]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Hyperbole. The situation in the West Bank is not nearly the same as in the Gaza Strip. That you claim it's heading in the same direction doesn't make it so. What you've 'heard' (without providing support) is immaterial.

 

You can go on and on about the blockade. If you refuse to acknowledge the reason it is in place, then your comments are meaningless. Prior to the attack there were 20,000-30,000 Gazans working in Israel everyday.

The 18-20000 is a recent development, about 1% of the Gazan population. Perhaps the hope was to cultivate some as spies.

[Morch]

Just now, placnx said:

The 18-20000 is a recent development, about 1% of the Gazan population. Perhaps the hope was to cultivate some as spies.

It is not a recent development. Palestinians are issued work permit in Israel for years. This is sometimes halted, due to security issues or when Hamas goes on the war-trail. Resumes later on.

[Jim1000]

On 10/13/2023 at 12:00 PM, Morch said:

Israel does not intentionally  target children, or much of the other stuff carried out by Hamas on this attack.

War is never pretty, nor nice. You conflate a terrorist attack with a military one.

 

You forgot about the journalists  March 

[placnx]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

Not all Palestinians on the West Bank have to pass that many checkpoints for everyday stuff. That's simply not true. Also, doubt there's food shortage in the West Bank - again, something you add in without support. The Israelis can obviously cross the border to Israel as they do not normally pose a risk of carrying out terrorist attack, and, surprise - they are Israeli citizens. One can certainly criticize and object to the Israeli illegal settlement effort without getting carried away.

Having to spend hours at checkpoints to commute to one's job or healthcare is not productive for the individual or the economy. Meanwhile settlers come and go on their lovely roads with their extraterritorial (read: 19th C colonial) rights.

[placnx]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

People thought Israel will not retreat from the Sinai Peninsula. It did. People thought Israeli settlement will not be removed from the Gaza Strip. They were. Granted, the West Bank is a different level, so to speak - but wholesale denial of the possibility and precedent does not indicate much honesty or knowledge.

 

As usual, nothing in your post as to what the Palestinians ought to do to promote this, nothing about how they contribute to the ongoing situation, and of course, nothing about the brutalization of their own youths.

Obviously the Palestinians cannot get their freedom without the world imposing a solution on Israel.

[placnx]

29 minutes ago, Morch said:

Disingenuous would to insist on bringing up the blockade over and over again, while ignoring the reasons it's in place. You don't want to accept Hamas got anything to do with it. Don't want to acknowledge Egypt's part. Don't want to discuss how is it possible for Hamas to arm itself despite the blockade, while Gaza is in shambles. All you're interested in is Israel Bad.

 

 

The blockade is collective punishment under international law. Egypt has its own interests which include not annoying Israel or the US.

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, placnx said:

Here's a current story from the Guardian about settlers attacking villages so thet Palestinians leave the area:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/the-most-successful-land-grab-strategy-since-1967-as-settlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory

 

You can find hundreds of stories dating back over several years under the search term "settlers chasing palestinians from their villages", so this is not a new phenomenon. It seems to be increasing in frequency and violence.

Thank you for the link. As said in many of my posts - the Israeli settlement effort in the West Bank is illegal, wrong and in the long run, detrimental to Israel's security. This specific brand of 'settlers' are even worse than the 'mainstream' ones when it comes to dispossessing the locals.

 

The ascent of the current right-wing government certainly gave them a sense of support, further entitlement and confidence that someone got their backs. While maybe not a new phenomenon, it was not quite as bad or intense as it's been this year.

 

This is part of what I tried to convey in other posts - that the current Israeli government is different than previous ones, it's an almost no-holds-barred thing. In comparison to that, the opposition, flaws to some as it may be, would be an improvement. Not a magic solution, and maybe not even benign, but not this bad.

 

I don't know if 'hundreds' of communities were displaced this way, seems a too high figure for whole villages. But that does not change the fact that this is happening. I will add one thing, though - the article discusses bedouins, which are Arab for sure, and technically Palestinian, are normally shunned and looked down at by the Palestinians themselves (same thing with Israeli Arabs and beduins in Israel). Their plight is real enough, for sure, but also somewhat cynically used by the PA.

 

Noticeably you chose, once more, to ignore comments about the blockade etc.

[Morch]

25 minutes ago, placnx said:

Having to spend hours at checkpoints to commute to one's job or healthcare is not productive for the individual or the economy. Meanwhile settlers come and go on their lovely roads with their extraterritorial (read: 19th C colonial) rights.

And that was not denied. The hyperbole you push, was.

[Morch]

23 minutes ago, placnx said:

Obviously the Palestinians cannot get their freedom without the world imposing a solution on Israel.

Obviously you are making a bogus statements instead of actually addressing the post.

[Rimmer]

Some off topic bickering posts and replies in violation of our Community Standards have been removed.

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, placnx said:

The blockade is collective punishment under international law. Egypt has its own interests which include not annoying Israel or the US.

You can keep ignoring the reason the blockade is in place, or minimize Egypt's role in maintaining  it, doesn't change facts.

[placnx]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

Thank you for the link. As said in many of my posts - the Israeli settlement effort in the West Bank is illegal, wrong and in the long run, detrimental to Israel's security. This specific brand of 'settlers' are even worse than the 'mainstream' ones when it comes to dispossessing the locals.

 

The ascent of the current right-wing government certainly gave them a sense of support, further entitlement and confidence that someone got their backs. While maybe not a new phenomenon, it was not quite as bad or intense as it's been this year.

 

This is part of what I tried to convey in other posts - that the current Israeli government is different than previous ones, it's an almost no-holds-barred thing. In comparison to that, the opposition, flaws to some as it may be, would be an improvement. Not a magic solution, and maybe not even benign, but not this bad.

 

I don't know if 'hundreds' of communities were displaced this way, seems a too high figure for whole villages. But that does not change the fact that this is happening. I will add one thing, though - the article discusses bedouins, which are Arab for sure, and technically Palestinian, are normally shunned and looked down at by the Palestinians themselves (same thing with Israeli Arabs and beduins in Israel). Their plight is real enough, for sure, but also somewhat cynically used by the PA.

 

Noticeably you chose, once more, to ignore comments about the blockade etc.

I've responded about the blockade in other posts. There are hundreds of stories, but these may be several stories on the same incident, and there are various levels of seriousness, no doubt.

[placnx]

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

And that was not denied. The hyperbole you push, was.

Please tell me which phrase was hyperbole. 550+ checkpoints is public knowledge.

[placnx]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

Obviously you are making a bogus statements instead of actually addressing the post.

My view that Palestinians cannot get freedom without the world's intervention is a pessimistic and realist assessment.

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, placnx said:

I've responded about the blockade in other posts. There are hundreds of stories, but these may be several stories on the same incident, and there are various levels of seriousness, no doubt.

No, you haven't responded to comments made regarding the blockade, you deflected. It's not the same thing.

 

14 minutes ago, placnx said:

Please tell me which phrase was hyperbole. 550+ checkpoints is public knowledge.

Please read the post again, it's not too complicated.

 

11 minutes ago, placnx said:

My view that Palestinians cannot get freedom without the world's intervention is a pessimistic and realist assessment.

Your 'view' was presented as reply to a post, without actually addressing it's content. Deflection, again.

[placeholder]

20 minutes ago, placnx said:

Please tell me which phrase was hyperbole. 550+ checkpoints is public knowledge.

Apparently because you said that Palestinians have to go through 5 checkpoints daily etc.. It may have been a sloppy statement, but it's typical that Morch nitpicked about that while not acknowledging that checkpoints are a major daily obstacle and source of humiliation and more for Palestinians. Maybe I should specify the old Morch. That was quite an impressive and as far as I can recall, unprecedented condemnation of settler activity on the West Bank that he recently launched.

[Morch]

16 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Apparently because you said that Palestinians have to go through 5 checkpoints daily etc.. It may have been a sloppy statement, but it's typical that Morch nitpicked about that while not acknowledging that checkpoints are a major daily obstacle and source of humiliation and more for Palestinians. Maybe I should specify the old Morch. That was quite an impressive and as far as I can recall, unprecedented condemnation of settler activity on the West Bank that he recently launched.

You are lying, again. I have posted such comments before. Probably on topic you partook in as well (under your current handle, or others). That you need to push this falsehood again, doesn't make it true. Just shows the kind of poster you are.

[placeholder]

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

You are lying, again. I have posted such comments before. Probably on topic you partook in as well (under your current handle, or others). That you need to push this falsehood again, doesn't make it true. Just shows the kind of poster you are.

I would love to see evidence of that. Even recent evidence. It's not like you haven't frequently posted lately.

[Morch]

14 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I would love to see evidence of that. Even recent evidence. It's not like you haven't frequently posted lately.

I would love for you to stop making false accusations, then asking others to provide proof. Recent topics are mostly to do with the fighting in Gaza, and less with the West Bank (your constant attempts to change that notwithstanding). I've been away from the forum for almost two years. You're welcome to go delve there. Stop lying, stop trolling.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, placnx said:

My view that Palestinians cannot get freedom without the world's intervention is a pessimistic and realist assessment.

Define freedom. 

Most want to kick out the Jews and take all of Israel. If they won't leave and most won't well then kill them. Same diff 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

You can keep ignoring the reason the blockade is in place, or minimize Egypt's role in maintaining  it, doesn't change facts.

Aw shucks.

Demonizing Israel is an end in itself.

Facts?

Who needs facts.

Israel demonizers want it to be the Israelis that bombed the Gaza hospital even though they didn't.

Facts and truth aren't what they used to be.

[Yellowtail]

Wrong. While most do want to take all of Israel, they want do not want to kick them out, they want to rape and kill them, and perhaps ransom as many as they can. 

 

 

[Jingthing]

21 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Wrong. While most do want to take all of Israel, they want do not want to kick them out, they want to rape and kill them, and perhaps ransom as many as they can. 

 

 

Not sure about that.

As Hitler learned it's quite a bother to deal with millions of dead bodies.

[placnx]

6 hours ago, Morch said:

People thought Israel will not retreat from the Sinai Peninsula. It did. People thought Israeli settlement will not be removed from the Gaza Strip. They were. Granted, the West Bank is a different level, so to speak - but wholesale denial of the possibility and precedent does not indicate much honesty or knowledge.

 

As usual, nothing in your post as to what the Palestinians ought to do to promote this, nothing about how they contribute to the ongoing situation, and of course, nothing about the brutalization of their own youths.

In response to your several posts with complaints that I did not address your comments above, I felt that the point concerning withdrawals from Sinai & settlements from Gaza was not remarkable enough respond to, much less the piling on - blaming the victims further in your second paragraph.

 

At one earlier post I tried to explain that Palestinians had agency in political organizing and resistance, although that in the earlier pre-1930s was filtered through the predominant focus on Arab nationalism. From the 1930s it's true that they were not as organized as the Zionist side which benefited from the connivance of the British occupiers, as exemplified by Orde Wingate, whose major role you dealt with by ignoring his Palestine activities such as the Special Night Squads, and instead evoking his later career in Burma. Whataboutism?

 

As to your complaints that I did not respond to your blockade comments, please show me which of your voluminous comments you are referring to.

Edited October 22, 2023 by placnx

[placnx]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Apparently because you said that Palestinians have to go through 5 checkpoints daily etc.. It may have been a sloppy statement, but it's typical that Morch nitpicked about that while not acknowledging that checkpoints are a major daily obstacle and source of humiliation and more for Palestinians. Maybe I should specify the old Morch. That was quite an impressive and as far as I can recall, unprecedented condemnation of settler activity on the West Bank that he recently launched.

Actually someone else spoke of navigating 5 checkpoints to buy food (if available). I spoke of the economic damage caused by 550+ checkpoints keeping people from going about their business, thus damaging the Palestinian economy. I believe that I gave Morch a blue heart for criticizing settler activity in that post.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, placnx said:

In response to your several posts with complaints that I did not address your comments above, I felt that the point concerning withdrawals from Sinai & settlements from Gaza was not remarkable enough respond to, much less the piling on - blaming the victims further in your second paragraph.

 

At one earlier post I tried to explain that Palestinians had agency in political organizing and resistance, although that in the earlier pre-1930s was filtered through the predominant focus on Arab nationalism. From the 1930s it's true that they were not as organized as the Zionist side which benefited from the connivance of the British occupiers, as exemplified by Orde Wingate, whose major role you dealt with by ignoring his Palestine activities such as the Special Night Squads, and instead evoking his later career in Burma. Whataboutism?

Are you @thaibeachlovers? Because the post you quoted was a reply to his post, not one of yours. So, once again, deflection.

 

There was no 'blaming of the victims'. There was a comment pointing out that the Palestinians are routinely assigned an essentially passive role in all this by certain posters. If you deny that Palestinians decisions, policy and leadership had and have something to do with their ongoing predicament, than your already one-sided view is far gone.

 

No, the Burma thing was an anecdote, and hardly the crux of my post. On the other hand, you're again making excuses as regards the Palestinian side's inability to organize, unite, and work efficiently for a cause. Instead, you blame it all on others - Israel, Britain, whomever.

[placnx]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

I would love for you to stop making false accusations, then asking others to provide proof. Recent topics are mostly to do with the fighting in Gaza, and less with the West Bank (your constant attempts to change that notwithstanding). I've been away from the forum for almost two years. You're welcome to go delve there. Stop lying, stop trolling.

This war has a counterpart on the West Bank with settler terrorism, and the struggle for Palestinian freedom is becoming universal as demonstrations are happening everywhere, even in countries like Germany that try to suppress anti-Israel speech.

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, placnx said:

This war has a counterpart on the West Bank with settler terrorism, and the struggle for Palestinian freedom is becoming universal as demonstrations are happening everywhere, even in countries like Germany that try to suppress anti-Israel speech.

Mostly demonstrations by Muslim immigrants and stupid kids