Analysis Israel's options don't look good - but a full-scale military campaign in the near future is inevitable

[placnx]

26 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

If they're chanting River to the Sea and you go along with that, that's a shanda.

 

Honestly I think your POV is tragically naive about what most current Free Palestine protesters have in mind for Israeli Jews including the peaceniks.

In a recent post I said that there are fringe people at who may chant River to the Sea amidst thousands (as shown in London by BBC) who are obviously normal people showing humanitarian concern. I do not support the River to the Sea chant or concept. JVP is for peaceful resolution, opposing apartheid, and using BDS to get there.

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

 

Your statement seems obviously false to me.   That you consider it accurate and worth posting, says a lot about your outlook and inability to see all sides of the conflict.

 

You state that the worldwide protests are voicing support for Hamas and in particular the attrocity Hamas just carried out.   ( You then provide vivid details of that attricity to gain emotional support).

 

Anyone who has read diverse sources about the worldwide protests will easily see most protesters were in no way supporting Hamas's actions.

 

OK, a very small minority of protesters would have been pleased by Hamas's actions.  But the vast majority did not.

 

Do you not see that your statement is clearly very inaccurate ?

 

 

   How do you know what the vast majority of Palestinian  supporters thought about Hamas actions ?

   Were there any chants opposing Hamas's actions or any banners opposing Hamas ?

There were Numerous banners telling Israel to stop bombing Gaza , were there any banners telling Hamas to stop bombing Israel ?

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, placnx said:

For the record your generalization about my opinions concerning Hamas. I don't equate inhabitants of the Gaza Strip with Hamas. My concern is humanitarian and for justice for the Palestinians.

 

It's true that the PA is wont to hold elections against any credible opposition, since Abu Mazen's side would lose due to corruption and incompetence. I was just watching a BBC program "Global News Podcast - The Conflict Special Episode 2" in which a newsperson recounted a comment from a high American offical at the time that they would not accept the election results. 

 

I base my comment on what you post. And post after post you decline to address certain issues - such as Hamas being a mainstream force in Palestinian society and politics, Hamas being responsible (at least in part) for the suffering of the people of Gaza and so on. Hamas is not some minor, fringe, low public support group. The full differentiation between Palestinians and Hamas, Gazans with Hamas is not a thing. This is not some outside, alien group. You cannot deal with that, so you deflect. 

 

Like many so-called Palestinian supporters, you can go on and on about Israel, Israeli politics, social issues and whatnot. Somehow similar knowledge is not often put on display when it comes to the side you 'support'. Kinda odd, that.

 

The PA didn't want to hold elections on some occasions, Hamas derailed the effort on others. It's not a one-sided proposition. One basic issue, that related to your comment is this - Hamas is designated a terrorist organization in the USA (and other countries). Expecting them to continue dealing (as in, for instance, aid budgets and funds) with the Palestinians as usual is not realistic. No aid budgets and funds, means an almost immediate collapse of Palestinian society, government and the rest. That's one reason Hamas keeps playing the double game of claiming to be the legitimate government, while in effect letting the PA deal with the outside world. The USA acknowledged the PA (or rather, the PLO as representing the Palestinians people) based on several commitments - among them recognition of Israel, keeping the peace and so forth. Hamas would have none of that, so having it at the helm could certainly cause issues vs. the USA (and other countries).

 

 

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Wait for the "human shield" argument to pop up and how "Hamas is killing his own people"...

Well, by hiding among their own people, they certainly have to accept a lot of responsibility. But, as I've pointed out before, toxic conditions give rise to toxic behavior.

Also, it's a common feature of asymmetric warfare for the side with less resources to hide among its own people. That doesn't make it right. 

Anyway, I was replying to an obviously ridiculouos characterization.

Edited October 23, 2023 by placeholder

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Wait for the "human shield" argument to pop up and how "Hamas is killing his own people"...

 

Human shield? Can't see any other reason for putting rocket launch sites next to schools, UN Buildings and Mosques

[Nick Carter icp]

5 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Wait for the "human shield" argument to pop up and how "Hamas is killing his own people"...

 

  That is because it is true though . 

Israel told the Palestinian  public to vacate the future warzone and Hamas stopped the public  from leaving  , Hamas are using them as Human shields 

[placnx]

20 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

This is the group that you belong to :

 

"In July 2017, the Anti-Defamation League criticized JVP for what it described as "anti-Israel radicalism" and "questionable tactics" to promote its agenda. The ADL said JVP engaged in "harassing LGBT groups", shouting down pro-Israeli speakers at events, and praising convicted Palestinian terrorists such as Odeh and Marwan Barghouti."

 

The political scientist Miriam Elman argues that JVP discourse toward Israel has moved past legitimate criticism of Israeli policies as the organization frequently uses anti-Semitic imagery.^[77]

 

Writing in the Algemeiner Journal, Abraham Miller called JVP "an organization that is neither a voice for peace nor Jewish, except when Jewish traditions can be manipulated to support the Palestinian cause

 

In 2017, JVP was criticized for inviting Rasmea Odeh, a former PFLP member convicted by Israeli military courts for her role in the 1969 Jerusalem supermarket bombing that killed Israelis Edward Joffee and Leon Kanner, as a featured speaker in its biennial conference.^[66][67][68] Odeh was subsequently deported from the United States after pleading guilty to immigration fraud and losing her American citizenship.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Voice_for_Peace

 

Obviously AIPAC, ADL and many Washington think tanks have a visceral hatred of JVP. Why? Because public opinion in the US is turning against what the Israeli government, IDF and settlers are doing to Palestinians. 

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

What was particularly horrific was all those Hamas babies who committed these atrocities. They need more than a good spanking. Bombs away!

 

6 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Wait for the "human shield" argument to pop up and how "Hamas is killing his own people"...

 

That boat already sailed when Hamas leadership said 'sacrifices will be required', from the safety and comfort of their luxury hotels.

 

 

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, placnx said:

Obviously AIPAC, ADL and many Washington think tanks have a visceral hatred of JVP. Why? Because public opinion in the US is turning against what the Israeli government, IDF and settlers are doing to Palestinians. 

 

Maybe, but I don't think there's a wholesale shift in support when it comes to the current situation. Not in the context of current events, at least. This will surely come, but maybe a while yet.

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, placnx said:

Obviously AIPAC, ADL and many Washington think tanks have a visceral hatred of JVP. Why? Because public opinion in the US is turning against what the Israeli government, IDF and settlers are doing to Palestinians. 

 

   Stating facts is now considered to be hatred ?

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

 

That boat already sailed when Hamas leadership said 'sacrifices will be required', from the safety and comfort of their luxury hotels.

 

 

I was replying to this:

You don't think that's a trifle simplistic?

[placnx]

26 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I hope that isn't usually the case but self hating Jews definitely exist and sadly they are not particularly rare.

Yes, this "self-hating Jews" trope rears its ugly head again. It sounds evocative of the Soviet Union where dissidents were said to be crazy and sent to psychiatric institutions. Actually some Jews recognize injustice and crimes committed by the Israeli government, ISF, settlers, and actively oppose that.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, placnx said:

Yes, this "self-hating Jews" trope rears its ugly head again. It sounds evocative of the Soviet Union where dissidents were said to be crazy and sent to psychiatric institutions. Actually some Jews recognize injustice and crimes committed by the Israeli government, ISF, settlers, and actively oppose that.

 

Now, if we only had more Palestinians with a similar set of values, maybe this would go anywhere.

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Now, if we only had more Palestinians with a similar set of values, maybe this would go anywhere.

Deflecting much? Or do you agree with Jingthing that this is about self-hating Jews?

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, placnx said:

These worldwide demonstrations are asking for humanitarian aid and/or ceasefire. BTW I am a member of Jewish Voice for Peace.

 

   Do you need to be Jewish to join the Jewish Voice of Peace or can anyone join ?

Wouldn't  they be a deceptive group if non Jews could join a group with Jewish in the title?

Wouldn't the group be better named  as *People who oppose Zionism * ?

 

[placnx]

23 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Maybe, but I don't think there's a wholesale shift in support when it comes to the current situation. Not in the context of current events, at least. This will surely come, but maybe a while yet.

On Meet the Press last night I heard that 60% of Americans polled support the Palestinians. Sorry I don't know haw the poll qustion was phrased. This poll was probably done before 10/7.

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Deflecting much? Or do you agree with Jingthing that this is about self-hating Jews?

 

I was commenting on the last part of the post I replied to. Do you really need to start pointless arguments on each and every topic?

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, placnx said:

On Meet the Press last night I heard that 60% of Americans polled support the Palestinians. Sorry I don't know haw the poll qustion was phrased. This poll was probably done before 10/7.

 

I was under the impression the comments before were about support among American Jews. 

You do not provide a link.

You do not know if how the poll question was phrased.

You do not know the date of the poll.

 

What was your point, again?

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Morch

[placnx]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

I was under the impression the comments before were about support among American Jews. 

You do not provide a link.

You do not know if how the poll question was phrased.

You do not know the date of the poll.

 

What was your point, again?

 

 

You can watch the program here: https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press-full-episodes

[BarraMarra]

You Don't hold talks with Terroist's there, not Human you defeat them and never let them get a foothold again.

[Jingthing]

30 minutes ago, placnx said:

Yes, this "self-hating Jews" trope rears its ugly head again. It sounds evocative of the Soviet Union where dissidents were said to be crazy and sent to psychiatric institutions. Actually some Jews recognize injustice and crimes committed by the Israeli government, ISF, settlers, and actively oppose that.

You're conflating normal criticism with the genocidal River to the Sea chanters and people that refuse to unequivocally condemn the Hamas terrorist pogrom.

 

Also if you don't acknowledge that self hating Jews exist then we come from different planets 

[Yellowtail]

47 minutes ago, placeholder said:

So, to your way of thinking, justice is a zero sum game. If one party obtains it, that means the other party has been wronged.

 

How do you get there from what I said? 

 

 

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, BarraMarra said:

You Don't hold talks with Terroist's there, not Human you defeat them and never let them get a foothold again.

Exactly.

It's not that they have reasonable demands unless people consider we want to murder you all and erase your nation reasonable. 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, deejai33 said:

 

Your statement seems obviously false to me.   That you consider it accurate and worth posting, says a lot about your outlook and inability to see all sides of the conflict.

 

You state that the worldwide protests are voicing support for Hamas and in particular the attrocity Hamas just carried out.   ( You then provide vivid details of that attricity to gain emotional support).

 

Anyone who has read diverse sources about the worldwide protests will easily see most protesters were in no way supporting Hamas's actions.

 

OK, a very small minority of protesters would have been pleased by Hamas's actions.  But the vast majority did not.

 

Do you not see that your statement is clearly very inaccurate ?

 

Its not a small minority. 

It's the majority. 

[Thorgal]

10 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

How do you get there from what I said? 

 

 

 

Exactly!

[BarraMarra]

I'm not Condoning what Israel is doing and it's unfair to punish the Gaza residents but Hamas has brought this upon Gaza. They are not interested in the safety of their own people and like all the kidnapped men women and children are being used as bargaining chips. Even after all this Hamas are still sending rockets into Israel.

[Morch]

20 minutes ago, placnx said:

You can watch the program here: https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press-full-episodes

 

I could have missed it, but did not notice anything about a poll. If it was there, it was apparently not a major point of discussion.

If I'm wrong, you're welcome to correct me.

[Thorgal]

15 minutes ago, BarraMarra said:

I'm not Condoning what Israel is doing and it's unfair to punish the Gaza residents but Hamas has brought this upon Gaza. They are not interested in the safety of their own people and like all the kidnapped men women and children are being used as bargaining chips. Even after all this Hamas are still sending rockets into Israel.

 

It's known that you don't condone IAF for bombing Gaza civilians. 

 

Gaza could have been surrounded (like it is now) and let the hostages out by negotiations.

All these civilians killings are not needed.

 

It's only for PR of the Israeli government coalition : Likud, Ultra Religious and Ultra Right.

If it was a democratic center-left government : no bombings would happen knowing that you reach nothing, except genocide.

 

Showing Jeremy Corbyn and his left view on this war works like kryptonite to most Zionists.

Calling him (or me) an antisemite is because he isn't in favor, like me, for this war.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Thorgal

[Bkk Brian]

35 minutes ago, placnx said:

On Meet the Press last night I heard that 60% of Americans polled support the Palestinians. Sorry I don't know haw the poll qustion was phrased. This poll was probably done before 10/7.

 

Really, that's strange, it does not reflect the current polls.

 

More than 80 percent of Americans are siding with Israel amid an ongoing war against Hamas in a new Harvard CAPS-Harris Poll shared with The Hill.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4268117-americans-overwhelmingly-support-israel-in-war-with-hamas-poll/

 

Americans strongly support Israel, but there are generational and racial divides

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/13/1205627092/american-support-israel-biden-middle-east-hamas-poll

[BarraMarra]

Thorgal please stay in the other thread not this one. You can post all your nonsense on there not this one.