Solar - General

[patman30]

6 hours ago, Muhendis said:

I looked at NiFe batteries some time ago and the only good thing about them seems to be that they will outlive me.

Far too many negatives especially cost, for general household use.

Also another negative not mentioned is the electrolyte.

I seem to recall there is a requirement to mix up your own electrolyte.

You might like to check out what to do if battery performance decreases for any reason.

"Never happen if you take good care of them" I hear someone muttering but don't forget Murphy's law. Anything that can go wrong will go wrong..

For the domestic home user it really needs to be fit and forget.

if you look into the electrolyte it is very simple to make and not needed often
your comment about performance, well i have the same opinion when it comes to lithium
not to take manufacturers claims as 100% and performance may decrease for any reason
but one thing that is for certain is performance of lithium to point of failure will occur faster than NiFe
as for cost, NiFe work out much cheaper in the long run.
one issue to think about is yes solar sellers will be negative about NiFe (negatives that i easily addressed above)
there are not many businesses today that sell products that guarantee the customer never returns
and nobody is really talking about the general domestic house user, the grid is fine for them.

Note, i made typo in previous post, NiFe come in 1.2v not 48v hence needing 40 cells for a 48v battery

Edited November 1, 2023 by patman30

[patman30]

On 10/30/2023 at 8:02 PM, xtrnuno41 said:

So is it environmental thought or just free "easy" power?

it is not "free"
if govs were concerned as much as yourself
we would all have cheap nuclear power

[MangoKorat]

2 hours ago, patman30 said:

we would all have cheap nuclear power

Don't get me going on that........we should be building hundreds of nuclear power stations now!!

[MangoKorat]

Well, a lot to take in and no doubt a lot more to come but one thing I'm learning is that my solar energy system is going to cost a lot more than I thought.

 

So far it seems that with batteries, you either pay a large fortune for ones that will last 'forever' or you pay a small fortune for ones that will need replacing in 10 years.

 

I wonder if people take account of battery replacement when working out their 'payback period' for their solar?

 

I've talked to a couple of electric car owners and seen a lot of promotional blurb about them plus the general discussion on TV/in the media over the last few years.  The one thing that's never mentioned is battery replacement.  I believe that battery packs start at around £5000 (220,000 baht). I've also heard of people in the UK having to replace batteries at around 5 years old.  Some car manufacturers offer 8 or 10 year warranties on their batteries but I'd like to see the terms and conditions on such warranties.

 

All I know for sure is that I read an article either last year or early this year where a guy's car batteries had given up at just over 5 years old and he was looking at a bill of £6000 to replace them.  There's a strong possibility that many electric cars will be worthless when they need their batteries replacing.

 

Thinking about it, for those that have 8 or 10 year warranties - the situation will be worse.  How much would you want to pay for a 10 year old car that needs a new battery pack?

 

Do owners take account of this when calculating payback? Clearly this also has a bearing on the total 'birth to death' carbon footprint of an electric car. Surely the same applies to a home solar energy system?

Edited November 1, 2023 by MangoKorat

[TimeMachine]

22 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Do owners take account of this when calculating payback

Problem is there are a few unknowns. You can put a lot of effort into calculating wether it's worth solar at current rates. You can tweak figures both ways. For my calculations financially not worth it unless you are pulling some tricks, like doing some work yourself, half price panels, etc. So not impossible to do okay but for your average chap, just focus on energy saving 5 star appliances and be aware of turning things off when not using them. 

 

Do something else with the money. Buy a 1M condo and rent it out. The money you get can pay your bill plus in ten years time your investment will be worth more and not just old batteries you have to throw in the bin.

Edited November 1, 2023 by TimeMachine

[MangoKorat]

1 minute ago, TimeMachine said:

Problem is there are a few unknowns. You can put a lot of effort into calculating wether it's worth solar at current rates. You can tweak figures both ways. For my calculations financially not worth it unless you are pulling some tricks, like doing some work yourself, half price panels, etc. So not impossible to do okay but for your average chap, just focus on energy saving 5 star appliances and be aware of turning things off when not using them. 

Fortunately I'm not doing it for payback per se.  I'm going to install solar for environemental reasons and in order that I can have aircon on whenever I want it without massive electric bills - which also would hopefully contribute to reducing my overall carbon footprint.

 

I will also be doing most of the work myself.

[Muhendis]

1 hour ago, MangoKorat said:

Fortunately I'm not doing it for payback per se.  I'm going to install solar for environemental reasons and in order that I can have aircon on whenever I want it without massive electric bills - which also would hopefully contribute to reducing my overall carbon footprint.

 

I will also be doing most of the work myself.

An abridged history of my installation and the reasons for it.

Arrived from the UK in my new farm house here in Buriram in 2012. The only electrickery available was a temporary/construction supply at about 8 Baht/unit which was totally variable from 175v up to almost 220v. If anyone was doing welding in the village 1km away I would know about it.

I wanted solar for reasons which included consistency of supply and because .... well..... I just wanted it. No thoughts about saving the world although the problems of preserving our world have always been at the back of my mind.

My first installation, being as how I know about such things and don't have unlimited funds, I did myself. 

Batteries (VRLA valve regulated lead acid) rigged for 96v and solar panels were cheap and cheerful from China as was the 8kW inverter which ran very well.

 

Shortcomings were noticed and so the system evolved.

 

Batteries went first after 3 years quickly followed by the inverter. I went through several inverter manufacturers before the one I am now using which has proved very reliable after I changed the internal electronics (I am sometimes referred to as an electronics engineer in the UK, but more often I get referred to in more derogatory terms).

 

Meanwhile the batteries.

The originals were changed after 3 years, for some cheap FLA (flooded lead acid) deep cycle ones from a company in Bangkok. They were a pain in the arse what with automatic watering systems etc. so when they died I went over to Gel  which was a whole world better. They died a few months ago and I am now running on lead carbon. All the dead batteries were turned into cash at the local scrap dealer which returned 10% of the original cost.

I went through the a few iterations of inverters and deliberately steered clear of the all-in-one jobbies and went for separates ie. solar panels to charge controllers to batteries and no grid connection in the inverter. I can still use grid as I sometimes do, by switching over using an ATS (automatic transfer switch) but that is only for the heavy motor loads of my mini rice mill. (I get about 20 tonnes of rice to mill annually).

My solar panes are the original ones and take care of all my needs including my cheap woodworking machines and occasional welding. I use air con. most nights and an electric shower daily. My wife produces the most fantastic pizza's you could imagine from the 2.5kw oven. Apart from that there are all the usual lights, TV  computer, water pumps et al.

To check my solar requirements, I did a spreadsheet on which I listed all my electrical devices and, more importantly, the time of day they would be running. That seemed to tell me I needed 12kw but in real life, 8kw is more than enough. My inverter is a low frequency transformer isolated output. The transformer might get a little warm above 8kw continuous but the electronics which drives it is good for at least 12kw.

For me this is a fun project which seems to have provided a lot of fun, entertainment and given me bragging rites for the foreseeable future.

 

[KhunLA]

Mind boggling the amount of ignorance that still exists, after all the info supplied and shared by those that have and use, solar & EVs.

 

I would be funny, if it wasn't so sad.

[Muhendis]

6 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Mind boggling the amount of ignorance that still exists, after all the info supplied and shared by those that have and use, solar & EVs.

 

I would be funny, if it wasn't so sad.

It is indeed surprising until one looks at the demographics.

The vast majority of people leave school and, for employment, go into shops, offices or factories and have no interest in technology beyond the on/off button or the keyboard.

A very small part of a percentage go to uni. and become engineers.

 

I applaud those non-technical folks who develop an interest in technology with or without the background which was or should have been learned at school. How many of us can remember physics and chemistry we had drummed into us all those years ago at school.

[Skipalongcassidy]

6 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Mind boggling the amount of ignorance that still exists, after all the info supplied and shared by those that have and use, solar & EVs.

 

I would be funny, if it wasn't so sad.

Even funnier is that the solar enthusiasts remain ignorant of the drawbacks and cost of solar power... not just the obvious ones like limited service and initial investment... but the fact that the long term servicing for solar has not been properly planned... ie... renewal of systems over time... proper disposal of batteries and panels (recycle vs replace)... plus the real cost of producing panels and batteries pertaining to energy and resources used to do so... right now solar is not the "end all" that you enthusiasts purport it to be... sorry.

[Crossy]

PUBLIC NOTICE

We all know the various arguments for / against solar, EVs, hydrogen, wind power etc. etc.

 

This thread is NOT the place for these discussions. If you want to argue the pros/cons (and there are both) please start a separate thread. A good place would be in the Green Forum 

https://aseannow.com/forum/422-the-green-forum/

 

Let's keep this thread purely for advice on how to go about implementing a domestic solar generation system.

 

Further off-topic posts will be removed.

[Crossy]

A good place to start your solar journey would be an energy audit.

 

Have a look here for a useful tool.

https://diysolarforum.com/resources/system-energy-audit-and-sizing-spread-sheet.12/

 

There's a lot of very useful information on that forum too, but do note that it's US-centric so much of the mains/grid/regulatory information doesn't apply in sunny Thailand.

 

That forum's owner Will Prowse does some excellent YouTube videos, we have linked to several specific ones in the past. Start watching here 🙂 

https://www.youtube.com/@WillProwse

 

[MangoKorat]

I will be installing solar whatever, I'm aiming for a 10kw system but I want to but quality equipment so if the cost of that is above what I want to spend at the moment, I'll add to it later.  That said, I really hope I can install a full 10kw system form the start. I've learned in other fields though, that the most expensive isn't necessarily the best quailty - some companies live off their names

 

Some suggestions say 2 x 5kw inverters may be better so at least some power is available should one fail but doesn't that work out more expensive - I intend having a grid connection so should always have power available.

 

I'd like to start costing - any recommendations on brand for the main components - batteries, panels and inverter?

 

Also, I understand that batteries may lose some of their efficiency over time - how about panels, does their production fade with time.

 

I'm also not so keen on changing my house design and build it with a single pitch roof in order to accomodate enough panels.  I'm going to be pushing it though - especially with allowing space to access the panels for maintenance/cleaning.  The total roof area (South facing) is likely to be 75 sqm, I can enlarge that a little but some of that will be lost through allowing accces.

 

However, I think I can reduce that loss by fitting the panels to a hinged subframe so they can be raised vertically - allowing access to the row behind once raised.  On the basis that you understand what I mean by that - any reasons why I can't do it? Obvioulsy I'd fit panels with their wiring at the hinged end to minimise movement of the wiring.

 

 

 

 

 

[Crossy]

I would still recommend a ground or car-port mount, particularly if you are DIYing it. Our 12x6m car port (space for 4 cars) has 10.6kWP on it with room for another 2kW or so.

 

Panels should be good for >20years and still have >80% of their rated output.

LiFePO4 batteries, if not abused, should be good for >5,000 cycles and still have >80% of capacity.

 

Generally, the 5kW hybrid inverters are best bang for your buck at the moment, so two running in parallel would be ideal.

 

@Pink has a system very close to what you are looking at.

 

 

[MangoKorat]

1 minute ago, Crossy said:

I would still recommend a ground or car-port mount, particularly if you are DIYing it. Our 12x6m car port (space for 4 cars) has 10.6kWP on it with room for another 2kW or so.

Noted but with the layout of the buildings I'm planning, that wouldn't be possible. I'll give it some thought though.

 

Oh and one related question - the PEA just love their overhead wires. I on the other hand hate them.   Does anyone know if they'll bring their supply on to site underground if I dig the trench and put a conduit in?

 

[Muhendis]

Solar panels loose about 1% per year although there are claims that the newer models are a bit better

Also be aware that the output from solar panels is highly temperature dependent and when hot, will give an output considerably less than under ideal conditions.

The ideal conditions are with a perpendicular light source of 1kw/M² at a temperature of 25ºC with a gentle breeze blowing across them.

The loss of output in Thailand can be as much as 20%.

 

Carbon lead batteries are same as Lithium LiFePO4 batteries in terms of cycles.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Muhendis

[Crossy]

3 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Noted but with the layout of the buildings I'm planning, that wouldn't be possible. I'll give it some thought though.

 

Oh and one related question - the PEA just love their overhead wires. I on the other hand hate them.   Does anyone know if they'll bring their supply on to site underground if I dig the trench and put a conduit in?

 

 

PEA will bring their supply to their chosen pole. What you do after that is your problem, your sparking contactor should be able to do underground. If you do trench then include a pipe for your fibre internet.

[Muhendis]

5 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Noted but with the layout of the buildings I'm planning, that wouldn't be possible. I'll give it some thought though.

If you can arrange your south facing roof pitch to be between 15 to 17 degrees and incorporate a walkway that should do the trick.

[Pink7]

19 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

I will be installing solar whatever, I'm aiming for a 10kw system but I want to but quality equipment so if the cost of that is above what I want to spend at the moment, I'll add to it later.  That said, I really hope I can install a full 10kw system form the start. I've learned in other fields though, that the most expensive isn't necessarily the best quailty - some companies live off their names

I used long time to choose my inverters and ended up with 2 x Growatt spf5000es at 27k or so each delivered on my door. You can save a few thousand going cheaper but for me Growatt was the best value deal from my research. I planed this for last long time so i not push any limits and have a bit more capacity than needed. My solar input is 270v and my near 10kwh panels at it most does 7kwh.

 

First i had the idea to do in 2 or 3 steps but then I conclude that for me much better to get it all ups in one project. All In all I spent more or less exactly 300k for all ( 30 kwh batteries included)

 

Pink

[MangoKorat]

5 minutes ago, Crossy said:

PEA will bring their supply to their chosen pole.

No problem then, I had assumed that they were the same as the UK - responsible up to the meter.  That explains why I had to pay for some cable + fitting when my current house was upgraded.  My supply is at the other side of the road and they said the cable from the meter to the house would need upgrading. PEA guy did it as a moonlight. I wasn't there at the time.

[MangoKorat]

10 minutes ago, Pink7 said:

First i had the idea to do in 2 or 3 steps but then I conclude that for me much better to get it all ups in one project. All In all I spent more or less exactly 300k for all ( 30 kwh batteries included)

The figure that I had in mind was £10,000 at the outset - 440,000 baht at current exchange rates. Sounds like I can get the system I'm looking for within that budget.

 

The battery issue is going to take some deciding on though.

[MangoKorat]

19 minutes ago, Crossy said:

your sparking contactor

That would be me 😁.

 

The PEA are quite funny actually.  One time, after telling them I would be out of the country for 10 weeks, they took my meter away for none payment - believe it or not whilst I was in their office paying the bill!! (I'd only been in the country for 3 hours!!

 

When I got back and found it gone, I called them, they said that's what they do when people don't pay their bill - they'd send their guy out very quickly as they accepted that I'd told them I was going to be away but as it was afternoon, he wouldn't be able to come until first thing the next day.

 

I wanted to go out that night and didn't even have any water with no electric (pump). I cobbled together some insulation and a pair of mole grips and 'reconnected' myself - jumping the wires with a few pieces of 4.0mm cable I had laying around.  I planned on getting up very early the next day and removing my illegal connection.

 

Who was I kidding,? Away for 10 weeks living like a hermit, going out on the town and expecting to be up early????

 

When I woke up around 10am with a severe headache, I found my 4.0mm cable and mole grips next to the gate and my meter in its correct place!!! Nothing was ever said.  My Thai isn't good enough to know exactly but when they came out at a later date to attend to a fault when I was at home - the same guy who re-fitted the meter was either there or the story had gone around the PEA office.  This guy kept saying something that I couldn't work out but he'd taken a pair of mole grips out of his box and was pointing at the meter, making twisting movements with his grips and laughing.😁

Edited November 2, 2023 by MangoKorat

[Muhendis]

Just now, MangoKorat said:

That would be me 😁.

555

Have you budgeted for NYY cables for the underground bits?

[Crossy]

4 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

That would be me 😁.

 

Are you a licenced Thai sparks? (yes, there is such an animal)

 

Just to clarify, PEA will put the meter on their pole, what happens afterwards is your problem.

 

Make sure you install to the Thai regulations (not BS7671), if you want an English language equivalent get a copy of AS/NZ 3000 which is close enough.

[MangoKorat]

14 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Are you a licenced Thai sparks? (yes, there is such an animal)

 

Just to clarify, PEA will put the meter on their pole, what happens afterwards is your problem.

 

Make sure you install to the Thai regulations (not BS7671), if you want an English language equivalent get a copy of AS/NZ 3000 which is close enough.

Obviously not but see my edit above.  I know the PEA guy quite well now and have his phone number. He's agreed to draw up a wiring diagram for me and check it over once done. That was not including the solar system though - I was hoping to get that info here.

 

When I say. that would be me - in no way am I any sort of electrician but I'm a reasonable labourer and can follow a drawing. Correction, I'm actually a grade 1 electrician thinking about some of the electrical work I've seen in Thailand.

 

 

[MangoKorat]

40 minutes ago, Muhendis said:

555

Have you budgeted for NYY cables for the underground bits?

NYY Cable?  I take it you mean armoured?  I know its expensive but my house (consumer unit) will be no further than 20 - 25m from the lane at the rear so not mega bucks.  Although the PEA's cable doesn't come as far as my site at the moment, they will most almost certainly continue their current cable - nearest pole is currently around 100m away.

 

I just hope they don't start talking about transformers or I may have to be totally off grid.

[MangoKorat]

1 hour ago, Muhendis said:

555

Have you budgeted for NYY cables for the underground bits?

Just looked up NYY cable.  I wouldn't use that for an underground supply cable.  The UK regs specify armoured for underground work, I'd take a stab that the Thai regs do too @Crossy???

 

The annoying thing is I have about 30m of twin core armoured here + 50m of 3 phase cable.  I've brought a lot of stuff into Thailand before but the weight of that cable is way too much.

[Muhendis]

7 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Just looked up NYY cable.  I wouldn't use that for an underground supply cable.  The UK regs specify armoured for underground work, I'd take a stab that the Thai regs do too @Crossy???

 

The annoying thing is I have about 30m of twin core armoured here + 50m of 3 phase cable.  I've brought a lot of stuff into Thailand before but the weight of that cable is way too much.

Yeah.

I agree about the armoured cable but those UK regs. don't actually apply to Thailand. What other diy'ers do is to dig a trench, lay an HDPE pipe then feed their cable into that. As Crossy said, if you do that don't forget the internet feed in another smaller diameter pipe.

[MangoKorat]

1 minute ago, Muhendis said:

Yeah.

I agree about the armoured cable but those UK regs. don't actually apply to Thailand. What other diy'ers do is to dig a trench, lay an HDPE pipe then feed their cable into that. As Crossy said, if you do that don't forget the internet feed in another smaller diameter pipe.

Done the same myself to an outbuilding but if I'm building a new house from scratch, I'll use the correct cable.  Considering the total cost of the build, its not worth the saving.

 

I also have to find out if 3 phase is available nearby - doubtful as that will affect things, including the underground cable.  As I said in a previous post, I will be installing a car lift. They are available in single phase but there's far more availability in 3 phase.  Pretty sure I'll end up with single phase though.

[Thaifish]

On 10/30/2023 at 10:10 AM, TimeMachine said:

Im guessing some are hiding their solar as an off grid with the old spinning disk. I wouldn't dare do such a thing. If I recall correctly , a person has stated after being found out they simply put in a smart meter. Hello! Is that person around? Can u confirm. Not enough feedback yet for me to know how aggressive the rules are, especially out in the sticks 

 

 

 

 

From Burriram. I got busted with an old reverse spinning disk meter about 3 years ago. PEA turned up about a week later and installed a one way meter. There was no fines or anything like that. Have just had a digital meter installed now which I have been trying to get one ever since they took the reverse spinning meter away. There is an on-mass roll out of meters happening everywhere around Issan. Scrolling through the digital meter menu it shows the export power reading is greater than the import. Long story but since my Solar installation 10Kw I have got nowhere with PEA purchasing the export power. I am now in the process of bypassing the local PEA and going through their Bangkok headquarters. I doubt I will get anywhere but things are changing ever so slowly here.