King Charles stops short of apology for ‘abhorrent’ colonial violence in Kenya

[JonnyF]

34 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Those are simply boring, repetitive tropes used to criticize the man without the critics alluding to his true 'crime' (in the eyes of the right wing 'patriots') which was marrying a woman of African American heritage. 

 

 

Ah the race card. How novel...

 

Nothing to do with her race, everything to do with her lies, hypocrisy, Woke agenda and general nastiness. If he'd have married Esther Krakue I'd have been over the moon, and she has far more African heritage than the race baiter Markle could ever claim to have. Or Candance Owens, even better (although she's of Caribbean descent not African).

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I agree with much of that but there is another issue, that of the hidden history and the myths that have been inserted in the place of facts.

 

It is not a coincidence that those ignorant of the history of these events are the same people who are offended by the past being addressed and resorting to jingoistic obfuscation.

 

It’s an issue repeated time and time again in the British public response to the history of empire and the impact of empire on modern Britain.

 

 

Countries and nations are like that. You've got to have some more or less agreed upon narrative. Comes with the manual.

 

I agree that it's fair enough to challenge and correct such historical accounts - but seems like there's a trend, more so in Western countries, and maybe more from the Left side of politics, that sometimes borders on the absurd. This, I think, often goes hand in hand with applying modern concepts and ideas to past actions and events.

 

 

[Walker88]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

 

We outlawed it. Never kept slaves, unlike the Americans.

 

We finished paying for it in 2015. Meaning MY taxes helped pay for the end of slavery. Yes, MY taxes. You're welcome.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/17/government-finished-paying-uks-slavery-debt-2015/

 

Something you Brit hating Democrats would do well to remember.

 

 

 

Your trying to use the "But Hitler was nice to his niece" argument.

 

Is it too much just to admit that your country---and most others---have checkered pasts?

 

[Mavideol]

On 11/1/2023 at 8:31 AM, Social Media said:

King Charles has spoken of Britain’s “abhorrent and unjustifiable acts of violence” committed against Kenyans during their fight for independence, but stopped short of an apology despite human rights groups demanding one.

feels deeply sorry and yet no apology, how long did it took him to come to the conclusion of “abhorrent and unjustifiable acts of violence”

[Chomper Higgot]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Countries and nations are like that. You've got to have some more or less agreed upon narrative. Comes with the manual.

 

I agree that it's fair enough to challenge and correct such historical accounts - but seems like there's a trend, more so in Western countries, and maybe more from the Left side of politics, that sometimes borders on the absurd. This, I think, often goes hand in hand with applying modern concepts and ideas to past actions and events.

 

 

This particular history was un earthed by American and British historians (Harvard and Warwick) and then brought to the High Court by the Kenyan victims of British torture.

 

I think it right and proper that the victims of colonial abuse get to correct the historical record.

 

It’s well past the time to retire the myth of a benign and paternalistic British Empire. 

 

 

https://www.leighday.co.uk/news/cases-and-testimonials/cases/the-mau-mau-claims/#:~:text=The Kenyan claimants&text=In October 2012%2C the claimants,the claims were time barred.

[Walker88]

19 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

 

 

Also, I do not much subscribe to the ritual of 'apology' for all long past sins. Sometimes seems like those making much of such apologies are ideologically or politically motivated, rather than actually having much stake in matter involved. As shows go, a public apology is a good one, though. The notion that the 'apology' changes a whole lot, or that a long gone past implies some imperative for eternal self-flagellation, are things I do not agree with. 

 

Accepting responsibility or acknowledging the past are welcome. So is material aid aimed to improve current conditions, all the more so if there's a direct connection to past actions.

 

 

 

People responsible for the crimes should be punished. I was all in favor of hunting down Nazis long after the war, or going after those who committed or ordered atrocities in the former Yugoslavia, or Cambodia, or Rwanda. Personally, and as noted in a current popular thread, I would have also liked justice to have been handed to Menachem Begin. Toss in Carlos the Jackal (serendipitously caught after attending a party in Khartoum), George Habash and a host of others (some of whom did pay the price, like the Flying Ginsu-ing of Ayman al Zawahiri).

 

As for injustices that preceded the lives of anyone now alive, I guess when Mongolia apologizes for Genghis Khan slaughtering 20% of humanity, someone else can have their turn. Until then, just learn from past bad behavior.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

As for injustices that preceded the lives of anyone now alive

The events to which King Charles was referring and which are the subject of this thread happened in the period between the end of WW2 and Kenyan independence in 1962, they are within the living memory of many who were subjected to the atrocities.

 

 

[Walker88]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The events to which King Charles was referring and which are the subject of this thread happened in the period between the end of WW2 and Kenyan independence in 1962, they are within the living memory of many who were subjected to the atrocities.

 

 

My earlier post on the Mau Mau Rebellion noted those dates.

 

 

[Keep Right]

I am not British but as someone who has traveled throughout Kenya and much of Africa, I have witnessed the many extensive projects that the British have built to improve the lives of Africans. I seriously think that many lives would have been lost due to starvation, disease, wars, accidents and others if the British would not have colonized parts of Africa.

[JonnyF]

14 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

 

Your trying to use the "But Hitler was nice to his niece" argument.

 

Ummm, no I'm not.

 

14 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

 

Is it too much just to admit that your country---and most others---have checkered pasts?

 

 

I already stated that most countries have skeletons in the closet. Maybe read the thread first...

[giddyup]

22 minutes ago, Keep Right said:

I am not British but as someone who has traveled throughout Kenya and much of Africa, I have witnessed the many extensive projects that the British have built to improve the lives of Africans. I seriously think that many lives would have been lost due to starvation, disease, wars, accidents and others if the British would not have colonized parts of Africa.

A lot of those projects and infrastructure now falling into ruin because of corruption.

[StayinThailand2much]

2 hours ago, TimeMachine said:

While you are at , free Julian Assange. England is doing no better than China at human rights. Disgusting behaviour continues. 

 

Seconded. Should we know about the past and what went terribly wrong; absolutely! Should representatives of former colonial powers apologise; of course... But how many times for events that happened 60 or 100 years ago, and for things that were done (or suffered) by people who are not longer among the living? Why so much apologising recently for things that happened (a) hundred(s) (of) years ago? - Don't we have enough political and environmental problems today that we should talk about, rather than spending so much time pondering 'what went wrong' such along time ago?

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, StayinThailand2much said:

 

Seconded. Should we know about the past and what went terribly wrong; absolutely! Should representatives of former colonial powers apologise; of course... But how many times for events that happened 60 or 100 years ago, and for things that were done (or suffered) by people who are not longer among the living? Why so much apologising recently for things that happened (a) hundred(s) (of) years ago? - Don't we have enough political and environmental problems today that we should talk about, rather than spending so much time pondering 'what went wrong' such along time ago?

If it’s all in the past and of no real importance, why then the palatable anger from some that a mere apology elicits?

 

Clearly the memory and the representation of the past does matter.

 

Its just some would prefer the sanitized myth to the factual reality.

 

 

[TimeMachine]

7 minutes ago, StayinThailand2much said:

 

Seconded. Should we know about the past and what went terribly wrong; absolutely! Should representatives of former colonial powers apologise; of course... But how many times for events that happened 60 or 100 years ago, and for things that were done (or suffered) by people who are not longer among the living? Why so much apologising recently for things that happened (a) hundred(s) (of) years ago? - Don't we have enough political and environmental problems today that we should talk about, rather than spending so much time pondering 'what went wrong' such along time ago?

Sadly. Yes. Historical pain must be forgotten about. Impossible to compensate everybody done hard by. But it does help to make sure crapiola butter doesn't happen in the future. You know lest we forget sort of thing. But unfortunately new tiktok generations are doomed I'm afraid. Free Julian now!

[candide]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

We outlawed it. Never kept slaves, unlike the Americans.

 

We finished paying for it in 2015. Meaning MY taxes helped pay for the end of slavery. Yes, MY taxes. You're welcome.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/17/government-finished-paying-uks-slavery-debt-2015/

 

Something you Brit hating Democrats would do well to remember.

 

 

And for which purpose have you been paying taxes? To compensate the slave owners! 😃

From your link:

"In the early 1830s, the Government borrowed £20 million (more than £2.4 billion in today's money) to fund the Slavery Abolition Act 1833 and compensate Britons for the loss of their "property" – their possession of women, men and children in the Caribbean."

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

This particular history was un earthed by American and British historians (Harvard and Warwick) and then brought to the High Court by the Kenyan victims of British torture.

 

I think it right and proper that the victims of colonial abuse get to correct the historical record.

 

It’s well past the time to retire the myth of a benign and paternalistic British Empire. 

 

 

https://www.leighday.co.uk/news/cases-and-testimonials/cases/the-mau-mau-claims/#:~:text=The Kenyan claimants&text=In October 2012%2C the claimants,the claims were time barred.

 

I do not necessarily disagree. All the more so when dealing with things that happened withing a 'reasonable' time frame. The issues that distract from that, for me, are the apparent hijacking of such things to support political agendas, implying sweeping 'wrongness' of the apologizing side and so on.

 

Again, the apology 'ceremony' is less significant (and also, an easy way out) then things actually done to compensate, or right wrongs.

 

As for the last part - I did not make any such strong comment, although I do think that many of those former colonies would not necessarily be better off today if history was different. For starters, many of them would not be countries (but that's another can of worms - what with borders drawn as lines on maps etc.).

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Walker88 said:

 

People responsible for the crimes should be punished. I was all in favor of hunting down Nazis long after the war, or going after those who committed or ordered atrocities in the former Yugoslavia, or Cambodia, or Rwanda. Personally, and as noted in a current popular thread, I would have also liked justice to have been handed to Menachem Begin. Toss in Carlos the Jackal (serendipitously caught after attending a party in Khartoum), George Habash and a host of others (some of whom did pay the price, like the Flying Ginsu-ing of Ayman al Zawahiri).

 

As for injustices that preceded the lives of anyone now alive, I guess when Mongolia apologizes for Genghis Khan slaughtering 20% of humanity, someone else can have their turn. Until then, just learn from past bad behavior.

 

As with the previous post from @Chomper Higgot - I do not have much issues with the above. I think, though, that people tend to lump together different categories of evil and wrongdoing, regardless of scale, severity, circumstances and so on. A prime example would be putting genocide level offenders in the same box as 'mere' terrorists. I don't think it's same same.

 

 

[Walker88]

Part of being civilized is coming to terms with history and accepting that things once allowed/tolerated/carried out are unfair, unlawful or outright evil.

 

That isn't "Presentism", where some expect people in the past to have today's morality or be 'cancelled' for it, but rather an admission that civility has new rules, and these rules grant (ideally) all people equal rights to life, liberty, freedom and self-determination.

[Walker88]

37 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

As with the previous post from @Chomper Higgot - I do not have much issues with the above. I think, though, that people tend to lump together different categories of evil and wrongdoing, regardless of scale, severity, circumstances and so on. A prime example would be putting genocide level offenders in the same box as 'mere' terrorists. I don't think it's same same.

 

 

Terrorists are miscreants who would engage in genocide if given the opportunity.

[JonnyF]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

If it’s all in the past and of no real importance, why then the palatable anger from some that a mere apology elicits?

 

Because an apology won't be enough. It will be used as a tool to extract money in the form of reparations. Even then it won't be enough. More money will be demanded from people who were born long after any atrocities occured, to give to people who were also born long after any atrocities occured. It's a massive grift. 

 

[transam]

1 hour ago, Mavideol said:

feels deeply sorry and yet no apology, how long did it took him to come to the conclusion of “abhorrent and unjustifiable acts of violence”

It's "take", but that aside, he doesn't have to apologise for anything, do you see Germany apologising every 5 minutes for their countries atrocities, not so long ago, I don't think so......

UK pays aid every year to Kenya.......

 

https://www.globalcitizen.org/es/content/kenya-success-penny-mordaunt-uk-aid-drought/

 

[Morch]

29 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

Terrorists are miscreants who would engage in genocide if given the opportunity.

 

That's a quite sweeping statement, which cannot be proven. Usually things work by addressing things actually done, and intentions behind them. Assumptions as to what might have been done  and so on aren't part of it. I think most legal system recognize not all crimes are same same.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

38 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Because an apology won't be enough. It will be used as a tool to extract money in the form of reparations. Even then it won't be enough. More money will be demanded from people who were born long after any atrocities occured, to give to people who were also born long after any atrocities occured. It's a massive grift. 

 

You are obviously unaware that the Kenyan victims of British torture already won their court case.

 

Never mind such basic facts, you have your imagined grievance to stroke.

[Mavideol]

2 hours ago, transam said:

It's "take", but that aside, he doesn't have to apologise for anything, do you see Germany apologising every 5 minutes for their countries atrocities, not so long ago, I don't think so......

UK pays aid every year to Kenya.......

 

https://www.globalcitizen.org/es/content/kenya-success-penny-mordaunt-uk-aid-drought/

 

the UK pays... but the UK has nothing to do with it, the royal family should be the ones paying, I am drawing a blank, please remind me how the royal family made their fortune without mentioning hitler as the post is not about him, thks

[Mavideol]

4 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

Ummm, no I'm not.

 

 

I already stated that most countries have skeletons in the closet. Maybe read the thread first...

the UK doesn't have skeletons, more like they have a cemetery 555

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Mavideol said:

the UK doesn't have skeletons, more like they have a cemetery 555

Buried in Hanslope Park:

 

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk/2012/apr/18/britain-destroyed-records-colonial-crimes

 

[Seppius]

1 hour ago, Mavideol said:

the UK doesn't have skeletons, more like they have a cemetery 555

No worse than the French, Spanish, Portuguese, Belgium and Dutch at the time 555

[transam]

1 hour ago, Mavideol said:

the UK doesn't have skeletons, more like they have a cemetery 555

I thought you were American...?  🤔

[transam]

3 minutes ago, Seppius said:

No worse than the French, Spanish, Portuguese, Belgium and Dutch at the time 555

There are those here who conveniently "forget" all that European history of the era.... 🤭

[Chomper Higgot]

45 minutes ago, transam said:

There are those here who conveniently "forget" all that European history of the era.... 🤭

Well it would be off topic whataboutary wouldn’t it?!