Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

I doubt they would want to go to a country that was responsible for their ethnic cleansing. 

I was being sarcastic with that comment. I doubt America would volunteer to take them.

[Jingthing]

Horrible.

Nothing to do with the current war.

Clearly never an IDF policy.

But I get it.

Obsessive excessive hatred of "Zionism" fogs the brain.

 

 

 

 

 

[placeholder]

Hostage Deaths Fuel Israelis’ Doubts About Netanyahu

"Yagil Levy, an Israeli military expert at the Open University of Israel, spoke of “a real gap between the formal rules of engagement and the practice on the battlefield.” Given fear and fatigue, he said, “I’m almost sure these rules of engagement are not honored or implemented by the forces on the ground.”

Mr. Levy said he also saw parallels between the deaths of the three hostages and Israel’s operations in Gaza in general. He believes that the disregard for the formal rules of engagement revealed by the army’s investigation into the deaths will become still more evident after the war, when further investigations are done."

https://archive.ph/C3zAw

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/17/world/middleeast/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hostages-politics.html

 

[Jingthing]

44 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Hostage Deaths Fuel Israelis’ Doubts About Netanyahu

"Yagil Levy, an Israeli military expert at the Open University of Israel, spoke of “a real gap between the formal rules of engagement and the practice on the battlefield.” Given fear and fatigue, he said, “I’m almost sure these rules of engagement are not honored or implemented by the forces on the ground.”

Mr. Levy said he also saw parallels between the deaths of the three hostages and Israel’s operations in Gaza in general. He believes that the disregard for the formal rules of engagement revealed by the army’s investigation into the deaths will become still more evident after the war, when further investigations are done."

https://archive.ph/C3zAw

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/17/world/middleeast/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hostages-politics.html

 

Do you think Hamas will be holding any investigations about their rules of engagement on October 7 including guidelines for raping after this war ends?

[Bkk Brian]

From Israel's Minister of Foreign Affairs, no truer word can be said. The amount of money spent by Hamas that was diverted from the people to better their lives and provide opportunity, instead went on enriching the leaders and building terror networks and tunnels, even stealing Gazans own water pipes to make rockets.

 

"Over the years, Hamas has received billions of dollars in donations.
Instead of investing in infrastructure, schools, hi-tech and hospitals, they built huge terror tunnels, all aimed at killing Israelis.
Every day that Hamas exists is a danger to the people of Gaza, the citizens of Israel and regional stability.
A ceasefire must not be called.
We will fight until we defeat Hamas and until the return of all the hostages."

 

 

[ozimoron]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I'm sure that they do sometimes and that is obviously very wrong. The question is what is the policy. It's very hard to believe that it's the policy of the IDF to not take surrendering prisoners. 

 

Not really, we have the receipts. I believe the evidence, not what I find "hard to believe" because I want not to believe it.

 

We know they shoot children, why would unarmed adults stop them?

[ozimoron]

17 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Do you think Hamas will be holding any investigations about their rules of engagement on October 7 including guidelines for raping after this war ends?

 

Will Israel? They have a very poor track record at investigating and charging their own. 

[Bkk Brian]

New UN Security Council resolution ceasefire to be voted on today according to this. This time however it also calls for the “immediate and unconditional release of all hostages.” Something that was missing from the previous one.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-december-18-2013/#liveblog-entry-3180738

 

Note also that there's been a lot of coverage in the media BBC etc on the tide turning and mentioning David Cameron's and his German counterpart calling for a ceasefire but they all seem to miss the context in which that is said.

 

But let us be clear. We do not believe that calling right now for a general and immediate ceasefire, hoping it somehow becomes permanent, is the way forward. It ignores why Israel is forced to defend itself: Hamas barbarically attacked Israel and still fires rockets to kill Israeli citizens every day. Hamas must lay down its arms.
Let us imagine that we did press Israel to cease all military operations forthwith. Would Hamas stop firing rockets? Would it release the hostages? Would its murderous ideology change? An unsustainable ceasefire, quickly collapsing into further violence, would only make it harder to build the confidence needed for peace. We must also think carefully about the nature of any longer-term peace deal. Even before October 7, it was hard to imagine Hamas as a real partner for peace. After October 7, we can have no illusions. Leaving Hamas in power in Gaza would be a permanent roadblock on the path to a two-state solution.

https://archive.ph/XUPyd

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/david-cameron-gaza-ceasefire-israel-palestine-war-s50x2kscw

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

18 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Not really, we have the receipts. I believe the evidence, not what I find "hard to believe" because I want not to believe it.

 

We know they shoot children, why would unarmed adults stop them?

We have the receipts on your irrational hatred of the very existence of Israel. 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

New UN Security Council resolution ceasefire to be voted on today according to this. This time however it also calls for the “immediate and unconditional release of all hostages.” Something that was missing from the previous one.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-december-18-2013/#liveblog-entry-3180738

 

Note also that there's been a lot of coverage in the media BBC etc on the tide turning and mentioning David Cameron's and his German counterpart calling for a ceasefire but they all seem to miss the context in which that is said.

 

But let us be clear. We do not believe that calling right now for a general and immediate ceasefire, hoping it somehow becomes permanent, is the way forward. It ignores why Israel is forced to defend itself: Hamas barbarically attacked Israel and still fires rockets to kill Israeli citizens every day. Hamas must lay down its arms.
Let us imagine that we did press Israel to cease all military operations forthwith. Would Hamas stop firing rockets? Would it release the hostages? Would its murderous ideology change? An unsustainable ceasefire, quickly collapsing into further violence, would only make it harder to build the confidence needed for peace. We must also think carefully about the nature of any longer-term peace deal. Even before October 7, it was hard to imagine Hamas as a real partner for peace. After October 7, we can have no illusions. Leaving Hamas in power in Gaza would be a permanent roadblock on the path to a two-state solution.

https://archive.ph/XUPyd

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/david-cameron-gaza-ceasefire-israel-palestine-war-s50x2kscw

 

 

 

 

If Hamas released all the hostages immediately would the Israelis reduce their settlements or move toward a 2 state solution? Would they do anything other than continue their rule over Gaza?.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

If Hamas released all the hostages immediately would the Israelis reduce their settlements or move toward a 2 state solution? Would they do anything other than continue their rule over Gaza?.

There is no justification for holding hostages, let alone children, women (who have been sexually abused by them) and men. The release of the hostages should be unconditional. Stop the nonsense

[ozimoron]

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

We have the receipts on your irrational hatred of the very existence of Israel. 

 

You are a one eyes LIAR. I have many times here said I condemn Hamas and support Israel's right to exist. I have every right to consider the actions of Israel to be war crimes just as I consider the actions of Hamas to be war crimes. Start debating the issues and stop attacking your opponents. It's weak as dishwater. You just spend your days flaming everyone who criticises Israel, Pathetic behaviour.

 

I hate Netanyahu and his cabinet just as I hate all war criminals. And the Hamas leaders are included. Maybe time you took the blinkers off.

[Bkk Brian]

21 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Will Israel? They have a very poor track record at investigating and charging their own. 

Its because of the investigation that we are getting the full hard hitting circumstances of the incident.

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Its because of the investigation that we are getting the full hard hitting circumstances of the incident.

 

We didn't in the past when a journalist was killed., WE know there are videos circulating of IDF shooting unarmed civilians. Where are those investigations?

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

We didn't in the past when a journalist was killed., WE know there are videos circulating of IDF shooting unarmed civilians. Where are those investigations?

This is not about the journalist though and the evidence now is that we are.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

This is not about the journalist though and the evidence now is that we are.

 

No it isn't, where are announcements of investigations of IDF shooting Palestinian civilians?  Israel investigating shooting of their own is not credible evidence that Israel is prepared to investigate anything further.

[Jingthing]

16 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

You are a one eyes LIAR. I have many times here said I condemn Hamas and support Israel's right to exist. I have every right to consider the actions of Israel to be war crimes just as I consider the actions of Hamas to be war crimes. Start debating the issues and stop attacking your opponents. It's weak as dishwater. You just spend your days flaming everyone who criticises Israel, Pathetic behaviour.

 

I hate Netanyahu and his cabinet just as I hate all war criminals. And the Hamas leaders are included. Maybe time you took the blinkers off.

There is no way that I would believe that you support Israel's right to exist as a majority Jewish people state. 

 

Your posts reek of extreme anti Zionism. 

 

If you really support the right of Israel to exist with a Jewish majority that makes you pro Zionist which you obviously are not.

 

I also hate Netanyahu but likely for different reasons than the river to the sea brigade.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

No it isn't, where are announcements of investigations of IDF shooting Palestinian civilians?  Israel investigating shooting of their own is not credible evidence that Israel is prepared to investigate anything further.

Here we go again with you and your deflection, here is what you said..............

 

32 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Will Israel? They have a very poor track record at investigating and charging their own. 

 

I addressed your question with evidence "Will Israel?"

 

12 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Its because of the investigation that we are getting the full hard hitting circumstances of the incident.

Here is a link for more on the investigation that they are doing.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67745092

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Here we go again with you and your deflection, here is what you said..............

 

 

I addressed your question with evidence "Will Israel?"

 

Here is a link for more on the investigation that they are doing.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67745092

 

Wake me up when they initiate an investigation into shooting unarmed Palestinian civilians.

[ozimoron]

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

There is no way that I would believe that you support Israel's right to exist as a majority Jewish people state. 

 

Believe what you want. You just can't handle the proposition that somebody might have 2 eyes open. Meantime, don't accuse me of anything you can't support.

 

I can't believe you won't defend every Israeli atrocity without reservation.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

Wake me up when they initiate an investigation into shooting unarmed Palestinian civilians.

Nah............I think your old enough to do that yourself, lame deflection yet again

[Jeff the Chef]

6 hours ago, placeholder said:

Haaretz Today | 

I Want to Believe the IDF Won't Shoot Unarmed Civilians Holding a White Flag

"I don't know how many people believe General Halevi when he says the IDF doesn't shoot those who have surrendered. Israeli soldiers have shot unarmed civilians in a few different incidents that have been caught on camera lately. In Israel, as well as in the West Bank and Gaza. "

https://archive.ph/JsIx1#selection-1015.0-1015.2

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/haaretz-today/2023-12-17/ty-article/.highlight/i-want-to-believe-the-idf-wont-shoot-unarmed-civilians-holding-a-white-flag/0000018c-7896-d301-a3ac-fed78b050000

 

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I'm sure that they do sometimes and that is obviously very wrong. The question is what is the policy. It's very hard to believe that it's the policy of the IDF to not take surrendering prisoners. 

 

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Are we really going back 21 years for incidents such as this, we could do this with both sides and start a new topic what do you think? Because adding context to each one is also necessary. Perhaps I should also go to incidents involving Hamas and their deliberate massacre of unarmed civilians by the hundreds?

 

"There is another side to this story, said former CNN correspondent Linda Scherzer, in a speech to the annual convention of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee in Washington. The grim television images, she said, give a distorted picture of what occurred.

"There was fierce resistance. There were laboratories of destruction in Jenin. It was a breeding ground for terrorism," she said. "Suicide bombers were sent directly into Israel from that camp. Much of the devastation was caused by the booby-trapped buildings. But unfortunately, those pictures are so powerful and create such an impression that I often feel that the world forms its opinions by what it sees, not necessarily by what it hears."

Linda Scherzer said television does not cover the plotting of the Palestinian terrorists. So they escape media scrutiny."

https://www.voanews.com/a/a-13-a-2002-04-25-43-what-67422822/383923.html

The post was in response to the above.

 

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Believe what you want. You just can't handle the proposition that somebody might have 2 eyes open. Meantime, don't accuse me of anything you can't support.

You proved my point.

You'll never post that you support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish people majority state because you obviously don't. 

Israel without such a majority wouldn't be Israel any longer.

So as you clearly don't support that it means that in practical reality you do not support the right of Israel to exist.

It's OK if that's what you think (you have a lot of company) but disingenuous obfuscation of that is super sleazy.

 

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

 

The post was in response to the above.

 

A 20 year old article is not a response to policies that are in place now

[ozimoron]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You proved my point.

You'll never post that you support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish people majority state because you obviously don't. 

Israel without such a majority wouldn't be Israel any longer.

 

 

I have explicitly stated that I believe Israel has a right to exist within sovereign borders. Whether they allow an equal Arab vote is a matter for them. I also believe that Palestinians should likewise have a state with majority Palestinian rule.

 

I would say that I don't support one without the other. That status quo is that Israel has a state and I support that. I do not support the illegal settlements and Israel is weakening their claim to a sovereign state by illegally occupying Palestinian land.

 

Why do you keep lying about what I have previoiously posted?

[Jeff the Chef]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

A 20 year old article is not a response to policies that are in place now

I hope you have a link to said policies? or how did 3 Israeli ex-hostages end up dead, killed by there own forces because they still follow their usual practices of 20 years ago, as shown.

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

I hope you have a link to said policies? or how did 3 Israeli ex-hostages end up dead, killed by there own forces because they still follow their usual practices of 20 years ago, as shown.

Because they broke their own policies, yes I have a link, something you could easily have done yourself but here's some spoon feeding for you.

 

"An IDF official said on Saturday that "the hostages were fired upon against Israel's rules of engagement", according to an initial investigation into the deaths."

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/israeli-hostages-mistakenly-shot-dead-by-idf-waving-white-flags/

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Because they broke their own policies, yes I have a link, something you could easily have done yourself but here's some spoon feeding for you.

 

"An IDF official said on Saturday that "the hostages were fired upon against Israel's rules of engagement", according to an initial investigation into the deaths."

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/israeli-hostages-mistakenly-shot-dead-by-idf-waving-white-flags/

 

Will they investigate this as well?

 

Two Christian women – an elderly mother and her daughter – were shot dead by an Israeli soldier on the grounds of a Catholic church in Gaza City, the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem has said.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/17/israeli-forces-kill-two-christian-women-in-cold-blood-inside-gaza-church

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

Will they investigate this as well?

 

Two Christian women – an elderly mother and her daughter – were shot dead by an Israeli soldier on the grounds of a Catholic church in Gaza City, the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem has said.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/17/israeli-forces-kill-two-christian-women-in-cold-blood-inside-gaza-church

No idea, ask them if they have any evidence, I'm sure Al Jazeera will rustle some up

[ozimoron]

We can hope there is a just outcome from this incident. One can wonder what might not have occurred had there been no video.

 

Israel has said it is opening a military police investigation into the killing of two Palestinians in the West Bank after an Israeli human rights group posted videos that appeared to show Israeli troops killing the men – one who was incapacitated and the second unarmed – during a military raid in a West Bank refugee camp.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/16/west-bank-israel-opens-probe-after-videos-appear-to-show-troops-shooting-palestinians-at-close-range