UK Double Taxation agreement with Thailand? How to prove Wise transfers are UK pension payments?

[CartagenaWarlock]

5 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

mean when you retire in the UK and you have income above £12570 a year then that income is taxed,

Who is paying the tax? It sounds like a personal exemption to me. 

[CartagenaWarlock]

4 hours ago, blackcab said:

2,500 baht per year, using standard allowances and deductions.

So it's very simple. Just pay as Thais do because Thailand has given you shelter and a life to live, which your country was unable to do so. 

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

I have found this link

 

 https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Payroll/Personal-Income-Tax

 

Though how accurate it is I have no idea.

 

Tax rates
The tax rates in 2023 for employment income and hire of work are as follows:

Taxable income (Baht)

Tax rate %

1-150,000                          Exempt

150,001-300,000              5%

300,001-500,000             10%

500,001-750,000              15%

750,001-1,000,000           20%

1,000,001-2,000,000        25%

2,000,001-5,000,000       30%

5,000,001 and over          35%

 

Allowances
The amount of assessable taxable income is net of allowances:

Type of Allowance

Amount

Deductible expenses for income

50% of income                           (capped at 100,000 baht)

Personal allowance                    60,000 baht

Spouses (with no income)         60,000 baht

 

Child (with income not exceeding 30,000 baht)

(Under 20 years of age, regardless of whether he is studying; or under 25 years of age, but he must be studying at a university, either in Thailand or abroad.

 

There is no limit on the number of natural children that can be claimed, but there is a limit of three when claiming adopted children.)

 

30,000 baht per child

Second child born from 2018 onwards

(Same criteria as for “Child Allowance” above)

 

60,000 baht per child    

Health insurance premiums paid by the taxpayer*

Amount actually paid, but not exceeding 25,000 baht

Life insurance premiums paid by the taxpayer*

Amount actually paid, but not exceeding 100,000 baht

Provident Fund contributions (PVF) **

Up to a maximum of 500,000 baht, but not exceeding 15% of income

Retirement mutual fund (RMF) **

Up to a maximum of 500,000 baht, but not exceeding 30% of income

Super Saving Fund (SSF) **

Up to a maximum of 200,000 baht, but not exceeding 30% of income

Home mortgage interest

Amount actually paid, but not exceeding 100,000 baht

Charitable contributions

Amount actually donated, but not exceeding 10% of income after standard deductions and allowances.

There is a double deduction allowed for donations to educational organizations, but not exceeding 10% of income.

It's very accurate but incomplete, it has been the subject of many many discussions on this subject for week now!

 

A key allowance that is missing is one for 190,000 for anyone over age 65, in addition to all the other allowances. This means that tax isn't payable for retirees until they exceed assessible income of over 400k Baht per year and even then it's only at 5% initially.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Mike Lister

[CartagenaWarlock]

2 hours ago, Everyman said:

Paying 7% VAT on all purchases and 100% tax on alcohol is sufficient to satisfy the instinct to reward Thailand with tax money. 

THais also do the same. Nobody is exempted from those taxes but your own country could not give a life and you had to come to Thailand to live and possibly to get a  bride also. 

[The Cyclist]

32 minutes ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

Who is paying the tax? It sounds like a personal exemption to me. 

 

In the UK, every single person has a Personal tax allowance of ( currently ) £12,570. Below £12,570 you pay no tax on earnings.

 

Above £12,570 a year income you pay income tax. It matters not a jot where that income comes from, pensions, employment, or any other that you care to mention.

 

If it is what is known as UK derived income, above the Personal Tax Allowance, you will pay tax in the UK until the day you die.

 

For example

 

Government Pension = 18,000

 

Private Pension = 21,000

 

Total = 39,000

 

Minus PTA = 12,570

 

Taxable income = 26,430 @ 20%. Tax = £5,300 in tax.

 

Add a State Pension to that @ £11,O00 and the figures rise.

 

Tax payable until the day you die.

 

[billd766]

4 hours ago, Raindancer said:

Wise transactions to Thai bank only show money was received from UK.   Which some people need as FTT to provide immigration with evidence of the income method for an annual extension of stay.

 

Wise transfers do not show source  I.e pension funds.

 

As I stated in an earlier reply:  all income tax and pensions from UK, can be obtained from govt website 

How strange.

 

Perhaps your Wise account is different to mine. I use a Wise Borderless account.

 

When I log onto Wise it shows me ALL my transfers, both coming into Wise and where it was sourced from and the amount, and when I transfer it to the BBK bank it shows exactly how much I transferred, the cost of the transfer, the account number it went to and the forex rate that it was transferred at. It also shows the Wise transaction number so that I can track the transfer.

 

Before I make the transfer I click on "What is the reason for Transfer" and then click on "Funds for long term stay in Thailand".

 

It shows up in my BKK bank account as an FTT transfer and also shows on my monthly statement where the funds came from, the amount transferred, the forex rate it was transferred at, and the amount in Thai baht.

 

YMMV

[billd766]

2 hours ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

THais also do the same. Nobody is exempted from those taxes but your own country could not give a life and you had to come to Thailand to live and possibly to get a  bride also. 

Rubbish.

 

I lived and worked in 38 countries across the world and nobody FORCED me to live in Thailand.

 

It was MY choice.

 

I was already married in the UK with a wife and son, a good job and a house to live in.

 

Perhaps that is what happened to YOU. I don't know nor do I care but please only speak for yourself, because you certainly don't speak for me, or anybody that I know.

[Raindancer]

4 minutes ago, billd766 said:

How strange.

 

Perhaps your Wise account is different to mine. I use a Wise Borderless account.

 

When I log onto Wise it shows me ALL my transfers, both coming into Wise and where it was sourced from and the amount, and when I transfer it to the BBK bank it shows exactly how much I transferred, the cost of the transfer, the account number it went to and the forex rate that it was transferred at. It also shows the Wise transaction number so that I can track the transfer.

 

Before I make the transfer I click on "What is the reason for Transfer" and then click on "Funds for long term stay in Thailand".

 

It shows up in my BKK bank account as an FTT transfer and also shows on my monthly statement where the funds came from, the amount transferred, the forex rate it was transferred at, and the amount in Thai baht.

 

YMMV

Thank you for your clarification.  

 

I agree with all you have said.  And that the wise acct shows where the money came from, and in my case it shows the UK bank it was received from  before transferring to my bkk bank.

 

But in my case, there is nothing on the wise statement, which declares it as a UK pension fund/ income transfer to Thailand.

 

And yes, when it arrives in my bkk account, it shows FTT.   But again, no reference to uk pensions.

 

My UK bank account shows all the pension income.   So, I could link all three documents to prove my income on Thailand originated from my UK pensions, if required to do so.

 

And I also have a P60 and the UK govt website details with full pension and tax amount paid. 

 

However, and I am unsure of this, if someone was to pay their uk pensions direct to Wise from their pension fund administrators, it might well show up as income into Wise acct, as a pension payment.

 

I hope that explains what I was originally trying to post.

[Raindancer]

12 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Rubbish.

 

I lived and worked in 38 countries across the world and nobody FORCED me to live in Thailand.

 

It was MY choice.

 

I was already married in the UK with a wife and son, a good job and a house to live in.

 

Perhaps that is what happened to YOU. I don't know nor do I care but please only speak for yourself, because you certainly don't speak for me, or anybody that I know.

Well said. 

[blackcab]

6 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Not my understanding. What allowances and deductions are you applying?

360K equates to 13,450 Baht in income tax.

150K = zero

150 to 300 (5%) = 7450

300 to 360 (10%) = 6000

 

As a single person you would receive an allowance of 100,000 and a deduction of 60,000.

 

Total income would be 12 x 30,000 =360,000. Deduct 100,000 and also deduct 60,000 leaving 200,000.

 

The first 150,000 is not taxed. The remaining 50,000 is taxed at 5 per cent.

 

5 per cent of 50,000 is 2,500 baht.

 

Revenue Department information regarding personal income tax can be found here:

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html

[Mike Lister]

17 minutes ago, blackcab said:

 

As a single person you would receive an allowance of 100,000 and a deduction of 60,000.

 

Total income would be 12 x 30,000 =360,000. Deduct 100,000 and also deduct 60,000 leaving 200,000.

 

The first 150,000 is not taxed. The remaining 50,000 is taxed at 5 per cent.

 

5 per cent of 50,000 is 2,500 baht.

 

Revenue Department information regarding personal income tax can be found here:

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html

The poster is receiving a pension, that means he's over 65 years of age and is eligible to receive the over age 65 allowance of 190,000.

 

190,000 + 60,000 +150,000 = 400,000 whilst income is only 360,000, ergo, no tax is due.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Mike Lister

[blackcab]

14 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The poster is receiving a pension, that means he's over 65 years of age...

 

Sorry, I did not realise that.

[Raindancer]

32 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The poster is receiving a pension, that means he's over 65 years of age and is eligible to receive the over age 65 allowance of 190,000.

 

190,000 + 60,000 +150,000 = 400,000 whilst income is only 360,000, ergo, no tax is due.

Just for the unitiated, could you please explain  +60000. The 190000 allowance, and the first 150000, I understand. 

 

Thank you

Edited November 26, 2023 by Raindancer
Correction

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Raindancer said:

Just for the unitiated, could you please explain + 60000+ 150000.  The 190000 allowance, I understand. 

 

Thank you

For ease and speed of explanation to Blackcab, I simply added together the 60,000 Personal Allowance, 190,000 over age 65 allowance and also the 150,000 zero rated tax band, even though the latter is not actually an allowance or a deduction.

[Raindancer]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

For ease and speed of explanation to Blackcab, I simply added together the 60,000 Personal Allowance, 190,000 over age 65 allowance and also the 150,000 zero rated tax band, even though the latter is not actually an allowance or a deduction.

Many thanks for the information. 😀

 

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

35 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The poster is receiving a pension, that means he's over 65 years of age and is eligible to receive the over age 65 allowance of 190,000.

 

190,000 + 60,000 +150,000 = 400,000 whilst income is only 360,000, ergo, no tax is due.

My understanding is that the 190k allowance applies in place of the 150k allowance (untaxed first income tier), not in addition to it.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

My understanding is that the 190k allowance applies in place of the 150k allowance (untaxed first income tier), not in addition to it.

That is incorrect. The 150,000 refers to the first tax band which is zero rated, it is not a deduction nor an allowance, it is a tax table band.

 

The 190,000 on the other hand is an allowance, reserved for over aged 65 tear olds.

[UKresonant]

55 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The poster is receiving a pension, that means he's over 65 years of age and is eligible to receive the over age 65 allowance of 190,000.

 

190,000 + 60,000 +150,000 = 400,000 whilst income is only 360,000, ergo, no tax is die.

 

I'm can't seem to get a clear calc on this aspect

I thought the 150k was replaced by the 190k at 65? different articles phrase it differently.

 

I was almost thinking it was definitely;-  

30000baht  personal allowance

30000baht  more personal allowance for spouse if they did not file a return themselves

190000baht zero tax if over 65 years of age.

250k p.a. before any tax kicks in 20.8k/month ?

 

So for me (not claiming the spouse bit) I revamped the spreadsheet as 

30k+150k at zero =180000 baht total at zero tax under 65.

30k+190k at zero = 220000 baht total at zero tax over 65.

 

Edit;- I just read another page which suggests

30k+150k at zero =180000 baht total at zero tax under 65.

190k allowance +150k at zero = 330000 baht total at zero tax over 65.

Edited November 26, 2023 by UKresonant

[Raindancer]

5 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

My understanding is that the 190k allowance applies in place of the 150k allowance (untaxed first income tier), not in addition to it.

This might help.

https://www.thethailandlife.com/income-tax-thailand

 

[Mike Lister]

Just now, UKresonant said:

 

I'm can't seem to get a clear calc on this aspect

I thought the 150k was replaced by the 190k at 65? different articles phrase it differently.

 

I was almost thinking it was definitely;-  

30000baht  personal allowance

30000baht  more personal allowance for spouse if they did not file a return themselves

190000baht zero tax if over 65 years of age.

250k p.a. before any tax kicks in 20.8k/month ?

 

So for me (not claiming the spouse bit) I revamped the spreadsheet as 

30k+150k at zero =180000 baht total allowance under 65.

30k+190k at zero = 220000 baht total allowance over 65.

No, the 150k is not replaced by the 190k, it is in addition to and as already said, one is a tax table amount, the other is an exemption/deduction/allowance.

 

There was some discussion about this topic when the first tax thread began, a number of people including myself were unsure because of the wording. Eventually, a form of words from the RD was produced which made it clear that the 190k is in addition to. I should know this because I file a return every year but I couldn't recall how it was input into the system. What I do know is that had it been a replacement and not an addition, I would have paid tax whereas as I did not.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

No, the 150k is not replaced by the 190k, it is in addition to and as already said, one is a tax table amount, the other is an exemption/deduction/allowance.

 

There was some discussion about this topic when the first tax thread began, a number of people including myself were unsure because of the wording. Eventually, a form of words from the RD was produced which made it clear that the 190k is in addition to. I should know this because I file a return every year but I couldn't recall how it was input into the system. What I do know is that had it been a replacement and not an addition, I would have paid tax whereas as I did not.

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't able to find wording elsewhere that was entirely clear.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't able to find wording elsewhere that was entirely clear.

Yes I know, we had the same problem when this started. As I recall, it was a RD document that made it clear, surprisingly! I'll look back in the first thread and see if I can easily spot it.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

10 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

This might help.

https://www.thethailandlife.com/income-tax-thailand

 

Thanks.

[Raindancer]

12 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes I know, we had the same problem when this started. As I recall, it was a RD document that made it clear, surprisingly! I'll look back in the first thread and see if I can easily spot it.

If you scroll down on this link, you will find a reference.

https://www.thethailandlife.com/income-tax-thailand

 

[UKresonant]

18 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

If you scroll down on this link, you will find a reference.

https://www.thethailandlife.com/income-tax-thailand

 

So that seems to be in line with https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/thailand/individual/income-determination#:~:text=In order to support low,amount not exceeding THB 190%2C000.  with clearer wording.

 

30k+30k(spouse) 150k at zero =210000 baht total at zero tax under 65.

So for the OP

190k allowance+30k(spouse) +150k at zero = 370000 baht total at zero tax over 65. 

So OP does indeed seem to be clear of tax!

 

Still obliged to do a tax return? or no need as nothing due, and just keep all the information if asked? 

 

 

 

[Raindancer]

4 minutes ago, UKresonant said:

So that seems to be in line with https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/thailand/individual/income-determination#:~:text=In order to support low,amount not exceeding THB 190%2C000.  with clearer wording.

 

30k+30k(spouse) 150k at zero =210000 baht total at zero tax under 65.

So for the OP

190k allowance+30k(spouse) +150k at zero = 370000 baht total at zero tax over 65. 

So OP does indeed seem to be clear of tax!

 

Still obliged to do a tax return? or no need as nothing due, and just keep all the information if asked? 

 

 

 

Nope:

190k over 65+60k personal allowance + 150k= 400k before paying income tax.

 

https://www.thethailandlife.com/income-tax-thailand

 

But we will not quibble over 30k😀

 

AND....maybe it isn't even going to happen👍🙏🏻

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Raindancer

[ukrules]

15 hours ago, cliveshep said:

Gives me a steady thb30,000 a month

Even if you were single and with zero decutibles your tax amount would be 2500 Baht a year.

 

Here is the tax calculator : https://www.uobam.co.th/en/tax-calculation

 

Note that if you're married then it goes down to zero.

 

As to your original question about WISE, it won't matter where the money comes from if you keep it under the threshold.

However if you start sending much larger amounts then you will cross that threshold and with a little planning between 2 people I suspect you can stretch that out a bit more.

Edited November 26, 2023 by ukrules

[CartagenaWarlock]

10 hours ago, billd766 said:

lived and worked in 38 countries across the world and nobody FORCED me to live in Thailand.

I can see your greatness in living in Thailand, but I don't see you leaving it. If you live in Thailand, you pay taxes. Plain and simple. Nobody is forcing it. Nobody forced anyone to live anywhere, but you cannot live in your home country and possibly cannot also find a bride. If you could, please do so to prove me wrong; otherwise, pay up taxes in Thailand for their generosity in allowing you to live there (albeit like a dollar-earning refugee, and I like this part of Thai immigration laws). 

Edited November 26, 2023 by CartagenaWarlock

[TroubleandGrumpy]

15 hours ago, blackcab said:

As a single person you would receive an allowance of 100,000 and a deduction of 60,000.

Total income would be 12 x 30,000 =360,000. Deduct 100,000 and also deduct 60,000 leaving 200,000.

The first 150,000 is not taxed. The remaining 50,000 is taxed at 5 per cent.

5 per cent of 50,000 is 2,500 baht.

Revenue Department information regarding personal income tax can be found here:

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html

Thanks for that.

 

I can see the 60K deduction, but where is the 100K allowance if I may ask.

[Everyman]

6 hours ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

I can see your greatness in living in Thailand, but I don't see you leaving it. If you live in Thailand, you pay taxes. Plain and simple. Nobody is forcing it. Nobody forced anyone to live anywhere, but you cannot live in your home country and possibly cannot also find a bride. If you could, please do so to prove me wrong; otherwise, pay up taxes in Thailand for their generosity in allowing you to live there (albeit like a dollar-earning refugee, and I like this part of Thai immigration laws). 

 

Why don’t you stop ordering people around and telling them what to do based on your value system and instead, respect theirs.