Really a stupid tax ?

[redwood1]

All of these posts are only repeating the same old boring stuff that has already been talked about a million times in the long tax thread...

[Mike Lister]

Just now, redwood1 said:

All of these posts are only repeating the same old boring stuff that has already been talked about a million times in the long tax thread...

Many are too lazy to read that thread because it contains so much waffle and conjecture. Somebody should set out the simple facts that are known, in a simple post and tell the mods to shut down the thread to comments, as soon as it's been posted.

[sirineou]

24 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Nobody is trying to tax inbound FDI, for goodness sake!

Most countries have a reduced tax rate for people retiring there , another country I looked into retiring at, Greece. has a 7% tax for foreign  tax residents. 

Money coming in to a country and being spend there is an investment. People buy houses . Cars. etc. 

A couple of years ago, I transferred a considerable amount of money into Thailand and my wife bought a small apartment building.

a year ago , we transferred funds a bought a Rai of land in a good location as an investment and a hedge against inflation. 

Would we have done any of that if the money we brought in was taxed?    Would you? 

 

I cant believe that Thai politicians would be as stupid as that.  If they did, (and me and the wife  have talked about that) we would move to Greece. We were there last summer. The biggest reason why we did not, is because Thailand was easy, and less expensive for us.   Our home is already set up here, we have systems set up, all I really have to do is every year do an extension to stay. 

In Greece we would have to get tax ids, file tax returns, and deal with the legendary Greek bureaucracy, 

But if it becomes more expensive in Thailand by virtue of a tax , and more difficult due to the added layer of bureaucracy , we would liquidate what we can ,and go where it makes better sense. 

It would be stupid no to 

Do you think we will be the only ones? 

Hydra island  

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by sirineou

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, sirineou said:

Most countries have a reduced tax rate for people retiring there , another country I looked into retiring at, Greece. has a 7% tax for foreign  tax residents. 

Money coming in to a country and being spend there is an investment. People buy houses . Cars. etc. 

A couple of years ago, I transferred a considerable amount of money into Thailand and my wife bought a small apartment building.

a year ago , we transferred funds a bought a Rai of land in a good location as an investment and a hedge against inflation. 

Would we have done any of that if the money we brought in was taxed?    Would you? 

 

I cant believe that Thai politicians would be as stupid as that.  If they did, (and me and the wife  have talked about that) we would move to Greece. We were there last summer. The biggest reason why we did not, is because Thailand was easy, and less expensive for us.   Our home is already set up here, we have systems set up, all I really have to do is every year do an extension to stay. 

In Greece we would have to get tax ids, file tax returns, and deal with the legendary Greek bureaucracy, 

But if it becomes more expensive in Thailand by virtue of a tax , and more difficult due to the added layer of bureaucracy , we would liquidate what we can ,and go where it makes better sense. 

It would be stupid no to 

Do you think we will be the only ones? 

Hydra island  

 

 

Countries that try to attract retirees, do so because they want the foreign currency they bring into the country. That was certainly true of Thailand when the rules for foreign retirees were first established. Today, Thailand no longer needs that foreign currency anywhere as near as much as they did, the BOT coffers have USD 220 bill. of the stuff swilling around in their coffers. The importance of foreign retirees to the economy is no longer foreign currency so much as it is support of local consumer spending and the property markets. That need is sufficiently strong to where they are going to discount foreigners tax, it's already low enough by comparison to many other countries. And I have no doubt whatsoever that anyone who wants to buy property in Thailand, will continue to be able to do so, without their imported funds being taxed here, AS LONG AS, those funds were taxed or represent savings, in their home country.

[Liverpool Lou]

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

15 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

"sales tax and VAT"

 

What is this "sales tax" that you are bizarrely claiming foreigners pay in addition to VAT?   Perhaps you just trying to make it appear that we pay more than we actually do?

The complete quote, had you bothered to read it in full, is:

 

"Pointing out that foreigners pay sales tax and VAT is also meaningless, everyone pays it so everyone is the same".

I know what the full post was, so why are you claiming that foreigners pay sales tax and VAT.  They do not, no one pays "sales tax" and VAT in Thailand, there is no sales tax in addition to VAT.

[Ralf001]

2 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

I know what the full post was, so why are you claiming that foreigners pay sales tax and VAT.  They do not, no one pays "sales tax" and VAT in Thailand, there is no sales tax in addition to VAT.

 

And at the end of 2023 VAT is supposed to rise back to 10% !

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

I know what the full post was, so why are you claiming that foreigners pay sales tax and VAT.  They do not, no one pays "sales tax" and VAT in Thailand, there is no sales tax in addition to VAT.

Hmm, it turns from a quick google that sales tax here is nothing more than another name for VAT, I merely copied the nomenclature from another post in my response. I'll go outside and self flagellate with some barbed wire and beg the gods for forgiveness. 

 

The forum guard and can now stand down, we thank you for your vigilance in helping posters correct errors in their posts, where would we be without you..

[Tropicalevo]

18 hours ago, clearance said:

What do we get in Thailand paying taxes? Not to mention the fact that we (expats) already pay VAT....

The old 'I pay VAT' is the weakest excuse ever.

Everyone pays VAT - almost everywhere in the world. Even HM the King if he buys a coffee in Starbucks.

VAT is nothing to do with your income. It is to do with the product.

The bit that I find laughable about all of these whinging posts is that we have no idea what the tax rule will be and it is certainly NOT aimed at expats.

It is all fear mongering and complaining.

[sirineou]

11 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Countries that try to attract retirees, do so because they want the foreign currency they bring into the country. That was certainly true of Thailand when the rules for foreign retirees were first established. Today, Thailand no longer needs that foreign currency anywhere as near as much as they did, the BOT coffers have USD 220 bill. of the stuff swilling around in their coffers.

Thailand recorded a Government Budget deficit equal to 4.90 percent of the country's Gross Domestic Product in 2022.

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The importance of foreign retirees to the economy is no longer foreign currency so much as it is support of local consumer spending and the property markets. That need is sufficiently strong to where they are going to discount foreigners tax, it's already low enough by comparison to many other countries. And I have no doubt whatsoever that anyone who wants to buy property in Thailand, will continue to be able to do so, without their imported funds being taxed here, AS LONG AS, those funds were taxed or represent savings, in their home country.

That's what I have also been saying. 

Tax rates for foreignness would be low, to encourage the move, combine that with credit for taxes paid at the home country and for most the tax liability will be zero or low enough to be negligible . 

No one has a clear idea how this thing will be structured, if they please share because I don't. 

But I believe it will be in line with  other countries to remain competitive. 

[Liverpool Lou]

19 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

26 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

I know what the full post was, so why are you claiming that foreigners pay sales tax and VAT.  They do not, no one pays "sales tax" and VAT in Thailand, there is no sales tax in addition to VAT.

Hmm, it turns from a quick google that sales tax here is nothing more than another name for VAT, I merely copied the nomenclature from another post in my response. I'll go outside and self flagellate with some barbed wire and beg the gods for forgiveness. 

"I'll go outside and self flagellate with some barbed wire and beg the gods for forgiveness".

I should think so, too.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Thailand recorded a Government Budget deficit equal to 4.90 percent of the country's Gross Domestic Product in 2022.

That's what I have also been saying. 

Tax rates for foreignness would be low, to encourage the move, combine that with credit for taxes paid at the home country and for most the tax liability will be zero or low enough to be negligible . 

No one has a clear idea how this thing will be structured, if they please share because I don't. 

But I believe it will be in line with  other countries to remain competitive. 

Thailand has posted a budget deficit for many years (see below). The budget deficit for the past three years or so is as a result of covid government support of the population. The IMF has said in recent years that Thailand has ample scope to increase its budget deficit spending. This is because the BOT has significant  foreign currency reserves, plus, deficit spending it far lower than comparable countries.   None of that however has anything to do with foreign currency which is mostly generated by exports.

 

 

 

 

[BenStark]

18 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

18 hours ago, UWEB said:

If they work more than 180 days abroad the are not Thai Tax Resident.

 

That is what I thought and why I asked the question.

 

Not just me that thinks that way then 

 

 

But I believe the Thai nationals that get the money deposited in their accounts are Thai tax residents

[Liverpool Lou]

24 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The forum guard and can now stand down, we thank you for your vigilance in helping posters correct errors in their posts, where would we be without you..

I'm glad that you appreciate that there really should be a modicum of accuracy in posted comments.

 

"...where would we be without you.."

You'd be reading a load of old b0llocks most of the time!

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Liverpool Lou

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

I'm glad that you appreciate that there really should be a modicum of accuracy in posted comments.

 

"...where would we be without you.."

You'd be reading a load of old b0llocks most of the time!

 

Lou, you could have more appropriately picked up and corrected the phrase that I merely copied (pingarondtheworld post), instead you chose to take me to task for using verbiage supplied by a previous poster. Be a good chap and go away and follow somebody else, I'd really rather not put you back onto my ignore list because sometimes, not often mind just sometimes you have something interesting to read and I wouldn't want miss that. Thanks

 

 

[federicoP]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

there are an estimated 3-4 million expats living in Thailand thats 5% of the Thai population. 

Yes, and the main part are workers from Cambodia, Myanmar and Laos, probaby they would be happy to receive some foreing income.

 

Other foreign westerns are here for business and, as per Wikipedia, the number of retirement visa issued in 2018, that can be interested in this law, was around 80.000.

Not exactly a huge number.

[Lacessit]

I will be bringing in enough money for my living expenses for the next two years, prior to January 1.

I am guessing by then, sanity will have prevailed. At the very least, I will have reliable information on whether the tax affects me.

Right now, it is mostly speculation.

 

[UWEB]

2 hours ago, BenStark said:

 

 

But I believe the Thai nationals that get the money deposited in their accounts are Thai tax residents

If you believe go to Church or whatever you prefer. A Resident Status and Tax Resident Status are two different thinks.

[liddelljohn]

11 hours ago, federicoP said:

 

I do not understand why it is contrary to all international law and dual tax treaties, can you explain me better ?

 

 

In my native conuntry (Italy) if you import some money from abroad you have to explain from where this money is coming and, if not covered by a TDA, you must pay tax on it.

Moreover, if you have any investement abroad, also if not generating income, you are obliged to declare it and to pay a small tax.

Frederico ,, its simple , if I have already paid Tax on it in one country I cannot be made to pay Tax again  , so income taxed in say UK   cannot then be taxed again when sent to Thailand   thats international  Tax law 101

[liddelljohn]

10 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

It isn't, he just upset. Any sovereign state can impose whatever tax rules and regulations it wishes, end of story.

Im certainly not upset , why would i be when It wont affect me anyway as Im no longer resident Thailand  ,i no longer stay more than 150 days max but I do understand tax laws after working all over the world for 45 years ,,

[federicoP]

38 minutes ago, liddelljohn said:

Frederico ,, its simple , if I have already paid Tax on it in one country I cannot be made to pay Tax again  , so income taxed in say UK   cannot then be taxed again when sent to Thailand   thats international  Tax law 101

 

And to avoid that a person pays twice the tax on his income, there are the Double Tax Agreements,  usually based on the model issued by OECD or that one issued by UN.

Almost every country has a lot of DTA's, Thailand has DTA with around 60 countries, my country has DTA with around one hundred differrent countries, they are applied normally worldwide without being stamped as "contrary to all international laws".

 

Personally I pay some taxes in Italy and some taxes in Thailand.

That's all, no need to despair or to curse.

[PingRoundTheWorld]

13 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

If you heard this news in your own country, you'd believe and accept it without question. But because this is Thailand you suspect that somebody is going to rip you off and do something underhanded that will cost you money, that's simply paranoia that has np basis in fact or history.

Actually in my home country I'd be just as worried as I have very little trust of the government there. But yes- this is Thailand, and governments here are known to come up with all sorts of ideas - feasible or not - and sort out how to implement them later. The problem isn't that they made a policy announcement - the problem is that they made a policy announcement with zero clarity how exactly it will be implemented and what will the actual requirements be. These aren't things to figure out mid-2024 - people need to plan their tax situation BEFORE the year begins with such drastic change.

[liddelljohn]

6 hours ago, federicoP said:

 

And to avoid that a person pays twice the tax on his income, there are the Double Tax Agreements,  usually based on the model issued by OECD or that one issued by UN.

Almost every country has a lot of DTA's, Thailand has DTA with around 60 countries, my country has DTA with around one hundred differrent countries, they are applied normally worldwide without being stamped as "contrary to all international laws".

 

Personally I pay some taxes in Italy and some taxes in Thailand.

That's all, no need to despair or to curse.

Yes agree with you but , what the Thais are actually proposing could break DTA rules thats whats got people exited and worried

[Ralf001]

1 hour ago, liddelljohn said:

Yes agree with you but , what the Thais are actually proposing could break DTA rules thats whats got people exited and worried

 

 

What are the Thai's proposing ?

 

I thought the specifics have not been outlined yet.

[Mike Lister]

8 hours ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

Actually in my home country I'd be just as worried as I have very little trust of the government there. But yes- this is Thailand, and governments here are known to come up with all sorts of ideas - feasible or not - and sort out how to implement them later. The problem isn't that they made a policy announcement - the problem is that they made a policy announcement with zero clarity how exactly it will be implemented and what will the actual requirements be. These aren't things to figure out mid-2024 - people need to plan their tax situation BEFORE the year begins with such drastic change.

The announcement regarding tax is typical Thai government, they want to push the message out there and then worry about the detail and the mechanics later. Anyone who has been here for any period of time will understand this. The 10k baht giveaway is a classic example, get the message out there and later find out they can't actually afford it hence the original story has to be walked back and a new modified giveaway devised..

[federicoP]

6 hours ago, liddelljohn said:

Yes agree with you but , what the Thais are actually proposing could break DTA rules thats whats got people exited and worried

 

I have never read anything like this in any official or semi-official Thai document.

To tear up international treaties, which are considered a supreme law in many countries and that are discussed and ratified at the highest levels of heads of government or states, an announcement from the Thai Revenue would certainly not be enough.

But if you have more specific information on the fact that Thailand intends to unilaterally abrogate its sixty double taxation treaties, it would be interesting to see it.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, federicoP said:

 

I have never read anything like this in any official or semi-official Thai document.

To tear up international treaties, which are considered a supreme law in many countries and that are discussed and ratified at the highest levels of heads of government or states, an announcement from the Thai Revenue would certainly not be enough.

But if you have more specific information on the fact that Thailand intends to unilaterally abrogate its sixty double taxation treaties, it would be interesting to see it.

Nobody is tearing up anything, calm down and stop reacting to comments that have no basis in fact. Do you not think that if Thailand were going to tear up all its DTA that the likes of Sherrings  or Mazars would be over that news like a rash, the internet would be on fire with the news.

[Mike Lister]

6 hours ago, liddelljohn said:

Yes agree with you but , what the Thais are actually proposing could break DTA rules thats whats got people exited and worried

And I could win the lottery tomorrow.....stop hypothesising and second guessing, it helps nobody..

[federicoP]

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

And I could win the lottery tomorrow.....stop hypothesising and second guessing, it helps nobody..

I fear that many of those who are writing on this forum have very little information, if not zero, about what they are writing about.

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, federicoP said:

I fear that many of those who are writing on this forum have very little information, if not zero, about what they are writing about.

Aint that the truth!

[Ben Zioner]

5 hours ago, Ralf001 said:

 

 

What are the Thai's proposing ?

 

I thought the specifics have not been outlined yet.

They have actually, AFAIK they've said that remittances from overseas income, earned from Jan 1, 2024 must be "factored in" tax returns, in accordance with DTAs. They said that they would modify tax forms accordingly.  So I wouldn't expect anything new until the publication of the 2024 tax return forms.