Israel losing global support over Gaza bombing, Biden says

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Unbelievable, 'incidents' my ****!!

 

 From Amnesty Int.

n February, Amnesty International released a 280-page report showing how Israel was imposing an institutionalized regime of oppression and domination against the Palestinian people wherever it exercised control over their rights, fragmenting and segregating Palestinian citizens of Israel, residents of the OPT and Palestinian refugees denied the right of return. Through massive seizures of land and property, unlawful killings, infliction of serious injuries, forcible transfers, arbitrary restrictions on freedom of movement, and denial of nationality, among other inhuman or inhumane acts, Israeli officials would be responsible for the crime against humanity of apartheid, which falls under the jurisdiction of the ICC.¹

 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

 

 

 

Amnesty International, that's hilarious. 

[Hanaguma]

Neeranam; what is this "right of return" that you mentioned? Can you be specific about what exactly it entails? I have heard this phrase bandied about but nobody wants to define the term itself. 

[Bkk Brian]

12 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Unbelievable, 'incidents' my ****!!

 

Is this just an incident?

 

On 5 August, Israel launched an offensive on the Gaza Strip targeting the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and its armed wing, destroying or damaging some 1,700 Palestinian homes and displacing hundreds of civilians.

 

 From Amnesty Int.

n February, Amnesty International released a 280-page report showing how Israel was imposing an institutionalized regime of oppression and domination against the Palestinian people wherever it exercised control over their rights, fragmenting and segregating Palestinian citizens of Israel, residents of the OPT and Palestinian refugees denied the right of return. Through massive seizures of land and property, unlawful killings, infliction of serious injuries, forcible transfers, arbitrary restrictions on freedom of movement, and denial of nationality, among other inhuman or inhumane acts, Israeli officials would be responsible for the crime against humanity of apartheid, which falls under the jurisdiction of the ICC.¹

 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

 

 

 

Oh look, no wonder you missed out the other "incidents" don't fit your bais narrative do they:

 

5 to 7 August 2022. Hams fired approximately 1,100 rockets towards Israel. Directly at civilians indiscriminately. But you keep going off topic, this is about the Hamas Israel war starting 7th Oct.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Bkk Brian

[coolcarer]

4 hours ago, Neeranam said:

 The gruesome scenes of death and destruction in Gaza are a reminder that for Israel, violence is not incidental, accidental or coincidental. It is part and parcel of its colonial DNA.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/9/israels-war-crimes-in-gaza-are-by-design-not-default

You of course know that Qatar is one of Hamas largest funders and continues that funding to this day. It also funds your favorite rag. A.J.

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, coolcarer said:

You of course know that Qatar is one of Hamas largest funders and continues that funding to this day. It also funds your favorite rag. A.J.

And of course you iknow that Israel actively participated in helping Qatar send funds to Gaza in order to help prop up Hamas. In fact, Qatar asked Israel's permission to do so. 

[coolcarer]

39 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And of course you iknow that Israel actively participated in helping Qatar send funds to Gaza in order to help prop up Hamas. In fact, Qatar asked Israel's permission to do so. 

You are spot on, yes of course I know, considering it's been mentioned and discussed dozens of times since the start of this war then it would have been pretty ignorant of me not to know. Did you also know that Qatar had been sending those funds to Hamas long before they asked Israel to help? Or did you know that those funds which the US was aware of and left it up to Israel to decide on only started in 2018, with the actual cash payments finishing in 2021?

 

Qatar is still making these payments after the 7th Oct without Netanyahu's help as it did before 2018.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, coolcarer said:

You are spot on, yes of course I know, considering it's been mentioned and discussed dozens of times since the start of this war then it would have been pretty ignorant of me not to know. Did you also know that Qatar had been sending those funds to Hamas long before they asked Israel to help? Or did you know that those funds which the US was aware of and left it up to Israel to decide on only started in 2018, with the actual cash payments finishing in 2021?

 

Qatar is still making these payments after the 7th Oct without Netanyahu's help as it did before 2018.

Did you know that Israel was encouraging Qatar to make those payments long before it became actively involved in their distribution? And even defending Qatar's aid to Hamas in Washington?

https://archive.ph/1J248

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html

[coolcarer]

19 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Did you know that Israel was encouraging Qatar to make those payments long before it became actively involved in their distribution? And even defending Qatar's aid to Hamas in Washington?

https://archive.ph/1J248

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html

Isn’t it wonderful we all know so much on this. I guess that’s one of those things when it’s been discussed before. I will leave you to it now, been there and done that. You know how it is.

 

"An Israeli official told CNN that any suggestion that Netanyahu wanted to maintain a “moderately weakened” Hamas was “utterly false” and that he had acted to weaken Hamas “significantly.”
“He led three powerful military operations against Hamas which killed thousands of terrorists and senior Hamas commanders,” the official said. “Successive Israeli governments before, during and after Netanyahu’s governments enabled money to go to Gaza. Not in order to strengthen Hamas but to prevent a humanitarian crisis by supporting critical infrastructure, including water and sewage systems to prevent the spread of disease and enable daily life.”

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-funds-israel-backing-intl/index.html

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

Isn’t it wonderful we all know so much on this. I guess that’s one of those things when it’s been discussed before. I will leave you to it now, been there and done that. You know how it is.

 

"An Israeli official told CNN that any suggestion that Netanyahu wanted to maintain a “moderately weakened” Hamas was “utterly false” and that he had acted to weaken Hamas “significantly.”
“He led three powerful military operations against Hamas which killed thousands of terrorists and senior Hamas commanders,” the official said. “Successive Israeli governments before, during and after Netanyahu’s governments enabled money to go to Gaza. Not in order to strengthen Hamas but to prevent a humanitarian crisis by supporting critical infrastructure, including water and sewage systems to prevent the spread of disease and enable daily life.”

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-funds-israel-backing-intl/index.html

Well, if an Israeli official speaking on behalf of the government says so, who are we to disagree. After all, the Israeli government's concern for Palestinian welfare has been one the hallmarks of its' governance...in opposite world.

 

"As far back as December 2012, Mr. Netanyahu told the prominent Israeli journalist Dan Margalit that it was important to keep Hamas strong, as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Mr. Margalit, in an interview, said that Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state.

The official in the prime minister’s office said Mr. Netanyahu never made this statement. But the prime minister would articulate this idea to others over the years."

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html

[coolcarer]

9 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Well, if an Israeli official speaking on behalf of the government says so, who are we to disagree. After all, the Israeli government's concern for Palestinian welfare has been one the hallmarks of its' governance...in opposite world.

 

"As far back as December 2012, Mr. Netanyahu told the prominent Israeli journalist Dan Margalit that it was important to keep Hamas strong, as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Mr. Margalit, in an interview, said that Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state.

The official in the prime minister’s office said Mr. Netanyahu never made this statement. But the prime minister would articulate this idea to others over the years."

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html

Yea the opposite world where he led 3 powerful military operations against Hamas which killed thousands of terrorists and senior Hamas commanders. Lol

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

Yea the opposite world where he led 3 powerful military operations against Hamas which killed thousands of terrorists and senior Hamas commanders. Lol

Mr. Netanyahu and his security aides slowly began reconsidering their strategy toward the Gaza Strip after several bloody and inconclusive military conflicts there against Hamas...

After one of the conflicts, in 2014, Mr. Netanyahu charted a new course — emphasizing a strategy of trying to “contain” Hamas while Israel focused on Iran’s nuclear program and its proxy armies like Hezbollah.

https://archive.ph/1J248

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html

[coolcarer]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Mr. Netanyahu and his security aides slowly began reconsidering their strategy toward the Gaza Strip after several bloody and inconclusive military conflicts there against Hamas...

After one of the conflicts, in 2014, Mr. Netanyahu charted a new course — emphasizing a strategy of trying to “contain” Hamas while Israel focused on Iran’s nuclear program and its proxy armies like Hezbollah.

https://archive.ph/1J248

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html

Amazing how a post on funding Hamas and A.J. Goes round in circles to debates already had in these topics. keep it up.

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

Amazing how a post on funding Hamas and A.J. Goes round in circles to debates already had in these topics. keep it up.

Given that the NY Times article released significant new information about the funding after such discussions had taken place...what's more, those discussions centered on Israel's responsibility for the Gaza attacks, not on the fact that Israel shares responsibility for the fact that Gazan civilians are being killed by the thousands. The focus in Israel is on how they, the Israelis have suffered because of the government support for Hamas. Not on how the Gazans might be suffering because of Israeli support for Hamas. Not even much in the way of crocodile tears has been shed among Jewish Israelis for the Gazans. Quite the opposite. Much more in the line of they deserve it and worse.

[Bkk Brian]

Another hostage reveals some of her ordeals while being held captive. The full interview will be released later tonight by Israeli TV’s Channel 12.

 

Some snippets bearing in mind this is her experience only of the people she met.

 

"Regarding people living in Gaza, who they really are, everyone there were terrorists, entire families are in the services of Hamas. I realized I was being held captive by a family, why am I being held by a faimliy, why are there children here? Why are there women here?

 

Can't post the whole video as against forum rules, its in Israeli with English subs. Twitter link

 

Released hostage Mia Schem says she was held in Gaza hospital, operated on without painkillers

In a preview clip of an interview scheduled to air on TV’s Channel 12 this evening, Schem, 21, says after she arrived in Gaza, she spent three days lying in a room in a hospital before they moved her to an operating room, where she underwent a procedure with no anesthetic or painkillers.

“I saw the surgeon, I didn’t see his face,” she says. “He looked at me and said ‘You’re not going to go home alive.'”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/released-hostage-mia-schem-says-she-was-held-in-gaza-hospital-operated-on-without-painkillers/

[Morch]

22 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Given that the NY Times article released significant new information about the funding after such discussions had taken place...what's more, those discussions centered on Israel's responsibility for the Gaza attacks, not on the fact that Israel shares responsibility for the fact that Gazan civilians are being killed by the thousands. The focus in Israel is on how they, the Israelis have suffered because of the government support for Hamas. Not on how the Gazans might be suffering because of Israeli support for Hamas. Not even much in the way of crocodile tears has been shed among Jewish Israelis for the Gazans. Quite the opposite. Much more in the line of they deserve it and worse.

 

But there are, in fact, such articles and views published. Not that these are popular positions or that they generate a whole lot of interest, but they are there. Mostly by way of opinion columns from the usual suspects of the Israeli media scenes.

 

I don't know whether you actually expect Israelis to be focused on such views at this time, or whether you're just doing one of your argumentative bits.

 

It's quite normal for people to be more invested in 'their' side during war. Maybe you're setting them expectations (real or not) too high. Is this the norm elsewhere?

[Yellowtail]

I think Israel is at a turning point. I think if they do not finish it with Hamas now. it will be the end for them, particularly if the next US election goes as I assume it will. 

 

What do the people criticizing Israel think they should do? 

[placeholder]

24 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

But there are, in fact, such articles and views published. Not that these are popular positions or that they generate a whole lot of interest, but they are there. Mostly by way of opinion columns from the usual suspects of the Israeli media scenes.

 

I don't know whether you actually expect Israelis to be focused on such views at this time, or whether you're just doing one of your argumentative bits.

 

It's quite normal for people to be more invested in 'their' side during war. Maybe you're setting them expectations (real or not) too high. Is this the norm elsewhere?

Was this information that was, at least, new to me, cited in this thread before? Can you share with the rest of us a source where all this was published before?

As for Israelis naturally being more invested in their side...you'd have a better point if Israeli attitudes hadn't already gotten a lot uglier before the war. Which leads to stuff like this:

 

In Israel, support for the war soars

"Israel has a new soundtrack. On radios, inside bars and stores, Harbu Darbu is constantly playing. The powerful hip hop song has climbed to number one in the country on Spotify and on YouTube since its launch on November 14. The lyrics talk about writing names on the missiles that the army launches against Gaza and about killing “Abu Baklava” (a generic mockery of Arab names) and the models Bella Hadid and Mia Khalifa as well as the singer Dua Lipa for showing solidarity with Palestine. “All the IDF units are coming to ‘Charbu Darbu’ on your heads, oy oy,” is one of the verses with which the duo Ness and Stilla have connected with the prevailing mood in the country, in which the trauma and pain from the massive attack by Hamas on October 7 is interspersed with a general euphoria caused by the advance of Israeli troops in Gaza."

https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-12-11/in-israel-support-for-the-war-soars.html

[Jingthing]

53 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I think Israel is at a turning point. I think if they do not finish it with Hamas now. it will be the end for them, particularly if the next US election goes as I assume it will. 

 

What do the people criticizing Israel think they should do? 

I think you need to be more specific.

There is criticizing Israel with good intentions and then there is DEMONIZING Israel.

The latter are generally River to the Sea types, openly anti-Zionist, meaning they don't think Israel should have ever existed and as it does exist, favor anything that might lead to its demise.

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

I think you need to be more specific.

There is criticizing Israel with good intentions and then there is DEMONIZING Israel.

The latter are generally River to the Sea types, openly anti-Zionist, meaning they don't think Israel should have ever existed and as it does exist, favor anything that might lead to its demise.

I'm sorry. I thought/think in the context of the thread it was clear. 

 

Calling for ceasefires, accusing the IDF of indiscriminately bombing civilians, making excuses for the 10/7 atrocities and drawing a moral equivalence between Hamas and the IDF is not well intended criticism. 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

34 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Was this information that was, at least, new to me, cited in this thread before? Can you share with the rest of us a source where all this was published before?

As for Israelis naturally being more invested in their side...you'd have a better point if Israeli attitudes hadn't already gotten a lot uglier before the war. Which leads to stuff like this:

 

In Israel, support for the war soars

"Israel has a new soundtrack. On radios, inside bars and stores, Harbu Darbu is constantly playing. The powerful hip hop song has climbed to number one in the country on Spotify and on YouTube since its launch on November 14. The lyrics talk about writing names on the missiles that the army launches against Gaza and about killing “Abu Baklava” (a generic mockery of Arab names) and the models Bella Hadid and Mia Khalifa as well as the singer Dua Lipa for showing solidarity with Palestine. “All the IDF units are coming to ‘Charbu Darbu’ on your heads, oy oy,” is one of the verses with which the duo Ness and Stilla have connected with the prevailing mood in the country, in which the trauma and pain from the massive attack by Hamas on October 7 is interspersed with a general euphoria caused by the advance of Israeli troops in Gaza."

https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-12-11/in-israel-support-for-the-war-soars.html

 

Should Israel not support the war? 

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I'm sorry. I thought/think in the context of the thread it was clear. 

 

Calling for ceasefires, accusing the IDF of indiscriminately bombing civilians, making excuses for the 10/7 atrocities and drawing a moral equivalence between Hamas and the IDF is not well intended criticism. 

 

 

Yeah, I get that.

I consider the vast majority of the anti Israeli posts here of the latter variety.

It's kind of weird.

What other country than Israel is constantly being demanded to defend that it even has a right to exist and defend itself?

You get denials. Oh we only want equal rights for all (a one state solution guaranteeing the end of Israel) and/or right of return for the 14 million people who can claim some connection as Palestinians globally (also guaranteeing the end of Israel). It's sad if anyone is fooled by that.

 

There there is the dark irony of the useful idiots for Hamas protest rallies.

We charge you with genocide! (It's a hellish war but it's not genocide) while at same time chanting for genocide of Jews.

 

River to the Sea (Israel gone)

Intifada Revolution

Resistance by any means necessary (support for October 7 atrocities)

Edited December 29, 2023 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Should Israel not support the war? 

It's typical for any country to unify in times of war.

One very encouraging thing happening now in Israel is that more ultra religious Jews who are not required to serve in the IDF (too busy studying Torah) are actually stepping up. 

[Yellowtail]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It's typical for any country to unify in times of war.

Not that typical. 

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

One very encouraging thing happening now in Israel is that more ultra religious Jews who are not required to serve in the IDF (too busy studying Torah) are actually stepping up. 

Does that surprise you? 

[Jingthing]

21 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Not that typical. 

Does that surprise you? 

I think it's typical though obviously not always.

Depends on a lot of factors.

Am I surprised ultra religious Jews are volunteering. Yes I am actually. 

Perhaps you aren't familiar with the long and contentious history of the controversy over not requiring IDF service of that group in Israel. 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Jingthing

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, Photoguy21 said:

It appears that Israel is not supposed to defend itself. If people being targeted are all so good, how come the Gulf states will not let them into their countries?

Anyone that knows the history of the region know the answer to that. I'm not going to give a history lesson here as it would just get deleted, but the information is all out there on the internet. You just have to look for it.

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Anyone that knows the history of the region know the answer to that. I'm not going to give a history lesson here as it would just get deleted, but the information is all out there on the internet. You just have to look for it.

Or you could just admit that the Gulf states all know better than to offer asylum to terrorists. 

[Jeff the Chef]

The Republic of South Africa institutes proceedings against the State of Israel and requests the Court to indicate provisional measures

 

THE HAGUE, 29 December 2023. South Africa today filed an application instituting proceedings against Israel before the International Court of Justice (ICJ), the principal judicial organ of the United Nations, concerning alleged violations by Israel of its obligations under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (the “Genocide Convention”) in relation to Palestinians in the Gaza Strip

 

https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231229-pre-01-00-en.pdf

[Jeff the Chef]

The full application:

 

To the Registrar of the International Court of Justice, the undersigned, being duly authorised by the Government of the Republic of South Africa, state as follows: In accordance with Articles 36 (1) and 40 of the Statute of the Court and Article 38 of the Rules of Court, I have the honour to submit this Application instituting proceedings in the name of the Republic of South Africa (“South Africa”) against the State of Israel (“Israel”). Pursuant to Article 41 of the Statute, the Application includes a request that the Court indicate provisional measures to protect the rights invoked herein from imminent and irreparable loss.

 

 

https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf#page=72

[placeholder]

8 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Should Israel not support the war? 

Yes. There are other ways to go after Hamas.

[rabas]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Anyone that knows the history of the region know the answer to that. I'm not going to give a history lesson here as it would just get deleted, but the information is all out there on the internet. You just have to look for it.

Did that. Found this.

 

"At the same time, Egypt says a mass exodus from Gaza would bring Hamas or other Palestinian militants onto its soil. That might be destabilizing in Sinai, where Egypt's military fought for years against Islamic militants and at one point accused Hamas of backing them." [ref]

 

BTW. It was a rhetorical question.