Israel losing global support over Gaza bombing, Biden says

[Bkk Brian]

A reminder of how Israel is fighting with its hands tied behind its back.

 

 

John Spencer, world's leading expert on urban warfare:
 “There have been false statements, like the use of the term ‘most destructive war of the modern era,’ when it compares maybe a battle against one city in combination to all the cities in Gaza.

There’s no military in the world that has faced the challenge Israel is facing right now in the war against Hamas. 

An entire underground war, where the enemy is using the civilian population as its strategy — to try to get the other side to stop moving forward, for their military strategic objective.
No military has faced a military that is shooting at civilians behind them, in the midst of the operation. Because, of the 13,000 Hamas rockets, 100% of those have been dumb: they do not have precision-guided munition. Nobody’s talking about that statistic.”

 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, rabas said:

Did that. Found this.

 

"At the same time, Egypt says a mass exodus from Gaza would bring Hamas or other Palestinian militants onto its soil. That might be destabilizing in Sinai, where Egypt's military fought for years against Islamic militants and at one point accused Hamas of backing them." [ref]

 

BTW. It was a rhetorical question. 

Anyone that knows the history of the region knows that. 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, rabas said:

Did that. Found this.

 

"At the same time, Egypt says a mass exodus from Gaza would bring Hamas or other Palestinian militants onto its soil. That might be destabilizing in Sinai, where Egypt's military fought for years against Islamic militants and at one point accused Hamas of backing them." [ref]

 

BTW. It was a rhetorical question. 

Do you have a link?

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, rabas said:

Did that. Found this.

 

"At the same time, Egypt says a mass exodus from Gaza would bring Hamas or other Palestinian militants onto its soil. That might be destabilizing in Sinai, where Egypt's military fought for years against Islamic militants and at one point accused Hamas of backing them." [ref]

 

BTW. It was a rhetorical question. 

Not to everyone apparently. 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Yes. There are other ways to go after Hamas.

For example?

 

Maybe a UN resolution, some pride flags and a George Floyd mural? 

 

 

[stevenl]

10 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

I think Israel is at a turning point. I think if they do not finish it with Hamas now. it will be the end for them, particularly if the next US election goes as I assume it will. 

 

What do the people criticizing Israel think they should do? 

Hamas can not be finished off 

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

Hamas can not be finished off 

So, Israel should surrender? 

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

So, Israel should surrender? 

Huh, where did I say or imply that?

Do you honestly believe Hamas can be finished off?

[rabas]

17 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Do you have a link?

It's in my post. Push the place that says [ref]. Or this:

 

https://apnews.com/article/palestinian-jordan-egypt-israel-refugee-502c06d004767d4b64848d878b66bd3d

 

My point to TBL was it's widely known, I don't need to look for some dark web unpostable misinformation. 

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Huh, where did I say or imply that?

Do you honestly believe Hamas can be finished off?

Huh, where did I say or imply that Hamas could be "finished off"? 

[Bkk Brian]

11 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Hamas can not be finished off 

Playing with words, the goal is to dismantle it, its fighters, leaders and infrastructure from Gaza so it no longer has control there. 

 

ISIS was dismantled, it can be done.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Hamas can not be finished off 

That's true. The story line pushed by netanyahu is just that, IMO a story to justify a larger atrocity.

Hamas is a group, yes, it has aims and objectives, yes, but IMO it's mainly an idea, an idea that israel can be forced to allow Palestinians to live in freedom from the oppressor.

As I have said before, they can kill every Hamas they can find, but Hamas, or it's successor will live on in others.

Are they short of recruits? No. Every time they blow children to bits they create a desire for revenge in many that were not previously Hamas.

Can israel kill them all? No. Millions of Palestinians live outside israeli reach.

Will they take revenge outside israel? Do birds fly?

Will israelis live in fear from this point on? IMO yes.

[Yellowtail]

11 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Playing with words, the goal is to dismantle it, its fighters, leaders and infrastructure from Gaza so it no longer has control there. 

 

ISIS was dismantled, it can be done.

It's a typical leftist tactic. They can't be 100% eliminated, so all you can do is appease them. 

 

When I said finish with Hamas, I believe all non-leftists understood that to mean finish with then in the same way the Allies finished with the Nazis.

 

 

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's true. The story line pushed by netanyahu is just that, IMO a story to justify a larger atrocity.

Hamas is a group, yes, it has aims and objectives, yes, but IMO it's mainly an idea, an idea that israel can be forced to allow Palestinians to live in freedom from the oppressor.

As I have said before, they can kill every Hamas they can find, but Hamas, or it's successor will live on in others.

Are they short of recruits? No. Every time they blow children to bits they create a desire for revenge in many that were not previously Hamas.

Can israel kill them all? No. Millions of Palestinians live outside israeli reach.

Will they take revenge outside israel? Do birds fly?

Will israelis live in fear from this point on? IMO yes.

Hmmm, not big on history then? 

[Yellowtail]

21 minutes ago, rabas said:

It's in my post. Push the place that says [ref]. Or this:

 

https://apnews.com/article/palestinian-jordan-egypt-israel-refugee-502c06d004767d4b64848d878b66bd3d

 

My point to TBL was it's widely known, I don't need to look for some dark web unpostable misinformation. 

It was a joke due to a double post, sorry. 

 

But yeah, it's only the West that is stupid enough to intentionally import terrorist. 

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

It's a typical leftist tactic. They can't be 100% eliminated, so all you can do is appease them. 

 

When I said finish with Hamas, I believe all non-leftists understood that to mean finish with then in the same way the Allies finished with the Nazis.

 

 

I don't mind what word is used so long as they are finished in Gaza. Without that there can never be peace. steven is just being argumentative over the use of one word.

[Morch]

10 hours ago, placeholder said:

Was this information that was, at least, new to me, cited in this thread before? Can you share with the rest of us a source where all this was published before?

As for Israelis naturally being more invested in their side...you'd have a better point if Israeli attitudes hadn't already gotten a lot uglier before the war. Which leads to stuff like this:

 

In Israel, support for the war soars

"Israel has a new soundtrack. On radios, inside bars and stores, Harbu Darbu is constantly playing. The powerful hip hop song has climbed to number one in the country on Spotify and on YouTube since its launch on November 14. The lyrics talk about writing names on the missiles that the army launches against Gaza and about killing “Abu Baklava” (a generic mockery of Arab names) and the models Bella Hadid and Mia Khalifa as well as the singer Dua Lipa for showing solidarity with Palestine. “All the IDF units are coming to ‘Charbu Darbu’ on your heads, oy oy,” is one of the verses with which the duo Ness and Stilla have connected with the prevailing mood in the country, in which the trauma and pain from the massive attack by Hamas on October 7 is interspersed with a general euphoria caused by the advance of Israeli troops in Gaza."

https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-12-11/in-israel-support-for-the-war-soars.html

 

What 'information' would that be? About there being multiple views within Israel? That's hardly news, and was referenced on these topics as well. As for your 'share with the rest of us' - give it a break, you're not speaking for anyone, so better stick with 'new to me' which is more in line with what your post displays.

 

Some articles and columns like this already linked in these topics - sometimes even by the anti-Israel-brigade (including, I think, at least one of those referenced in the link provided), for that extra shock value. There are such advertised daily on say, Haaretz, or +972 - usually by the stock 'house' writers who just continue their usual line of commentary, and some op-eds by left wing notables or wannabees. I don't know if they all get translated to the English versions of these venues.

 

I really have no idea what you're own with your second deflection. Why would you expect people to act in a detached, unemotional way to something like 7/10. Way earlier in these topics, I explained about how this effects Israelis, in that being relatively tight-knit, sharing multiple social circles, and being a small country, this tragedy hit closer than what it conveyed. Come the second or third step of separation, and boom - someone got hurt. Makes things way more personal.

 

The article you linked does a good job of highlighting some stuff, not mentioning others. It's understandable that if you depend on such you'll come to certain conclusions. For example, while it does actually reference Israeli academics and left wingers commenting critically on things, it does so as if these view are detached from the fabric of Israeli views. Also missing is mention of the hostages families protests vs. the government - which are gaining momentum as the war drags on.

[Morch]

10 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

I'm sorry. I thought/think in the context of the thread it was clear. 

 

Calling for ceasefires, accusing the IDF of indiscriminately bombing civilians, making excuses for the 10/7 atrocities and drawing a moral equivalence between Hamas and the IDF is not well intended criticism. 

 

 

 

There are calls for a ceasefire from families of those held hostage.

[stevenl]

29 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Huh, where did I say or imply that Hamas could be "finished off"? 

My mistake, I thought this was a mature conversation.

[Neeranam]

34 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Hamas can not be finished off 

Israel can't eliminate Hamas, and to be frank don't really care as their objective is not this. The survival of Hamas gives them an excuse for their traditional 'mowing the lawn', which has been going on for decades. 

When foreign powers intervene to remove a particular political entity the populace loses its voting rights and the ability to express political opinions, leading to dissatisfaction and internal conflict.

Also, the marginalized party might either become more radical or resort to violence in response to being denied political freedom. 

Look at Afghanistan, where the Taliban was ousted in 2001,  this exemplifies how such interventions can lead to prolonged instability and a resurgence of the marginalized group.

[James105]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

Look at Afghanistan, where the Taliban was ousted in 2001,  this exemplifies how such interventions can lead to prolonged instability and a resurgence of the marginalized group.

 

Look at Germany/Japan where their respective leaderships were ousted after WW2, this exemplifies how such interventions can lead to prolonged peace, stability and prosperity for everyone. 

[Neeranam]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

There are calls for a ceasefire from families of those held hostage.

Obviously. 

There are calls for a ceasefire from families who are being slaughtered in Gaza. 

There are calls for a ceasefire from most of the world. 

The only ones not wanting a ceasefire are those who are currently killing all the Gazans children, or for some sick reason the USA who voted against it. . 

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Yes. There are other ways to go after Hamas.

 

Such as? Says who?

 

And again, why wouldn't you expect a strong emotional response ?

[Morch]

30 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's true. The story line pushed by netanyahu is just that, IMO a story to justify a larger atrocity.

Hamas is a group, yes, it has aims and objectives, yes, but IMO it's mainly an idea, an idea that israel can be forced to allow Palestinians to live in freedom from the oppressor.

As I have said before, they can kill every Hamas they can find, but Hamas, or it's successor will live on in others.

Are they short of recruits? No. Every time they blow children to bits they create a desire for revenge in many that were not previously Hamas.

Can israel kill them all? No. Millions of Palestinians live outside israeli reach.

Will they take revenge outside israel? Do birds fly?

Will israelis live in fear from this point on? IMO yes.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

Hamas's agenda is about destroying Israel. You can try misrepresenting it to your old heart's content.

 

Your grasp of history is shaky.

 

Germany. Japan. ISIS. Fatah.

 

Examples of forceful interventions which either changed the 'idea', made in irrelevant, or whatever.

 

Your constant comments about Israelis living in fear (as if you care), miss the point that the Palestinians' lot is worse (not that you care about that either).

 

[Morch]

20 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Israel can't eliminate Hamas, and to be frank don't really care as their objective is not this. The survival of Hamas gives them an excuse for their traditional 'mowing the lawn', which has been going on for decades. 

When foreign powers intervene to remove a particular political entity the populace loses its voting rights and the ability to express political opinions, leading to dissatisfaction and internal conflict.

Also, the marginalized party might either become more radical or resort to violence in response to being denied political freedom. 

Look at Afghanistan, where the Taliban was ousted in 2001,  this exemplifies how such interventions can lead to prolonged instability and a resurgence of the marginalized group.

 

Germany.

Japan.

Isis.

Fatah.

 

 

[Morch]

14 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Obviously. 

There are calls for a ceasefire from families who are being slaughtered in Gaza. 

There are calls for a ceasefire from most of the world. 

The only ones not wanting a ceasefire are those who are currently killing all the Gazans children, or for some sick reason the USA who voted against it. . 

 

 

Obviously how? Do you understand the context this was posted in? Or did you simply do you usual hijack job?

 

Sick is what your post is.

[Yellowtail]

18 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I don't mind what word is used so long as they are finished in Gaza. Without that there can never be peace. steven is just being argumentative over the use of one word.

But were that true. I think that he, like a lot of the "Israel is the oppressor" crowd, like to argue that because Hamas can't be 100% eliminated, the only thing to do is appease them. 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

29 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

There are calls for a ceasefire from families of those held hostage.

What does that have to do with what I said?

[Neeranam]

17 minutes ago, James105 said:

 

Look at Germany/Japan where their respective leaderships were ousted after WW2, this exemplifies how such interventions can lead to prolonged peace, stability and prosperity for everyone. 

Comparing these cases to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or the situation in Afghanistan oversimplifies the complexities involved in interventions. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has different objectives and faces distinct challenges. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is deeply rooted in historical grievances, and the elimination of Hamas alone cannot guarantee a lasting solution without addressing underlying issues and achieving a just and sustainable resolution.

Eliminating Hamas specific may lead to a power vacuum, internal strife, and the rise of new radical groups. The dissolution of an existing order without a well-thought-out and inclusive transition plan can exacerbate tensions and contribute to prolonged instability.

[Yellowtail]

31 minutes ago, stevenl said:

My mistake, I thought this was a mature conversation.

No, if you really wanted to have a conversation you would have actually addressed what I said rather than throwing out a meaningless one liner.

 

What should Israel do?