Usufruct

[Aforek]

Hello 

 

I am retired, married with a Thai woman and  I live in a house

I would like to have an usufruct , or something which allows me to live all my life in my house, even if my wife dies before me

 

Somebody in an other forum says that he has his name in his wife's chanot, and that it's enough

or is a  paper signed by my wife who says that I can stay all my life is enough ?  

I trust my wife and my inlaw, but I don't know what will happen in the future , so I prefer to have a document 

Thank you 

[Henryford]

You think a piece of paper will help if the next owner wants you out?

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Henryford said:

You think a piece of paper will help if the next owner wants you out?

Yes, I do, an usufruct will help ensure that doesn't happen. Despite what you may think, the law does support foreigners and Thai's.

[Henryford]

Sure it is legal but they could make your life hell so you would be begging to leave.

[Mike Lister]

10 minutes ago, Henryford said:

Sure it is legal but they could make your life hell so you would be begging to leave.

You been watching too many horror flicks, stop trying to scare people with the things that "could" happen.

[mfd101]

I'm no expert on this but you certainly need more than just a piece of paper with your wife's signature on it.

 

Inquiry at the local Land Office would be a first step. Lawyer thereafter, I think.

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

@Aforek if non Thai, you can not own the land the house sits on.  So would (legally) need to be sold and or transferred, within one year to a 'trusted' Thai.  

 

Why my daughter's name is on all house paperwork, w/the wife's and beneficiary on wife's will.  As is my wife on daughter's will.   All sorted with wills.

 

No lawyers needed unless you don't trust the people involved.  Usufructs & wills are quite easy to register without lawyers.

 

I/we've done numerous times.

Edited December 28, 2023 by KhunLA

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

@Aforek if non Thai, you can not own the land the house sits on.  So would need to be sold and or transferred, within one year to a 'trusted' Thai.  

 

Why my daughter's name is on all house paperwork, w/the wife's and beneficiary on wife's will.  As is my wife on daughter's will.   All sorted with wills.

Agreed, we have done the same.

 

@mfd101 Agreed also, the usufruct must be registered at the Amphur and recorded on the channotte.

[johnnybgood]

There was an erudite poster named Mobi  (rip)  who did a great job researching and sharing usufruct info with a thread in  Real Estate, Housing, House and Land Ownership.

I did a quick search on here, but I gave up. Maybe someone can find the thread. Good luck

[digbeth]

having a usufruct would also protect you in that no one would normally touch a chanote with conditions attached like usufruct in case where a relative were to got a hold of the chanote and tried to sell/mortgage the land off.

 

but make sure that the conditions of the usufruct is that both parties are required to give consent to cancel the usufruct, otherwise if the landowner can cancel the usufruct and kick you out without you having a say

[Aforek]

45 minutes ago, Henryford said:

Sure it is legal but they could make your life hell so you would be begging to leave.

For this , I am sure that my in- law family will allow me; I think more of my daughter in law'son, who is now about 4 years old; in twenty years, if his mother dies, what will he do ? My house is very comfortable 

[Aforek]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes, I do, an usufruct will help ensure that doesn't happen. Despite what you may think, the law does support foreigners and Thai's.

Did you do it yourself ? 

[jaideedave]

56 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

I'm no expert on this but you certainly need more than just a piece of paper with your wife's signature on it.

 

Inquiry at the local Land Office would be a first step. Lawyer thereafter, I think.

 

 

When I bought my house in Pattaya I had a 30 year lease drawn up. I hired a lawyer to have the house put in my step daughters name.All registered at the Land Office. My name is on the chanote as the lessee. About as bullet proof as you can get IMHO.

 

 

 

 

[donmuang37]

When we bought our house in 2002, my wife gave me a 30 year prepaid lease which was registered on the chanote (deed) at the Land Office.  The lady who register it spoke good English and told me that I was covered since in was on the deed.  If my wife were to die before me, it would go to her daughter who would have to honor the lease.  I have good relations with her, my stepdaughter, an so I'm not worried.  Maybe that would work for you.  Good luck!

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, Aforek said:

Did you do it yourself ? 

No, but only because we had the usufruct written at the time we bought our house and our lawyer managed the whole thing. But it's easy enough to do, it used to cost 60 baht to write the usufruct at the Amphur, today it may be slightly more, but still, 60 baht!

[KhunLA]

6 minutes ago, donmuang37 said:

When we bought our house in 2002, my wife gave me a 30 year prepaid lease which was registered on the chanote (deed) at the Land Office.  The lady who register it spoke good English and told me that I was covered since in was on the deed.  If my wife were to die before me, it would go to her daughter who would have to honor the lease.  I have good relations with her, my stepdaughter, an so I'm not worried.  Maybe that would work for you.  Good luck!

If not mistaken (usually not), a wife can cancel your lease 1 year after divorce.   Unless of course, a 3rd party holds a lease from you, though that would have had to be agreed upon by you wife originally.

 

There really is no true protection, IF, they or anyone don't want you in the house.   Why renting, or condos are always recommended or the simple realization, "never invest more than you can loose"

 

Uncommon common sense.

 

When someone (usually a noob) asks .. "how can I protect myself" ... best advice is rent or condo. 

 

To ask = lack of trust.   Best to avoid than to take the risk.   If not acceptable to GF/wife .... NEXT

Edited December 28, 2023 by KhunLA

[CharlieH]

MOVED to Real Estate forum

[Ken444]

Good Idea , had mine done at the land office

 

[UKJASE]

not all land offices will give one tho i believe......  i paid tea money for my usurfruct, but it wasnt too much, and was worth it for peace of mind.  my name was put onto the back of the chanote 

 

you and your wife should speak to the land office and see what they will do

[Dogmatix]

I did a usufruct on house and land in Bkk. It depends on the Land Office whether they will play ball. Some object to foreigners getting a usufruct from any Thai, including their wives or they might just make a fuss to get a bribe. In Bangkok it wasn’t too difficult but we had to be interviewed by the head or deputy head of registrations who said something like he knew the farang had paid for the land.

 

The benefit of having any encumbrance registered on the chanote is that it makes impossible to mortgage or sell the land. It is not too expensive and does offer you some protection. 

[Luuk Chaai]

20 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Agreed, we have done the same.

 

@mfd101 Agreed also, the usufruct must be registered at the Amphur and recorded on the channotte.

 House and land are both in my wife will and will transfer to her sister that lives very comfortably in the U.S ..  for the Usufruct     I am listed on the bottom line on the Chanote   ...... and I just happen to keep it under lock and key along with the  Blue and Yellow house books

 

[Adiudon]

I did a bit of reading earlier this month on usafructs and Thai procedures following the death of a wife or girlfriend while living in her house and found out what I thought could be a problem for some people.

If the girlfriend was childless and died without a will the assets would transfer to her parents, if the girlfriend had 1 child then the assets would be divided 50/50 between the child and parents, 2 or more children then divided equally between them only.

Attached is a downloadable usafruct form, fill it in take it to your local land office and go from there would be my first step.

 

usufruct_draft_contract.pdf

[orchidfan]

I think that this is all fine for a person on Retirement Visa/'Extension who can renew every year of their remaining life, irrespective of "wife" being alive or not.

But not so for those if us on Marriage extensions (and perhaps unable to switch to "Retirement ") whereupon, if the wife dies, they can only stay until the end of current extension....despite wills, chanotes or usefruct(?) documents.

 

Correct or not ?

[Sigma6]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:38 AM, UKJASE said:

not all land offices will give one tho i believe......  i paid tea money for my usurfruct, but it wasnt too much, and was worth it for peace of mind.  my name was put onto the back of the chanote 

 

you and your wife should speak to the land office and see what they will do

 

Was that in Hua Hin?

What ballpark figure??

[timendres]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:00 AM, Mike Lister said:

You been watching too many horror flicks, stop trying to scare people with the things that "could" happen.

 

Don't need horror flicks. Just AseanNow: 

 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, timendres said:

 

Don't need horror flicks. Just AseanNow: 

 

Whether or not this is a rare exception or an every day event is of course down to conjecture. But I have to say I've never heard of one similar in real life, neither does anyone I know. And whether the story quoted is a wind up or has unique unfortunate aspects,  is also open to debate. I'm pretty sure the existence of this story would never stop me from using an usufruct, just like knowing that cars are involved in terrible accidents would never stop me from buying a new one.

[timendres]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Whether or not this is a rare exception or an every day event is of course down to conjecture. But I have to say I've never heard of one similar in real life, neither does anyone I know. And whether the story quoted is a wind up or has unique unfortunate aspects,  is also open to debate. I'm pretty sure the existence of this story would never stop me from using an usufruct, just like knowing that cars are involved in terrible accidents would never stop me from buying a new one.

 

You are quite right. And the Usufruct, being the best option in some cases, should be used appropriately.

Just keep in mind that there is no 100% safe option for the many risks we face in life and plan accordingly.

[YaDongImproved]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:02 AM, KhunLA said:

@Aforek 

 

No lawyers needed unless you don't trust the people involved.  Usufructs & wills are quite easy to register without lawyers.

 

I/we've done numerous times.

i would disagree. 
First, the usufruct contract made by the land department is very simple and does not fully protect someone.

a good lawyer will make an addendum to usufruct with additional rights like the owner can not borrow, mortgage, transfer or create any encumbrances on the land. You also give possession rights of the chanotte to the usufructuary.

You can also provide rights to build or ownership or new buildings on the land and more.

Second, you can add a MOU explaining where the money comes from for the purchase of the property. That will be very useful in case of divorce or separation.

 

i write some of the first articles about usufruct and registered more than 100. I am Sebastien from ThaiLawOnline.

Today, Sap Ing Sith are a better protection than a lease especially if the land does not have buildings. But of course, you do not read that on forums because people think they are all better than lawyers and do not understand that paying 10,000 or 30,000 baht for contracts made by professionals are one of the best investments you can do on a property that might worth 2,3,5 millions or more.

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, YaDongImproved said:

i would disagree. 
First, the usufruct contract made by the land department is very simple and does not fully protect someone.

a good lawyer will make an addendum to usufruct with additional rights like the owner can not borrow, mortgage, transfer or create any encumbrances on the land. You also give possession rights of the chanotte to the usufructuary.

You can also provide rights to build or ownership or new buildings on the land and more.

Second, you can add a MOU explaining where the money comes from for the purchase of the property. That will be very useful in case of divorce or separation.

 

i write some of the first articles about usufruct and registered more than 100. I am Sebastien from ThaiLawOnline.

Today, Sap Ing Sith are a better protection than a lease especially if the land does not have buildings. But of course, you do not read that on forums because people think they are all better than lawyers and do not understand that paying 10,000 or 30,000 baht for contracts made by professionals are one of the best investments you can do on a property that might worth 2,3,5 millions or more.

If I had to add all that to a usufruct, than I'd be dealing with someone I don't really trust, and I'd rent or by a condo.

 

No piece of paper is going to protect you, if someone doesn't want you living there.

 

Don't invest more than you can lose.

[Aforek]

When the "owner " of the chanot dies, what happens ? there is somebody else's name or it always remains in the name of the same person; and does it change something for the usufruct ?