The dangers of AA fundamentalism

[Andy F]

Dear friends,

 

I have written a short book about the dangers of hardcore religious fundamentalism in AA. Although in the minority, there are also cult-like splinter groups that can also be damaging to the sometimes vulnerable newcomer.

 

The book is available as a FREE PDF copy here:

 

https://aaforagnostics.com/

 

 

Disclaimer

 

The content of this blog is an AA member's personal experience. It does not necessarily represent the ideas, beliefs, or practices of Alcoholics Anonymous

[ding]

In the US - I saw many religious people try to stick the camel's nose under the tent and make AA a religious organization, instead of a spiritual fellowship. That was in the 90's and again in the early 2000's. I see it happening again in the past couple of years. I suspect it's due to the social and political passions of the times in America. It wasn't long before I figured we'd be smelling camel butt if we didn't remind those folks that this is a spiritual fellowship.

 

1) It would cause severe disunity. There would be conflict between religions, obviously. Even if everyone agreed to allow Christian doctrine only, we just have to look at Northern Ireland to see what might happen.

 

2) Religion has never kept drunks sober. Despite all the kind hearted effort and selfless sacrifice on the part of the good people of religion... it just didn't work. To quote a paragraph from the Big Book pg 88, "It works- it really does". And if it works, don't fix it.

 

It's a miracle a couple of white Christian drunks, only sober a few years, allowed for this openness of belief. But that's just my opinion.

 

 

[Andy F]

Thank you for your comments 💟 I agree wholeheartedly. Religious fundamentalism in AA is seriously undermining the unity of the fellowship 🙏

[likerdup1]

23 hours ago, ding said:

In the US - I saw many religious people try to stick the camel's nose under the tent and make AA a religious organization, instead of a spiritual fellowship. That was in the 90's and again in the early 2000's. I see it happening again in the past couple of years. I suspect it's due to the social and political passions of the times in America. It wasn't long before I figured we'd be smelling camel butt if we didn't remind those folks that this is a spiritual fellowship.

 

1) It would cause severe disunity. There would be conflict between religions, obviously. Even if everyone agreed to allow Christian doctrine only, we just have to look at Northern Ireland to see what might happen.

 

2) Religion has never kept drunks sober. Despite all the kind hearted effort and selfless sacrifice on the part of the good people of religion... it just didn't work. To quote a paragraph from the Big Book pg 88, "It works- it really does". And if it works, don't fix it.

 

It's a miracle a couple of white Christian drunks, only sober a few years, allowed for this openness of belief. But that's just my opinion.

 

 

In all of my 30 years attending AA I have seen very little religious fundamentalism within the fellowship. Off the top of my head, maybe 3 shares where people went off on "Jesus" tangents. Thankfully most in the fellowship understand the basic tradition of not affiliating with outside organizations or enterprises. What is a problem in modern day AA is the introduction of quite a lot of bad information that is simply not AA. This waters down the true program and many real alcoholics suffer due to not hearing the simple program outlined in AA literature. 

 

Many long time AA members, who in some cases are not even real alcoholics, have not even take the time to study and be taught the AA literature and fail to pass along the simple practical program of action. Another disappointing occurrence is the attendance of others who seek to impose their fringe "secular / atheist program" that being a thorough misunderstanding of the true AA 12 step program. yes these long timer atheists/agnostics are welcome in the fellowship but they are splinter group that chooses to not let loose their prejudices, not have an open mind toward a Higher Power and twist the true program of AA to suit them. This further undermines the simple message of recovery through contact with  Higher Power, Power Greater and the like. These dangerous so called "free thinkers" have more than likely, by muddying the message, directly blocked real alcoholics from hearing the actual message of recovery as designed and quite likely allowed loss of life where life could have been saved.

[likerdup1]

If the OP is looking to try to damage AA as a whole I think he's made a good start by writing an essay about a practically non-existent issue. In all my 30 years of attending AA I've never heard or experienced anything of the sort mentioned.

[Yellowtail]

I think the anti-God crowd is a bigger threat as well. 

[StandardIssue]

I just started doing the AA program with a Big Book sponsor. We read the chapter "We Agnostics" today. I am not a religious person and didn't really like the idea of God, but that chapter says that I only need a willingness to believe there might be a Power Greater that can help me. It doesn't say I must believe. It says moving on and doing the steps will bring about a God awareness. That's good enough for me. I am open to have the experience by doing the rest of the steps.

 

It's pretty obvious to me that these "Agnostic AA' folks completely missed the point in Chapter 4 of the book. Even myself, new to AA can understand that in order to do step 2 one just only needs a willingness to believe. Thankfully AA doesn't say you have to believe to do the steps. Seems to me these Agnostic AA folks missed the point completely.

[Yellowtail]

6 hours ago, StandardIssue said:

I just started doing the AA program with a Big Book sponsor. We read the chapter "We Agnostics" today. I am not a religious person and didn't really like the idea of God, but that chapter says that I only need a willingness to believe there might be a Power Greater that can help me. It doesn't say I must believe. It says moving on and doing the steps will bring about a God awareness. That's good enough for me. I am open to have the experience by doing the rest of the steps.

 

It's pretty obvious to me that these "Agnostic AA' folks completely missed the point in Chapter 4 of the book. Even myself, new to AA can understand that in order to do step 2 one just only needs a willingness to believe. Thankfully AA doesn't say you have to believe to do the steps. Seems to me these Agnostic AA folks missed the point completely.

So, you decided you were an alcoholic, congratulations! 

 

Are you going to the RoundUp in Pattaya next month? 

[ding]

On 1/10/2024 at 7:50 AM, Yellowtail said:

I think the anti-God crowd is a bigger threat as well. 

I understand that. Are you including the "Higher Power" people in that?

For me, only me, I'm never threatened by what someone believes or doesn't believe. It's the same issue as pushing a specific religion into AA though when it goes that far. So it doesn't bother me at all... it's outside my hula hoop. 

 

Personal recover depends on AA unity - and nothing will ruin unity faster than fighting between religions, or the non-religious. Spiritual in the rooms and the word God is used for that concept by me and countless others. Faith and Religion is for outside the rooms, for those who want it. Lets maintain that and hold onto the unity we inherited.

[StandardIssue]

On 2/23/2024 at 8:54 AM, ding said:

I understand that. Are you including the "Higher Power" people in that?

For me, only me, I'm never threatened by what someone believes or doesn't believe. It's the same issue as pushing a specific religion into AA though when it goes that far. So it doesn't bother me at all... it's outside my hula hoop. 

 

Personal recover depends on AA unity - and nothing will ruin unity faster than fighting between religions, or the non-religious. Spiritual in the rooms and the word God is used for that concept by me and countless others. Faith and Religion is for outside the rooms, for those who want it. Lets maintain that and hold onto the unity we inherited.

 

I'm fairly new in the fellowship of AA but have found through having a sponsor who uses the Big Book and 12 and 12 to sponsor me that what you talk about personal recovery is the window shade summary of Tradition One.

 

It is important to understand that to get recovery from alcoholism it is not required to go to meetings. No where in the Big Book or 12 and 12 does it say that going to meetings is required to get recovery from alcoholism. What is required is to follow the 12 steps. When an alcoholic who wants recovery gets to step 12 they are to go out in their community, whether in be an AA meeting or visiting a hospital, church or other to find an alcoholic looking for help and if that alcoholic is willing, take them through the steps. That in and of itself would start a fellowship in a location where no meetings had previously existed.

 

It almost goes without saying that continual fighting about anything within meetings of the fellowship is infrequent and even rarer are on going disputes regarding religion etc. My sponsor has over 30 years and told me he has very rarely ever heard anybody share religious fundamentalism that the OP describes.

 

The OP seems to have an ulterior motive claiming to be an atheist that has an atheist way to do the 12 steps. I have gone over the literature. It is pretty clear in the Big Book chapter in "There is a Solution and "We Agnostics" and all throughout the book that a even willingness to believe in a Higher Power is required to do step 2 and be able to move on and do the rest of the steps. I myself was very skeptical about all this God stuff. But I was desperate and willing to believe what people said in certain meetings of AA regarding their personal spiritual experiences. I've gone through the steps and had my own personal spiritual connection with a God of my own understanding that has the Power I need to give me recovery from alcoholism. It is truly a miracle. It is a miracle that the fellowship alone could never give me. And more importantly a miracle no human power could have given me. The fellowship is full of humans. They cannot give me recovery. But, in the right kind of meetings, they will tell me it is important to have an open mind, do the steps and get a spiritual awakening which is the solution to alcoholism given to the world by AA.

[ding]

On 2/26/2024 at 8:53 PM, StandardIssue said:

 

 

The OP seems to have an ulterior motive claiming to be an atheist that has an atheist way to do the 12 steps. I have gone over the literature. It is pretty clear in the Big Book chapter in "There is a Solution and "We Agnostics" and all throughout the book that a even willingness to believe in a Higher Power is required to do step 2 and be able to move on and do the rest of the steps. 

I just left a meeting and 3 guys with over 40 years sober are atheists. I'm not, but hats off to them. It's rare but I guess that's why even the 12 steps are 'suggested' as a program of recovery in How It Works pg 59.

 

Take care!

[StandardIssue]

On 4/6/2024 at 11:45 PM, ding said:

I just left a meeting and 3 guys with over 40 years sober are atheists. I'm not, but hats off to them. It's rare but I guess that's why even the 12 steps are 'suggested' as a program of recovery in How It Works pg 59.

 

Take care!

 

That is an extremely rare occurrence if I ever heard one. I hope you are being honest and not trolling ... but if it actually happened i find that very sad indeed.

 

Guys like that don't carry the true message of AA.  -- Having had a spiritual awakening as THE result of the steps.

 

I would suggest you study the literature. Especially the chapter "We Agnostics". I am a student of the literature for awhile now. Anyone who goes to meetings with decades of sobriety and proudly announces themselves as an atheist just does meetings and in my experience has not studied the basic texts. They obviously have not done the program as designed and also may not be real alcoholics. If they actually did program as designed they would have come to know a Power Greater than themselves.

 

 

Guys like that (with decades of sobriety) are egoists bucking the program and spitting in the face of the majority of us who were once atheists or had some belief to begin with and came to know a God of our own understanding by doing the 12 steps. Think about it.. most people who know the program and are trying to put it in their lives are trying to practice spirituality and continue to grow in their relationship with a God. How spiritual is it to come in to AA and say you know better?  What is that? 

 

Now, of course about half of new comers in AA are agnostic or atheists but if they do the program with a good sponsor whey will be faced with the fact that the programs asks, in Step 2, for even a willingness to believe their might be a God or Higher Power that can help. 

 

Do yourself a favor. Go online and find either the Joe and Charlie Big Book study seminar or the Bob D and Scott L big book study seminars and study the program of AA. 

 

What I say to anyone who claims decades of sobriety in AA as an atheist is this. Why go to meetings of AA if your not going to do the program of AA. Meetings are meetings the 12 steps are the program. Nobody has to do the steps but if you are not going to do the steps as designed why hang out in meetings for decades? Just to hear yourself talk? Just for the social value? Just so you can pontificate about some meaningless crap you think is the program of AA or your personal "interpretation" of the program without actually having informed yourself by carefully studying it? That is NOT HELPING! 

 

The rest of us are trying to save our lives by finding a Power Greater than ourselves to solve our problem. (that's a quote from the big book). The main purpose of the book is to find a power greater to solve your problem. The entire program is based on finding a Power Greater than oneself to solve the obsession for alcohol.

[Andy F]

On 4/18/2024 at 8:25 PM, StandardIssue said:

 

That is an extremely rare occurrence if I ever heard one. I hope you are being honest and not trolling ... but if it actually happened i find that very sad indeed.

 

Guys like that don't carry the true message of AA.  -- Having had a spiritual awakening as THE result of the steps.

 

I would suggest you study the literature. Especially the chapter "We Agnostics". I am a student of the literature for awhile now. Anyone who goes to meetings with decades of sobriety and proudly announces themselves as an atheist just does meetings and in my experience has not studied the basic texts. They obviously have not done the program as designed and also may not be real alcoholics. If they actually did program as designed they would have come to know a Power Greater than themselves.

 

 

Guys like that (with decades of sobriety) are egoists bucking the program and spitting in the face of the majority of us who were once atheists or had some belief to begin with and came to know a God of our own understanding by doing the 12 steps. Think about it.. most people who know the program and are trying to put it in their lives are trying to practice spirituality and continue to grow in their relationship with a God. How spiritual is it to come in to AA and say you know better?  What is that? 

 

Now, of course about half of new comers in AA are agnostic or atheists but if they do the program with a good sponsor whey will be faced with the fact that the programs asks, in Step 2, for even a willingness to believe their might be a God or Higher Power that can help. 

 

Do yourself a favor. Go online and find either the Joe and Charlie Big Book study seminar or the Bob D and Scott L big book study seminars and study the program of AA. 

 

What I say to anyone who claims decades of sobriety in AA as an atheist is this. Why go to meetings of AA if your not going to do the program of AA. Meetings are meetings the 12 steps are the program. Nobody has to do the steps but if you are not going to do the steps as designed why hang out in meetings for decades? Just to hear yourself talk? Just for the social value? Just so you can pontificate about some meaningless crap you think is the program of AA or your personal "interpretation" of the program without actually having informed yourself by carefully studying it? That is NOT HELPING! 

 

The rest of us are trying to save our lives by finding a Power Greater than ourselves to solve our problem. (that's a quote from the big book). The main purpose of the book is to find a power greater to solve your problem. The entire program is based on finding a Power Greater than oneself to solve the obsession for alcohol.

It's not rare at all mate. Atheists like Jim Burwell have been around from AA's very beginning. Since then,Secular AA has become a force to be reckoned with

 

https://www.aasecular.org/

 

 

 

 

[StandardIssue]

On 4/22/2024 at 9:19 AM, Andy F said:

It's not rare at all mate. Atheists like Jim Burwell have been around from AA's very beginning. Since then,Secular AA has become a force to be reckoned with

 

https://www.aasecular.org/

 

 

 

 

Respectfully, anyone with some intelligence knows it's easy to make hyperbolic comments and statements as though they are fact without any actual statistics.

 

The very fact that there exists a faction of AA (AA secular) that separates themselves from the mainstream fellowship speaks volumes. It shows that they choose to do a program other than the actual AA program. In my opinion this shows that instead of accepting the true program of recovery as specifically communicated in the literature they choose to change it to suit themselves. What's worse it smacks of a type arrogance that goes against the idea of surrendering ones will over to a Power Greater. They are holding onto the kind of prejudice that the chapter "We Agnostics" specifically encourages agnostics or atheists to let go of. They choose to hang on to their old ideas (will) and ignore key ideas of the true AA program.

[Andy F]

You are in violation of the third tradition with that kind of rhetoric It has nothing whatever to do with the all-inclusive ethos of Alcoholics Anonymous. Guys like you should be ashamed. You are destroying the unity of AA which has always been the lifeblood of the fellowship. You chose to interpret the AA literature in a way that suits your fear-driven fundamentalist agendas. There is room in AA for every alcoholic irrespective of their belief of lack of belief. 

 

What happened to "Live ad Let live"?

 

Utterly pathetic mate! You need to take inventory again to question the authenticity of your spiritual values! 

[Yellowtail]

5 hours ago, Andy F said:

You are in violation of the third tradition with that kind of rhetoric It has nothing whatever to do with the all-inclusive ethos of Alcoholics Anonymous. Guys like you should be ashamed. You are destroying the unity of AA which has always been the lifeblood of the fellowship. You chose to interpret the AA literature in a way that suits your fear-driven fundamentalist agendas. There is room in AA for every alcoholic irrespective of their belief of lack of belief. 

 

What happened to "Live ad Let live"?

 

Utterly pathetic mate! You need to take inventory again to question the authenticity of your spiritual values! 

The F-God group has splintered off and started their own program, yet is traditionalists that are in violation, got it. 

[StandardIssue]

19 hours ago, Andy F said:

You are in violation of the third tradition with that kind of rhetoric It has nothing whatever to do with the all-inclusive ethos of Alcoholics Anonymous. Guys like you should be ashamed. You are destroying the unity of AA which has always been the lifeblood of the fellowship. You chose to interpret the AA literature in a way that suits your fear-driven fundamentalist agendas. There is room in AA for every alcoholic irrespective of their belief of lack of belief. 

 

What happened to "Live ad Let live"?

 

Utterly pathetic mate! You need to take inventory again to question the authenticity of your spiritual values! 

Where did I say atheists and agnostics are not welcome in the AA fellowship? Of course they are! The traditions apply to the fellowship. I sure hope you understand that. The traditions have nothing to do with getting recovery from alcoholism. Going to AA meetings does not give recovery from alcoholism. Having a spiritual awakening by doing the steps does.

 

I suggest you re-read my post again. Anyone no matter what their beliefs are welcome in the AA fellowship, however if someone wants to do the 12 step program correctly to get recovery from alcoholism they will have to follow the instructions as laid out in the literature.

 

The fact you are labeling me a "fundamentalist" is mud slinging mud and offensive language. Judging my spiritual condition is taking my inventory, I hope you understand that this is not a good idea as recommended by most AA's.

 

Your rhetoric, again, appears to come from prejudice and fixed ideas you have concerning the AA program. I recommend you consider are not be correct and actually study the AA literature.

[StandardIssue]

22 hours ago, Andy F said:

You are in violation of the third tradition with that kind of rhetoric It has nothing whatever to do with the all-inclusive ethos of Alcoholics Anonymous. Guys like you should be ashamed. You are destroying the unity of AA which has always been the lifeblood of the fellowship. You chose to interpret the AA literature in a way that suits your fear-driven fundamentalist agendas. There is room in AA for every alcoholic irrespective of their belief of lack of belief. 

 

What happened to "Live ad Let live"?

 

Utterly pathetic mate! You need to take inventory again to question the authenticity of your spiritual values! 

 

Re-reading your post just convinces me that I've "struck a chord" and all you have is a nonsensical retort that "my rhetoric has violated the 3rd tradition". Again, I'm talking about the program. Not the fellowship.

The traditions have nothing to do with the program. They were developed as guidelines for the fellowship. (read the forward to the 2nd edition in the AA book which specifically talks about this)

 

Here, I will make a comment about the fellowship and this so called "Secular AA".

 

The fact that there exists a faction of the fellowship who want to call themselves "Secular AA" is disunity in and of itself. AA is AA. There is no other AA. By declaring themselves "Secular" they separate themselves from the mainstream fellowship. Is that unity?

 

To me this is not unity. These are people separating themselves from the mainstream fellowship.  I can't see how anyone could see it any other way. It is an act of disunity for any group to declare that they are another "type" of AA fellowship or program. 

[Andy F]

Responsibility Is Our Theme

 

"Newcomers are approaching AA at the rate of tens of thousands yearly. They represent almost every belief and attitude imaginable. We have atheists and agnostics. We have people of nearly every race, culture and religion. In AA we are supposed to be bound together in the kinship of a common suffering. Consequently, the full individual liberty to practice any creed or principle or therapy whatever should be a first consideration for us all. Let us not, therefore, pressure anyone with our individual or even our collective views. Let us instead accord each other the respect and love that is due to every human being as he tries to make his way toward the light. Let us always try to be inclusive rather than exclusive; let us remember that each alcoholic among us is a member of AA, so long as he or she so declares".

 

Bill W.

 

Copyright © AA Grapevine, Inc. (July 1965)

 

" This was the great contribution of our atheists and agnostics. They had widened our gateway so that all who suffer might pass through, regardless of belief or lack of belief."

Bill W.

 

I rest my case 

 

Have a great Weekend

 

 

[Yellowtail]

58 minutes ago, Andy F said:

Responsibility Is Our Theme

 

"Newcomers are approaching AA at the rate of tens of thousands yearly. They represent almost every belief and attitude imaginable. We have atheists and agnostics. We have people of nearly every race, culture and religion. In AA we are supposed to be bound together in the kinship of a common suffering. Consequently, the full individual liberty to practice any creed or principle or therapy whatever should be a first consideration for us all. Let us not, therefore, pressure anyone with our individual or even our collective views. Let us instead accord each other the respect and love that is due to every human being as he tries to make his way toward the light. Let us always try to be inclusive rather than exclusive; let us remember that each alcoholic among us is a member of AA, so long as he or she so declares".

 

Bill W.

 

Copyright © AA Grapevine, Inc. (July 1965)

 

" This was the great contribution of our atheists and agnostics. They had widened our gateway so that all who suffer might pass through, regardless of belief or lack of belief."

Bill W.

 

I rest my case 

 

Have a great Weekend

 

 

What was the case that you wanted to make? 

 

No one has in any way suggested that atheists, agnostics were not welcome in AA. 

 

As always: "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking."

 

 

 

[StandardIssue]

Newcomers are approaching AA at the rate of tens of thousands yearly. They represent almost every belief and attitude imaginable. We have atheists and agnostics. 

 

He's writing about NEWCOMERS IN THE FELLOWSHIP here. Not people with decades of sobriety.  Again, of course, anyone can attend an AA meeting as the requirement for attendance is extremely open. "A desire to stop drinking".

 

However, entrance in the the "fellowship of the spirit" mentioned on page 164 has a much higher cost. That cost is the learning and practice of the AA 12 step program. That program has a 2nd step thoroughly outlined in "We Agnostics". All throughout that chapter it urges people who are agnostic or atheist to have an open mind to experience the Power of a Higher Power through continuing on and doing the rest of the steps. To not even be willing to believe one cannot do step 2. 

 

Of course all newcomers should be accepted and given as wide a berth as possible in the fellowship to have any views, attitudes they want. But if newcomers wish recovery the AA way then it is always suggested they do what every AA who has successfully recovered from alcoholism the AA way does. LEARN AND DO THE STEPS as outlined in the literature. Nobody is ever pressured to do the steps. I've rarely seen anyone "pressure" anybody in AA to do anything they do not want to do. Exactly how would anyone do that anyway?

It's read at every meeting "Here are the steps we took which are suggested as a program of recovery."  

 

Again, if an alcoholic wants recovery the AA way then they ought to practice the AA program, which again, you seem to not understand, is completely separate from the fellowship of AA. The program is the 12 steps. The fellowship are people who attend meetings.

 

You've not made a "case". There is no case to be made. There is only the work of helping suffering alcoholics recover from alcoholism and the most effective way to do that as specifically outlined  in the AA book and Twelve and Twelve.

 

If you want to start trading Bill W quotes here's another from the grapevine.

 

Bill Wilson stated that “Sobriety, freedom from alcohol from the teaching and practice of the 12 steps is the SOLE purpose of an AA group. Groups have repeatedly tried other activities and they have ALWAYS failed. If we don’t stick to these principles will shall almost surely collapse. And if we collapse, we cannot help anyone”. (1958 Grapevine article)

 

 

 

[StandardIssue]

1 hour ago, Andy F said:

Responsibility Is Our Theme

 

"Newcomers are approaching AA at the rate of tens of thousands yearly. They represent almost every belief and attitude imaginable. We have atheists and agnostics. We have people of nearly every race, culture and religion. In AA we are supposed to be bound together in the kinship of a common suffering. 

 

 

 

Just another observation about our conversation, you've not once answered any of my questions. Hmmm.. You choose to avoid the hard questions? Do yourself a favor. Go back and really study the literature. It's the best thing I ever did in the last several months. It has enabled me to be a good sponsor and help real alcoholics become recovered from alcoholism.

 

The entire point I've been trying to make is that helping newcomers should be the main reason for recovered alcoholics to attend meetings. There is no other reason I go these days. Doing the 12th step is the highest calling for any AA member. Athiests and agnostics with decades of sobriety are welcome in meetings. But what is it that they offer when the entire purpose of the AA 12 step program is to find a Higher Power or Power Greater to relieve one from alcoholism?

 

a) we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives

b) Probably NO HUMAN power could have relieved our alcoholism

c) God could and would if he were sought.

 

It's read at every meeting mate.

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, StandardIssue said:

 

Just another observation about our conversation, you've not once answered any of my questions. Hmmm.. You choose to avoid the hard questions? Do yourself a favor. Go back and really study the literature. It's the best thing I ever did in the last several months. It has enabled me to be a good sponsor and help real alcoholics become recovered from alcoholism.

 

The entire point I've been trying to make is that helping newcomers should be the main reason for recovered alcoholics to attend meetings. There is no other reason I go these days. Doing the 12th step is the highest calling for any AA member. Athiests and agnostics with decades of sobriety are welcome in meetings. But what is it that they offer when the entire purpose of the AA 12 step program is to find a Higher Power or Power Greater to relieve one from alcoholism?

 

a) we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives

b) Probably NO HUMAN power could have relieved our alcoholism

c) God could and would if he were sought.

 

It's read at every meeting mate.

 

Likely not in the AA Secular meetings...

[Andy F]

The fundamentalists and the Big Book Thumpers in AA are free to interpret the Big Book in any way that works for them. That is absolutely fine, so long as they don't try to shove their particular brand of AA down the throats of those who are not interested. 

 

Following a recent dialogue with the General Service Office (GSO) of AA in New York, I was informed that the AA program is completely open to personal interpretation. I assume that this includes the AA Big Book. That, too, is open to personal interpretation. The last time I looked, AA was still a pure democracy. You take what you need and leave the rest.

 

The AA conference is mindful that for AA to survive, it had to reassess its position on the use of the word "God" as the only higher power that works. See the link to the "God" word pamphlet.

 

https://www.aa.org/god-word-agnostic-and-atheist-members-aa

 

You tell me that I have not answered your questions/ Why on Earth would I want to do that when I don't want what you have? 

 

I am 27 years sober with contented sobriety. I sponsor 5 guys who also identify as atheists, agnostics, and freethinkers. We study the literature. I always tell them they will recover if they make AA their higher power.

 

I remind them that pertinent idea C says, "God could and would if he were SOUGHT". It doesn't say found! As long as the alcoholic remains a spiritual seeker and remains true to himself, he will stay sober and recreate his life.

 

pertinent idea B says, "No human power could relieve our alcoholism." Can you call the collective power of alcoholics in AA a human power? No, collectively. This Group Of Drunks. is definitely a power greater than the individual alcoholic.

 

Relax, guys; we atheists, agnostics, and freethinkers have got it all in hand. Many have not had a drink in years and are happy, joyous and free.

 

In response to that, I suppose you are now going to tell me that "I can't be a REAL alcoholic if I don't believe in God". In all my years in AA, I have never heard such a deluded and psychotic statement from the fundamentalist camp in AA.

 

You guys keep doing what you do if it keeps you sober, and we will keep doing what we do to keep us sober.

 

"LIVE AND LET LIVE" - Popular AA slogan displayed at almost every AA meeting worldwide.

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, Andy F said:

The fundamentalists and the Big Book Thumpers in AA are free to interpret the Big Book in any way that works for them. That is absolutely fine, so long as they don't try to shove their particular brand of AA down the throats of those who are not interested. 

 

Following a recent dialogue with the General Service Office (GSO) of AA in New York, I was informed that the AA program is completely open to personal interpretation. I assume that this includes the AA Big Book. That, too, is open to personal interpretation. The last time I looked, AA was still a pure democracy. You take what you need and leave the rest.

So I assume depending on one's interpretation it's okay to smoke grass, yes? 

4 minutes ago, Andy F said:

The AA conference is mindful that for AA to survive, it had to reassess its position on the use of the word "God" as the only higher power that works. See the link to the "God" word pamphlet.

 

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/assets/p-86_theGodWord.pdf

 

You tell me that I have not answered your questions/ Why on Earth would I want to do that when I don't want what you have? 

 

I am 27 years sober with contented sobriety. I sponsor 5 guys who also identify as atheists, agnostics, and freethinkers. We study the literature. I always tell them that if they make AA itself their higher power, they will recover.

 

I remind them that pertinent idea C says, "God, could and would if he were SOUGHT". It doesn't say found! As long as the alcoholic remains a spiritual seeker and remains true to himself, he will stay sober and recreate his life.

Are atheists seeking God? 

4 minutes ago, Andy F said:

 

Relax guys, we atheists, agnostics and freethinkers have got it all in hand. many of us have not had a drink in years and are happy, joyous and free.

 

In response to that, I suppose you are now going to tell me that "I cant be a REAL alcoholic if I don't believe in God". In all my years in AA, I have never heard such a deluded and psychotic statement from the fundamentalist camp in AA

 

You guys keep doing what you  do if it keeps you sober, and we will keep doing what we do to keep us sober.

 

 

You want to bang on members that have a God in their life, brag about how you don't need one and promote atheism to newcomers, good for you.

 

Again, what was the case that you wanted to make? No one has in any way suggested that atheists, agnostics were not welcome in AA, and as always: "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking."

 

Nothing new about the f-God crowd in AA. 

[StandardIssue]

Again with the labeling. I guess that helps you sleep at night and justify all the energy you put into your book. That's pretty low. Labeling people who actually carefully study the literature as "thumpers" or "fundamentalists". IMHO an unhelpful attitude to have.  

 

There is very little in the AA Big Book and 12 and 12 to interpret. The forward to the first edition states " 

 

We, of Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than one hundred men and women who have re-covered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and
body. To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book.

 

Hmmm, so how does that "group of drunks" higher power work? The best I can think is that you tell newcomers to "keep coming back"  Tell newcomers to stay in meetings 16 hours each day to get recovery from alcoholism so you they can draw on that "collective" power of a group of drunks? 

 

By the way it doesn't say probably no individual human power could relieve our alcoholism. But 10 in a room 16 hours a day with room service could.

 

[gerryBScot]

On 1/2/2024 at 12:28 PM, ding said:

 

 

1) It would cause severe disunity. There would be conflict between religions, obviously. Even if everyone agreed to allow Christian doctrine only, we just have to look at Northern Ireland to see what might happen.

 

On the subject of the  recent history of Northern Ireland, it is to AA's eternal credit that at the height of The Troubles AA provided one of the few interfaces between the conflicted communities. I believe this was instrumental in lowering the sectarian kill and easing tensions. I am an AA and have little truck with its critics - it is clearly not for all, and there are other ways to get sober, but AA is authentic and works.

[Hummin]

On 1/2/2024 at 4:02 AM, Andy F said:

Dear friends,

 

I have written a short book about the dangers of hardcore religious fundamentalism in AA. Although in the minority, there are also cult-like splinter groups that can also be damaging to the sometimes vulnerable newcomer.

 

The book is available as a FREE PDF copy here:

 

https://aaforagnostics.com/

 

 

Disclaimer

 

The content of this blog is an AA member's personal experience. It does not necessarily represent the ideas, beliefs, or practices of Alcoholics Anonymous

I think every addicts need an hook to manage to brake a negative pattern and endless negative life threatening cycle, and thats why religion,  yoga schools, scientology, extreme fitness, running maraton, bodybuilding, eating habits plays a role for some. 

 

I have a few friends who lacking energy, motivation and see no future continously drinking themself to death. Slow suicide. What is worst? One extreme in change for another?

[Yellowtail]

4 hours ago, Hummin said:

I think every addicts need an hook to manage to brake a negative pattern and endless negative life threatening cycle, and thats why religion,  yoga schools, scientology, extreme fitness, running maraton, bodybuilding, eating habits plays a role for some. 

 

I have a few friends who lacking energy, motivation and see no future continously drinking themself to death. Slow suicide. What is worst? One extreme in change for another?

Well, I never drank a cup of coffee at an AA meeting or went to a church service and got arrested on the way home. 

 

 

 

[Angus55]

On 1/5/2024 at 9:21 AM, likerdup1 said:

If the OP is looking to try to damage AA as a whole I think he's made a good start by writing an essay about a practically non-existent issue. In all my 30 years of attending AA I've never heard or experienced anything of the sort mentioned.

It is non existent in groups overseas but in the USA it can be  a problem. More just because there are fundamentalist Christians at the meetings and they would try and convert anyone irrespective of the location / situation anyway.