Thai government resists Israeli embassy’s call for hostage release in Gaza

[Jingthing]

I've noticed the River to the Sea brigade finds great pleasure in finding Jews to cite to support their extremist Israel demonization views. Jew washing as it were.

 

What percentage of global Jews do you imagine agree with Finkelstein? He is not representative at all.

 

Edited January 19 by Jingthing

[Brickleberry]

54 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Most people call it a war. You want to argue otherwise, that's up to you.

Gaza has not been under Israeli occupation since 2005.

Wars are not necessarily fought between two nations, plenty of wars nowadays between state and non-state players.

Israel controls Gaza's birth records? Where did you come up with this nonsense?

 

Israel did leave the Gaza Strip. All them restrictions - they are a product of Hamas agenda and policy, which you insist on ignoring.

In case you missed it, the Gaza Strip borders Egypt as well - and Egypt maintains it's own set of restrictions as to what and who goes in and out.

 

Gideon Levy and Norman Finkelstein are fringe, extreme left, and anti-Zionist. If you get your 'views' from them, it's no wonder they are so warped.

Neither is a 'world famous expert' the way you present it.

 

Not very good prison guards considering the 'inmates' manages to stockpile thousands of rockets, dig hundreds of miles of tunnels, and carry out a major surprise attack, killing over a 1000 people and kidnapping more than 200.

 

Any other nonsense yo need clarifying?

 

Your views on Gaza not being occupied are profoundly wrong. Every single humanitarian organization in the world, including the UN and the ICC has labeled it as such. It is legally classed as occupied territory. Your opinion on the matter is not factual, laws are.

 

Occupation is defined in Article 42 of the Fourth Hague Convention:

“Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.” As Israel controls all movement in and out of Gaza, electricity, internet, water, air waves, passports, travel documents, birth registry etc. It most definitely controls the territory. Hamas never had any real power, this is the big lie that has been fed to you!

 

How do you not know that Israel controls birth records? Israel knows exactly who everyone in the Gaza strip is, and what they had for lunch! It is called the population registry. You can easily google that for yourself, or check this out: https://gisha.org/en/the-population-registry/ 

 

You also mentioned earlier that Egypt controls one of the borders, so how could it possibly be a prison? However, no-one can enter another country without a passport or Israeli approved ID card, and who controls passports and ID card? Israel. Palestinian passports can only be issued in the West Bank under the authority of the PA - and guess what, Palestinians need Israeli approval to go to the west bank.

 

Granted, Mr Finklestien is left wing, but he's hardly considered extreme. Gideon Levy is as mainstream as you can get. Haaretz is a prominent Israeli paper, and it is internationally renowned, it prints an English version if you would care to read it.

 

Gideon Levy served in the IDF, and was a Zionist as a youngster. As he grew up and saw the suffering around him, his views changed. He is not considered extreme or far left.

Edited January 19 by Brickleberry

[Jingthing]

Israel hasn't occupied Gaza since 2005.

However there are voices in Israel supporting reoccupstion in light of October 7.

Hopefully not but the harsh reality is that October 7 has brought Israelis further to the right as to ever trusting Palestinians. 

That means any hope of a two state solution is even further away.

[Brickleberry]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Don't give Finklestien too much credit, he has his critics who are also specialists in their fields. Not sure where you picked up he lived in Gaza or West Bank

 

 

The book was unfavorably reviewed by Joost Hiltermann, who objected to Finkelstein's "abrasiveness, righteous anger, hyperbole, distortions and unwarranted generalizations", and to his generalizations about West Bank Palestinians:

Finkelstein commits the error of assuming that he saw everything there was to see during his trips to the West Bank, and that what he saw represented reality. This leads to absurd observations. He claims, for example, that "many Palestinians are fluent in English" (p. 4), that "many" homes he visited were "equipped with the latest, wide-screen, color models" of television (p. 6), and that "women wore bikinis at the beach" (p. 18).[6]

Hiltermann wrote that while "there is plenty of reason to be anguished about the terrible injustice inflicted upon the Palestinian", Finkelstein's "bludgeoning" style wouldn't reach an audience beyond those already converted.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein

 

Noam Chomsky would disagree. We can all find negative or positive reviews about his work.

https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520318335/gaza

 

"In its comprehensive sweep, deep probing and acute critical analysis, Finkelstein's study stands alone."—Noam Chomsky

[Brickleberry]

12 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Israel hasn't occupied Gaza since 2005.

However there are voices in Israel supporting reoccupstion in light of October 7.

Hopefully not but the harsh reality is that October 7 has brought Israelis further to the right as to ever trusting Palestinians. 

That means any hope of a two state solution is even further away.

 

If I control all of your food, if you can leave or enter your home, open all of your mail, can turn off your electric, water, gas, internet, mobile phone signal, freedom of movement and have guards all around the perimeter of your house, am I not occupying?

 

If all relevant international organizations, and government agencies say this:

Despite the 2005 Israeli disengagement from Gaza, the United Nations, international human rights organizations, and the majority of governments and legal commentators consider the territory to be still occupied by Israel

 

Then who should people believe? You, or experts in the matter?

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Noam Chomsky would disagree. We can all find negative or positive reviews about his work.

https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520318335/gaza

 

"In its comprehensive sweep, deep probing and acute critical analysis, Finkelstein's study stands alone."—Noam Chomsky

With your bias I am sure you can find a lot to disagree however your overwhelming endorsement of him is not from all quarters which is what I pointed out. 

 

Still waiting to see evidence that he lived in Gaza. Another of your claims.

[Brickleberry]

18 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

With your bias I am sure you can find a lot to disagree however your overwhelming endorsement of him is not from all quarters which is what I pointed out. 

 

Still waiting to see evidence that he lived in Gaza. Another of your claims.

 

I disagree with him on some matters, but I agree with him on others.

 

For evidence, why not just look at what you referenced? It clearly states his 'observations' in Gaza in the review you posted. He didn't live there permanently, he stayed for a few months at a time over a number of years.

[Jingthing]

Israel has nor occupied Gaza since 2015. Words have meanings. The west bank is occupied.

[spidermike007]

11 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Yet surprise surprise messaging in support of Hamas is de rigeur at Free Palestine rallies. 

I would have to consider that to be a rather simplistic reply from someone who's usually quite articulate. There's a big difference between showing support for the Palestinian people in opposition to the lack of proportionality of the Israeli response, and showing direct support for Hamas, unless you subscribe to a Bush Jr. philosophy of "there is no gray you're either with us or you're against us". 

[spidermike007]

11 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I call total B.S. 

The majority of American Jews have criticisms of Israeli government policies. 

It is true when such criticism becomes arguing against the right of Israel to exist and defend itself that such people will be accused of being self hating Jews. If the shoe fits.

Incorrect, I've never advocated against the right for Israel to exist, I have no problem with the Israeli people. I've long had problems with Israeli government policy and recently it's more extremist than it's ever been.

 

However, unlike what you state there is a high level of criticism towards anyone who expresses criticism of Israeli government policy, the prosecution of this war against the Gazans, the methods used, and things of that nature. 

[spidermike007]

11 hours ago, Morch said:

 

 

You keep whining about being called this or that. As far as I recall, you weren't called (or at least, not nearly as often as you make the claim) an antisemite and so on. Seems like it's more of an excuse to say whatever.

 

 

Hello, do you know me? Have you been following my life? How do you know what criticisms have been leveled against me over the last 40 years or so? Just because you haven't seen specific criticisms on this thread does not mean you know anything about my life as an American Jew. I have consistently faced criticism for being judgmental towards really bad Israeli policy. There's very much a "you're either with us or you're against us" mentality, when it comes to the Jewish state. 

 

Please at least try to be more articulate and reasoned in your replies. 

[Jingthing]

17 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Incorrect, I've never advocated against the right for Israel to exist, I have no problem with the Israeli people. I've long had problems with Israeli government policy and recently it's more extremist than it's ever been.

 

However, unlike what you state there is a high level of criticism towards anyone who expresses criticism of Israeli government policy, the prosecution of this war against the Gazans, the methods used, and things of that nature. 

Bizarre post.

I was talking generally.

I never said that you specifically are against Israel existing.

Edited January 19 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Deleted

Edited January 19 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

16 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

I would have to consider that to be a rather simplistic reply from someone who's usually quite articulate. There's a big difference between showing support for the Palestinian people in opposition to the lack of proportionality of the Israeli response, and showing direct support for Hamas, unless you subscribe to a Bush Jr. philosophy of "there is no gray you're either with us or you're against us". 

I call BS.

The rallies call for ceasefire.

They never make demands of Hamas.

There are always pro genocide River to the sea chants.

If you don't see that as pro Hamas you're not paying attention. 

[Jingthing]

13 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Hello, do you know me? Have you been following my life? How do you know what criticisms have been leveled against me over the last 40 years or so? Just because you haven't seen specific criticisms on this thread does not mean you know anything about my life as an American Jew. I have consistently faced criticism for being judgmental towards really bad Israeli policy. There's very much a "you're either with us or you're against us" mentality, when it comes to the Jewish state. 

 

Please at least try to be more articulate and reasoned in your replies. 

Perhaps your criticisms of Israel.are more offensively extremist than you realize.

 

[Bkk Brian]

5 hours ago, Brickleberry said:

 

I disagree with him on some matters, but I agree with him on others.

 

For evidence, why not just look at what you referenced? It clearly states his 'observations' in Gaza in the review you posted. He didn't live there permanently, he stayed for a few months at a time over a number of years.

I specifically looked for reference to him having lived in Gaza as you claimed. There is none so yes one of your exaggerations on his experience which you used dishonestly. There is also no reference to him staying for months as you now claim. He had many visits to West Bank  but living in Gaza or even staying for months? Link? It is up to you to provide not me to search.

 

[Brickleberry]

9 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Israel has nor occupied Gaza since 2015. Words have meanings. The west bank is occupied.

You can't keep spouting the same lies (with a different date this time, why did you pick 2015?).

All relevant international agencies, the UN and most governments around the world say it is occupied territory. Your opinion is irrelevant, international law matters.

This is exactly why people get accused of being pro Hamas, or antisemitic - because people just say whatever they want without looking at the facts.

 

The test in international law is: Does the military exercise – the term is “effective control” – over the land or territory?

It’s like if the guards leave the prison, but they take all the keys with them; They’re still controlling how much food goes inside the prison each day and how much electricity goes into the prison each day. The people inside the prison are free to roam wherever they want within the confines of the prison but have no ability to be able to leave – that would be “effective control” over the prison.

This is the same way Israel exercises effective control over who and what leaves Gaza and who and what enters Gaza, as well.

 

[Brickleberry]

8 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I call BS.

The rallies call for ceasefire.

They never make demands of Hamas.

There are always pro genocide River to the sea chants.

If you don't see that as pro Hamas you're not paying attention. 

1) I think enough people have died already. 24,000 confirmed - and that's not including all of the bodies trapped under rubble. Do you not?

2) When you were protesting for LGBT rights, did you also make demands for tax cuts or for increased access to healthcare? No. When you are protesting about an issue, you protest about one issue.

3&4) I agree. It is absolutely ridiculous to use that slogan. It is akin to saying Hiel Hitler, yet claiming that it now means peace and love to all. Insane, and the protesters are only causing harm to the worthy goal of calling for a ceasefire.

 

Edited January 20 by Brickleberry

[Bkk Brian]

21 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

1) I think enough people have died already. 24,000 confirmed - and that's not including all of the bodies trapped under rubble. Do you not?

2) When you were protesting for LGBT rights, did you also make demands for tax cuts or for increased access to healthcare? No. When you are protesting about an issue, you protest about one issue.

3&4) I agree. It is absolutely ridiculous to use that slogan. It is akin to saying Hiel Hitler, yet claiming that it now means peace and love to all. Insane, and the protesters are only causing harm to the worthy goal of calling for a ceasefire.

 

A ceasefire, and what happens to the terrorists?

[Morch]

10 hours ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Your views on Gaza not being occupied are profoundly wrong. Every single humanitarian organization in the world, including the UN and the ICC has labeled it as such. It is legally classed as occupied territory. Your opinion on the matter is not factual, laws are.

 

Occupation is defined in Article 42 of the Fourth Hague Convention:

“Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.” As Israel controls all movement in and out of Gaza, electricity, internet, water, air waves, passports, travel documents, birth registry etc. It most definitely controls the territory. Hamas never had any real power, this is the big lie that has been fed to you!

 

How do you not know that Israel controls birth records? Israel knows exactly who everyone in the Gaza strip is, and what they had for lunch! It is called the population registry. You can easily google that for yourself, or check this out: https://gisha.org/en/the-population-registry/ 

 

You also mentioned earlier that Egypt controls one of the borders, so how could it possibly be a prison? However, no-one can enter another country without a passport or Israeli approved ID card, and who controls passports and ID card? Israel. Palestinian passports can only be issued in the West Bank under the authority of the PA - and guess what, Palestinians need Israeli approval to go to the west bank.

 

Granted, Mr Finklestien is left wing, but he's hardly considered extreme. Gideon Levy is as mainstream as you can get. Haaretz is a prominent Israeli paper, and it is internationally renowned, it prints an English version if you would care to read it.

 

Gideon Levy served in the IDF, and was a Zionist as a youngster. As he grew up and saw the suffering around him, his views changed. He is not considered extreme or far left.

 

Spin it as much as you like there is no Israeli occupation of the Gaza Strip. There is nothing resembling the situation in the West Bank. What interested parties with vested interests say is neither interesting nor relevant. De-facto, Hamas is the ruler of the Gaza Strip. You want to dance around that? Go right ahead.

 

Hamas never had any real power? How do you explain Hamas remaining in power all them years? How do you account for all them thousands of rockets? Or for that matter, them miles upon miles of tunnels dug under the Gaza Strip? No power? So what was 7/10? Try selling this nonsense to someone else.

 

Israel does not 'control' birth records. It cannot do as it likes with them. What it does have the power to do is verify what the PA claims, and not approve certain things when they are not in line with agreements. Because, like it or not - these measures were put in place by power of agreement. That you would paint it as sinister is obvious, since you seem to disregard anything that's a security consideration on Israel's part.

 

By the way, Gisha is yet another pro-Palestinian left-wing organization, so expecting anything balanced on their publications is a choice. You seem to get all your information from such, hence your warped views. Recently heard they are considering a change of brand, following 7/10 (Gisha means 'access' in Hebrew). Here's another tidbit - https://www.ynetnews.com/business/article/by361xqs6

 

Your nonsense about Egypt is astounding. Egypt can choose whom it lets in, provide temporary travel document, permits and what not. You'd have to be pretty clueless not to know Egypt got it's own issues with Hamas, and not wishing a host of Palestinian refugees setting up residence in country.

 

Most of them restrictions you cite, were not in place prior to Hamas taking over the Gaza Strip. Maybe re-think if any of it had, maybe, something to do with Hamas's agenda and actions?

 

Only someone way out there would not describe Finkelstein as anything but extreme. You seem to fit the bill. As for Levy being 'mainstream' - no, he's not. You're just showcasing your ignorance there. His views are certainly not mainstream. Not considered 'extreme or far-left'? ON what planet? He regularly abuses Israel's left for not being left enough. Praising 'Haaretz' won't change the fact that it's been a very left-leaning publications for decades. Again - you seem to rely on a set of sources which pander to your views, them assume they are balanced, well accepted and 'mainstream'. That's not the case.

[Morch]

11 hours ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Noam Chomsky would disagree. We can all find negative or positive reviews about his work.

https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520318335/gaza

 

"In its comprehensive sweep, deep probing and acute critical analysis, Finkelstein's study stands alone."—Noam Chomsky

 

Yet another 'balanced' source.

[Morch]

11 hours ago, Brickleberry said:

 

If I control all of your food, if you can leave or enter your home, open all of your mail, can turn off your electric, water, gas, internet, mobile phone signal, freedom of movement and have guards all around the perimeter of your house, am I not occupying?

 

If all relevant international organizations, and government agencies say this:

Despite the 2005 Israeli disengagement from Gaza, the United Nations, international human rights organizations, and the majority of governments and legal commentators consider the territory to be still occupied by Israel

 

Then who should people believe? You, or experts in the matter?

 

Do you understand that this situation is a result of Hamas actions? Agenda? That it was not always like that?

 

I get it you try to minimize Hamas's role in thing, normalize it, make Israel the sole responsible party - but some measure of reality must prevail.

 

You seem to believe just sources confirming your already biased views.

[Morch]

9 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Hello, do you know me? Have you been following my life? How do you know what criticisms have been leveled against me over the last 40 years or so? Just because you haven't seen specific criticisms on this thread does not mean you know anything about my life as an American Jew. I have consistently faced criticism for being judgmental towards really bad Israeli policy. There's very much a "you're either with us or you're against us" mentality, when it comes to the Jewish state. 

 

Please at least try to be more articulate and reasoned in your replies. 

 

I'm referencing what you post on this forum, and how people react to you on here - obviously.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

You can't keep spouting the same lies (with a different date this time, why did you pick 2015?).

All relevant international agencies, the UN and most governments around the world say it is occupied territory. Your opinion is irrelevant, international law matters.

This is exactly why people get accused of being pro Hamas, or antisemitic - because people just say whatever they want without looking at the facts.

 

The test in international law is: Does the military exercise – the term is “effective control” – over the land or territory?

It’s like if the guards leave the prison, but they take all the keys with them; They’re still controlling how much food goes inside the prison each day and how much electricity goes into the prison each day. The people inside the prison are free to roam wherever they want within the confines of the prison but have no ability to be able to leave – that would be “effective control” over the prison.

This is the same way Israel exercises effective control over who and what leaves Gaza and who and what enters Gaza, as well.

 

 

According to your nonsense views, Israel controlled all them rockets and arms which made their way into the Gaza Strip. Israel is also, apparently, responsible for Hamas digging up all them tunnels. Next thing you'll charge Israel with responsibility for 7/10.....

[Morch]

As far as I'm aware, Finkelstein spent a few months in the West Bank, many years ago. Part of this or that NGO effort. Don't recall any reference of him ever setting foot in the Gaza Strip, certainly not for a prolonged period of time, but could be wrong. Claiming 'expertise' on these grounds seem flimsy, at best. Also, I don't think he's fluent in Arabic - I know for a fact Levy does not have command of the language.

[Jingthing]

10 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Israel has nor occupied Gaza since 2015. Words have meanings. The west bank is occupied.

Correction.

Obviously a typo.

The correct date is 2005.

[Brickleberry]

17 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

According to your nonsense views, Israel controlled all them rockets and arms which made their way into the Gaza Strip. Israel is also, apparently, responsible for Hamas digging up all them tunnels. Next thing you'll charge Israel with responsibility for 7/10.....

I did not say that at all. Absolutely false. I have not commented at all on Hamas or tunnels.

 

EDIT: my nonsense views, as you put it, are mainstream, legal views.

 

All of my views are backed up by international law and UN resolutions. Are you going to say the UN is antisemitic now?

Edited January 20 by Brickleberry

[Brickleberry]

23 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Do you understand that this situation is a result of Hamas actions? Agenda? That it was not always like that?

 

I get it you try to minimize Hamas's role in thing, normalize it, make Israel the sole responsible party - but some measure of reality must prevail.

 

You seem to believe just sources confirming your already biased views.

 

I make a concerted effort to watch, read and listen to both sides of the conflict. Yes, I watch Piers Morgan, Douglas Murray, Jordan Peterson and other right wing media (Talk TV, GB news etc.) - But I also try my best to find experts on the topic, and of course, listen to the left which is where most of political ideology comes from. I consider myself to be on the left, with some conservative principles. I want to know what they are saying, so I can judge for myself.

 

I did not comment on Hamas, and of course they killed a lot of people. But that does NOT give Israel the right to do whatever the hell it wants, and level the place to the ground. This is international law.

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

I did not say that at all. Absolutely false. I have not commented at all on Hamas or tunnels.

 

EDIT: my nonsense views, as you put it, are mainstream, legal views.

 

All of my views are backed up by international law and UN resolutions. Are you going to say the UN is antisemitic now?

Yes the UN is antisemitic, ask Haley, she worked there everyday.

 

Nikki Haley to 'Post': UN antisemitism led to October 7 massacre
All it takes is 24 hours at the UN to realize that anti-Zionism is just a modern name for the ancient evil of antisemitism.

https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-779118

 

Fighting Anti Israel Bias at the UN

https://unwatch.org/

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

I did not say that at all. Absolutely false. I have not commented at all on Hamas or tunnels.

 

EDIT: my nonsense views, as you put it, are mainstream, legal views.

 

All of my views are backed up by international law and UN resolutions. Are you going to say the UN is antisemitic now?

 

Here are your words:

 

Quote

Israel exercises effective control over who and what leaves Gaza and who and what enters Gaza

 

I believe that would include rockets, arms, digging machinery, and all the rest.

 

As for you taking pains not to mention Hamas, tunnels etc. - yeah, kinda noticed that.....

 

You seem to declare your  views being 'mainstream', rather than this being the case. Them again, you also claim Finkelstein and Levy aren't extreme, and that the latter is mainstream -  bizarre, to say the least.

 

I did not say anything about antisemitism - you dishonestly injected that as 'defense'. Well done.