Provisional Decision Today: ICJ Weighs Emergency Measures Amid Allegations of Genocide in Gaza

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

It seems to me that Israel is just following the law as set down in their Torah, Leviticus, in the "eye for an eye" verse. That is very sad to me, but then again, I am not Jewish. 

 

   Israel are fighting against enemy who attacked Israel , I doubt very much that the Torah was referenced before fighting back against Hamas 

[WDSmart]

50 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

 

 I did agree with your general premise: one group of militants will probably have to be "wiped out." 🥹

[Nick Carter icp]

41 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

And I did agree with your general premise: one group of militants will probably have to be "wiped out." 🥹

 

   You are  being rather deceptive and dishonest .

I stated that Hamas needed to be wiped out and you gave that a sad anonymous emoji , and you replied to the same post stating that you agree with me that Hamas/Zionists need to be wiped out .

   You wrongly accused me of saying something that I didn't and then agreed with something that I didnt say 

[Wobblybob]

33 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I don't "defend" or "justify" Hamas' attack on Oct 7, but I do think Israel's retaliation has gone way too far and needs to stop (ceasefire). Hopefully, some agreement about that which includes the return of the hostages taken on Oct 7 can be worked out.

So Hamas can carry out more of these evil incursions, not going to happen I hope. 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

Unfortunately, Israel is continuing its attacks on Palestinians, now in the West Bank. I certainly hope there is some agreement reached on the ceasefire/hostage issues very soon! 

New wave of violence sweeps West Bank as Israel launches series of raids | Palestinian territories | The Guardian

 

You do understand that this got nothing to do with the (possible) ceasefire, right?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

I do agree with you that it appears that if one or the other, Hamas or Zionists, were "wiped out," that just maybe there could be some movement forward on an agreement for an IDF ceasefire and release of hostages taken on 7 Oct. And I also agree with you that anti-Semites will continue to hate Jews and Arabs in their own country because, after all, that is why they are called "anti-Semites." 😔

 

If Zionists were to disappear, there would be no Israel. That's because Zionist doesn't mean what you insist it does. Hamas, on the other hand is a more clearly defined faction within Palestinian society/politics. Zionists would make the majority of Israelis - without necessarily attaching them nonsense labels of yours attaching things like religion, extremism, right-wing politics and so on.

 

antisemitism got nothing to do with hating Arabs.

[Morch]

52 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I thought I was agreeing with what you posted. I guess not.

I do equate the goals of Hamas and Zionists, and that is to drive the other party out of Israel/Palestine so they can totally possess it, and this they will do by any means possible.

I've never equated Donald Trump to a "fascist," but I have described Donald Trump as a neo-fascist, nationalistic, authoritarian, misogynous, homophobic, xenophobic, narcissist.  

 

You are making up stuff regarding agendas, positions. You do not even bother to support any of your nonsense with anything.

[Morch]

43 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I gave it a "sad" emoji because what you were saying, that Hamas needed to be "wiped out," was a sad statement. I wish there were some other alternative.

But, you've brought up good point that I have questions about.
- If you DISLIKE or DON'T AGREE WITH as post, what emoji should you use? A "confused" or "sad"? I wish there were just one that was an "I disagree."
- How did you know it was me that posted that emoji. I see them, but I didn't know you could find out who posted them.

Thanks...

 

What is sad about Hamas getting wiped out?

[Nick Carter icp]

2 hours ago, WDSmart said:

t. And I also agree with you that anti-Semites will continue to hate Jews and Arabs in their own country because, after all, that is why they are called "anti-Semites." 😔

 

   Just to clarify, you have stated that Israel are terrorists who need to be wiped out and Anti Semites are those who hate Arabs ?

[bannork]

https://euobserver.com/world/158022#:~:text=More than 800 serving US,even ethnic cleansing or genocide."

In an unprecedented move, 800 diplomats and civil servants from the US and Europe accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing.

[mooping20Baht]

as long as all you care about is Oct 7th, this will never end.

 

The new strategy  of Israel’s western allies and co-opted international institutions is to return to the status quo ante, resume the two-state smokescreen, recognize a bantustan, leave the root causes in place & oppose accountability for the genocidaires. A formula for more hell

Craig Mokihber

Do you know who that is?

[Wobblybob]

18 minutes ago, mooping20Baht said:

as long as all you care about is Oct 7th, this will never end.

 

The new strategy  of Israel’s western allies and co-opted international institutions is to return to the status quo ante, resume the two-state smokescreen, recognize a bantustan, leave the root causes in place & oppose accountability for the genocidaires. A formula for more hell

Craig Mokihber

Do you know who that is?

You would really like to take Oct 7th out of the equation wouldn't you, it would make it much easier for you to spout this nonsense, well, Oct 7th will not be forgotten, nor should it be, because most people care about what happened on that dreadful day. More to the point Israel is trying to make sure that there are no more Oct 7ths, even though the Palestian terrorists have promised them. 

 

[Yellowtail]

29 minutes ago, mooping20Baht said:

as long as all you care about is Oct 7th, this will never end.

 

The new strategy  of Israel’s western allies and co-opted international institutions is to return to the status quo ante, resume the two-state smokescreen, recognize a bantustan, leave the root causes in place & oppose accountability for the genocidaires. A formula for more hell

Craig Mokihber

Do you know who that is?

What is the root cause being left in place? 

[WDSmart]

13 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Just to clarify, you have stated that Israel are terrorists who need to be wiped out and Anti Semites are those who hate Arabs ?

No, I agreed with you that the militant parties on both sides (Zionists, not all Israelis) may need to be "wiped out." Yes, "anti-Semites" are people who are against ("anti") "Semites." That includes both Jews and Arabs. You can look up online the definition of "Semites" yourself.

[WDSmart]

Here is my three-step proposal to finally end this conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, or at least control it.

 

Israeli/Palestinian Conflict

Proposed Resolution of Ceasefire/Hostage Impasse

Version 1 – 2024-Feb-02

 

This Proposed Resolution has three main parts:

1.      Ceasefire

2.      Hostages

3.      Two-State Solution

 

1.     Ceasefire

On day one, Israel will begin a six-week ceasefire. This will include:

1)      An immediate cessation of military and any other destructive actions in both Gaza and the West Bank;

2)      A withdrawal of all troops and operatives from both Gaza and the West Bank. This should be done as soon as possible but completed within three weeks.

3)      The establishment of Peacekeeping forces from the UN. These should be composed of military troops, engineers, construction workers, medical staff, etc., from UN member states. These should begin entering Gaza and the West Bank as soon as Israel has withdrawn all its troops as described above, and preferably no later than three weeks after the initial ceasefire begins.

4)      The Peacekeeping forces from the UN will then enforce the ceasefire and work to start restoring the infrastructure and attending to the medical needs of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.

5)      The Peacekeeping forces will remain in Gaza and the West Bank until the Two-State Solution (see below) has been instituted, and the UN is confident that Israel and Palestine will peacefully abide by its provisions.

 

2.     Hostages

On day one, the Palestinians will begin releasing hostages.

·       They will do this over time, and in this order:

1)      Hostages with medical or other pressing needs;

2)      The Elderly;

3)      Adult single males;

4)      Adult single females;

5)      Males with children;

6)      Females with children;

7)      Single children.

·       The rate of release should mirror the rate of the ceasefire.

1)      Hostages 1 through 3 should all be released by the time all Israeli troops have been withdrawn from Gaza and the West Bank;

2)      Hostages 4 and 5 should be released after the UN Peacekeeping force is in place;

3)      Hostages 6 and 7 should be released after the Two-State Solution is in place.

 

3.     Two-State Solution

A Two-State Solution is not my first choice. I wish there could be a One-State Solution where everyone had equal rights and was treated fairly by the government in charge of the state. However, it is now obvious to me that this is impossible, at least right now. Below is my proposed Two-State Solution.

The Israeli/Palestinian map has changed greatly over time:

 

(See the link below to view maps)

 

·       The Proposed Two-State Solution will be generally based on the original UN Plan of 1947 and is shown below:

(See the link below to view the Proposed Solution Map)

 

It divides the land into approximately the same proportion as the 1947 UN Plan but completely separates the two states. The UN Peacekeeping Forces will be responsible for relocating and settling Israelis and Palestinians affected.

The UN Peacekeepers will remain onsite until all those needing relocating and settling are accommodated and until the UN is confident that Israel and Palestine will peacefully abide by its provisions.

   

No Rights Reserved.

Non-Copyright 2024 - W. D. Smart

All parts of this proposal may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical, including photocopying, recording, or any information storage and retrieval system, without any further permission from the author.

 

The author encourages the wide and free dissemination of this material.

 
Here is the link:
Rung & Bill: Israel/Palestine Proposed Resolution (billsmart.com)

 

[Bkk Brian]

13 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

No, I agreed with you that the militant parties on both sides (Zionists, not all Israelis) may need to be "wiped out." Yes, "anti-Semites" are people who are against ("anti") "Semites." That includes both Jews and Arabs. You can look up online the definition of "Semites" yourself.

Nobody said that Zionists should be wiped out apart from you and Hamas. You do realize there are a couple of thousand Arabs fighting for the IDF too right?

 

As for you reference to the term "anti-Semites" I think since you first mentioned this months ago and since that time carried on mentioning it at least a dozen times, we have all checked references to see that it can be used for both. However you are making noise, as you know, absolutely everyone in media, forums and general debates uses it as a term that a person who is hostile to or prejudiced against Jewish people.

 

So cut the crap and off topic deflection.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, mooping20Baht said:

as long as all you care about is Oct 7th, this will never end.

 

The new strategy  of Israel’s western allies and co-opted international institutions is to return to the status quo ante, resume the two-state smokescreen, recognize a bantustan, leave the root causes in place & oppose accountability for the genocidaires. A formula for more hell

Craig Mokihber

Do you know who that is?

 

@mooping20Baht

 

As long as you lot try to deflect, obfuscate and deny 7/10, or the ideology that stands behind it - this will never end.

 

As for the usual host of inflammatory, disjointed and unclear comments - you do not actually state what 'solution' you're after. I'm guessing it's not too far from what's specified in the Hamas Charter?

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Here is my three-step proposal to finally end this conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, or at least control it.

 

Israeli/Palestinian Conflict

Proposed Resolution of Ceasefire/Hostage Impasse

Version 1 – 2024-Feb-02

 

This Proposed Resolution has three main parts:

1.      Ceasefire

2.      Hostages

3.      Two-State Solution

 

1.     Ceasefire

On day one, Israel will begin a six-week ceasefire. This will include:

1)      An immediate cessation of military and any other destructive actions in both Gaza and the West Bank;

2)      A withdrawal of all troops and operatives from both Gaza and the West Bank. This should be done as soon as possible but completed within three weeks.

3)      The establishment of Peacekeeping forces from the UN. These should be composed of military troops, engineers, construction workers, medical staff, etc., from UN member states. These should begin entering Gaza and the West Bank as soon as Israel has withdrawn all its troops as described above, and preferably no later than three weeks after the initial ceasefire begins.

4)      The Peacekeeping forces from the UN will then enforce the ceasefire and work to start restoring the infrastructure and attending to the medical needs of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.

5)      The Peacekeeping forces will remain in Gaza and the West Bank until the Two-State Solution (see below) has been instituted, and the UN is confident that Israel and Palestine will peacefully abide by its provisions.

 

2.     Hostages

On day one, the Palestinians will begin releasing hostages.

·       They will do this over time, and in this order:

1)      Hostages with medical or other pressing needs;

2)      The Elderly;

3)      Adult single males;

4)      Adult single females;

5)      Males with children;

6)      Females with children;

7)      Single children.

·       The rate of release should mirror the rate of the ceasefire.

1)      Hostages 1 through 3 should all be released by the time all Israeli troops have been withdrawn from Gaza and the West Bank;

2)      Hostages 4 and 5 should be released after the UN Peacekeeping force is in place;

3)      Hostages 6 and 7 should be released after the Two-State Solution is in place.

 

3.     Two-State Solution

A Two-State Solution is not my first choice. I wish there could be a One-State Solution where everyone had equal rights and was treated fairly by the government in charge of the state. However, it is now obvious to me that this is impossible, at least right now. Below is my proposed Two-State Solution.

The Israeli/Palestinian map has changed greatly over time:

 

(See the link below to view maps)

 

·       The Proposed Two-State Solution will be generally based on the original UN Plan of 1947 and is shown below:

(See the link below to view the Proposed Solution Map)

 

It divides the land into approximately the same proportion as the 1947 UN Plan but completely separates the two states. The UN Peacekeeping Forces will be responsible for relocating and settling Israelis and Palestinians affected.

The UN Peacekeepers will remain onsite until all those needing relocating and settling are accommodated and until the UN is confident that Israel and Palestine will peacefully abide by its provisions.

   

No Rights Reserved.

Non-Copyright 2024 - W. D. Smart

All parts of this proposal may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical, including photocopying, recording, or any information storage and retrieval system, without any further permission from the author.

 

The author encourages the wide and free dissemination of this material.

 
Here is the link:
Rung & Bill: Israel/Palestine Proposed Resolution (billsmart.com)

 

Hamas would be proud

[Morch]

21 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

No, I agreed with you that the militant parties on both sides (Zionists, not all Israelis) may need to be "wiped out." Yes, "anti-Semites" are people who are against ("anti") "Semites." That includes both Jews and Arabs. You can look up online the definition of "Semites" yourself.

 

No, that would be just you insisting on stuff which is not true. You cannot even differentiate who them Zionists are, cannot define the group, leaders, ideology or anything. Same goes for your antisemitism waffle - do you know of many instances in which the word was used with relation to 'Arabs'?

 

You're just being willfully ignorant, or trolling. Choose carefully.

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Here is my three-step proposal to finally end this conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, or at least control it.

 

Israeli/Palestinian Conflict

Proposed Resolution of Ceasefire/Hostage Impasse

Version 1 – 2024-Feb-02

 

This Proposed Resolution has three main parts:

1.      Ceasefire

2.      Hostages

3.      Two-State Solution

 

1.     Ceasefire

On day one, Israel will begin a six-week ceasefire. This will include:

1)      An immediate cessation of military and any other destructive actions in both Gaza and the West Bank;

2)      A withdrawal of all troops and operatives from both Gaza and the West Bank. This should be done as soon as possible but completed within three weeks.

3)      The establishment of Peacekeeping forces from the UN. These should be composed of military troops, engineers, construction workers, medical staff, etc., from UN member states. These should begin entering Gaza and the West Bank as soon as Israel has withdrawn all its troops as described above, and preferably no later than three weeks after the initial ceasefire begins.

4)      The Peacekeeping forces from the UN will then enforce the ceasefire and work to start restoring the infrastructure and attending to the medical needs of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.

5)      The Peacekeeping forces will remain in Gaza and the West Bank until the Two-State Solution (see below) has been instituted, and the UN is confident that Israel and Palestine will peacefully abide by its provisions.

 

2.     Hostages

On day one, the Palestinians will begin releasing hostages.

·       They will do this over time, and in this order:

1)      Hostages with medical or other pressing needs;

2)      The Elderly;

3)      Adult single males;

4)      Adult single females;

5)      Males with children;

6)      Females with children;

7)      Single children.

·       The rate of release should mirror the rate of the ceasefire.

1)      Hostages 1 through 3 should all be released by the time all Israeli troops have been withdrawn from Gaza and the West Bank;

2)      Hostages 4 and 5 should be released after the UN Peacekeeping force is in place;

3)      Hostages 6 and 7 should be released after the Two-State Solution is in place.

 

3.     Two-State Solution

A Two-State Solution is not my first choice. I wish there could be a One-State Solution where everyone had equal rights and was treated fairly by the government in charge of the state. However, it is now obvious to me that this is impossible, at least right now. Below is my proposed Two-State Solution.

The Israeli/Palestinian map has changed greatly over time:

 

(See the link below to view maps)

 

·       The Proposed Two-State Solution will be generally based on the original UN Plan of 1947 and is shown below:

(See the link below to view the Proposed Solution Map)

 

It divides the land into approximately the same proportion as the 1947 UN Plan but completely separates the two states. The UN Peacekeeping Forces will be responsible for relocating and settling Israelis and Palestinians affected.

The UN Peacekeepers will remain onsite until all those needing relocating and settling are accommodated and until the UN is confident that Israel and Palestine will peacefully abide by its provisions.

   

No Rights Reserved.

Non-Copyright 2024 - W. D. Smart

All parts of this proposal may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical, including photocopying, recording, or any information storage and retrieval system, without any further permission from the author.

 

The author encourages the wide and free dissemination of this material.

 
Here is the link:
Rung & Bill: Israel/Palestine Proposed Resolution (billsmart.com)

 

 

This is one of the most ignorant, stupid 'proposals' I have ever read. It showcases so much bias, so much disconnect with facts it's breathtaking.

 

Them bogus maps memes are a laugh. They have nothing to do with reality. Same goes for the new 'edition'.

 

And that's after claiming to follow things....way out in la la land, you are.

[WDSmart]

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

This is one of the most ignorant, stupid 'proposals' I have ever read. It showcases so much bias, so much disconnect with facts it's breathtaking.

 

Them bogus maps memes are a laugh. They have nothing to do with reality. Same goes for the new 'edition'.

 

And that's after claiming to follow things....way out in la la land, you are.

Well, I've many times been asked what my proposal for a settlement would be. So, I wrote it up for all to read.

http://www.billsmart.com/writing/opinion/Israel_Palestine/Israel_Palestine Resolution v1.htm

If you have specific comments, let me know. I'll consider changing, removing, or adding things, and then create a Version 2.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions you have.

Edited February 3 by WDSmart

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Well, I've many times been asked what my proposal for a settlement would be. So, I wrote it up for all to read.

http://www.billsmart.com/writing/opinion/Israel_Palestine/Israel_Palestine Resolution v1.htm

If you have specific comments, let me know. I'll consider changing, removing, or adding things, and then create a Version 2.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions you have.

 

I'd start with editing out 'pro-palestinian' propaganda materials like them standard issue 'maps'.  Then I'd advice having a clue what you comment about, before making 'proposals' - considering you have but a foggy clue regarding the sides comprising the parties, their ideologies, composition and so on.

Edited February 3 by Morch

[WDSmart]

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I'd start with editing out 'pro-palestinian' propaganda materials like them standard issue 'maps'.  Then I'd advice having a clue what you comment about, before making 'proposals' - considering you have but a foggy clue regarding the sides comprising the parties, their ideologies, composition and so on.

Do the allegations you're making that lead you to think I'm not qualified to propose a settlement apply only to me, or could they also be applied to you? Maybe that is why I've never seen a proposal of how this conflict can "finally" be resolved by you.

[Morch]

Just now, WDSmart said:

Do the allegations you're making that lead you to think I'm not qualified to propose a settlement apply only to me, or could they also be applied to you? Maybe that is why I've never seen a proposal of how this conflict can "finally" be resolved by you.

 

I did not claim that I have a magic solution, or that there's a readily available possible way to solve things. On the contrary, I commented that even if there is some agreement reached, actually implementing it (never mind sides changing their stances), would be an uphill battle.

 

That aside, I do often comment on specifics of such plans, offers, initiatives and so on - with the benefit of actually having quite a bit of knowledge on things, yes.

 

Again, you're just deflecting - your posting history does not betray anything close to having a clue regarding the basic concepts involved. Your position in no way relates to positions of sides involve. In fact, you do not seem to even have a clear grasp of who the sides are.

 

And yes, them 'maps' you included are bogus. Incorrect. Misleading. Propaganda material. And as for the 'latest addition' - obviously done without a look at an actual map, realizing what it implies or anything.

 

Comes down to the same thing - you're either ignorant or trolling. Maybe some of both. Don't know, don't care.

[WDSmart]

25 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I did not claim that I have a magic solution, or that there's a readily available possible way to solve things. On the contrary, I commented that even if there is some agreement reached, actually implementing it (never mind sides changing their stances), would be an uphill battle.

 

That aside, I do often comment on specifics of such plans, offers, initiatives and so on - with the benefit of actually having quite a bit of knowledge on things, yes.

 

Again, you're just deflecting - your posting history does not betray anything close to having a clue regarding the basic concepts involved. Your position in no way relates to positions of sides involve. In fact, you do not seem to even have a clear grasp of who the sides are.

 

And yes, them 'maps' you included are bogus. Incorrect. Misleading. Propaganda material. And as for the 'latest addition' - obviously done without a look at an actual map, realizing what it implies or anything.

 

Comes down to the same thing - you're either ignorant or trolling. Maybe some of both. Don't know, don't care.

The solution I suggested is not "magic." It comes from my understanding of the situation and of people in general.

I believe I do have a clear idea of what the sides are, and there are not just two distinct sides. There is a mix of people with different ideas and goals on each side. My proposal would not be agreeable to all, but I've tried to construct it so it would be at least acceptable, even if only reluctantly, to most.

The maps are from MSNBC, which I would think you'd accept as a "reliable source."

I'm neither ignorant nor trolling. And I suspect the reason you don't care to seriously consider my proposal is you are arrogant and don't have one of your own. 

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

The solution I suggested is not "magic." It comes from my understanding of the situation and of people in general.

I believe I do have a clear idea of what the sides are, and there are not just two distinct sides. There is a mix of people with different ideas and goals on each side. My proposal would not be agreeable to all, but I've tried to construct it so it would be at least acceptable, even if only reluctantly, to most.

The maps are from MSNBC, which I would think you'd accept as a "reliable source."

I'm neither ignorant nor trolling. And I suspect the reason you don't care to seriously consider my proposal is you are arrogant and don't have one of your own. 

 

I'm neither ignorant nor trolling. 

 

I disagree, a proposal that keeps Hamas in place, does not release the last hostages until there is a 2 state solution and UN peacekeeping force in place with all IDF out of Gaza as well is about as ignorant, bias and Hamas apologist as is possible. Its a total farce. No discussion needed further. Its about the most ridiculous thing I've read. In fact quite disgusting to even suggest.

 

Its a Hamas waving piece of ...........

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I'm neither ignorant nor trolling. 

 

I disagree, a proposal that keeps Hamas in place, does not release the last hostages until there is a 2 state solution and UN peacekeeping force in place with all IDF out of Gaza as well is about as ignorant, bias and Hamas apologist as is possible. Its a total farce. No discussion needed further. Its about the most ridiculous thing I've read. In fact quite disgusting to even suggest.

 

Its a Hamas waving piece of ...........

 

Imagining that Hamas would release the last hostages until there is a permanent deal in place is unimaginably ignorant.

[WDSmart]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

Imagining that Hamas would release the last hostages until there is a permanent deal in place is unimaginably ignorant.

My reasoning behind that I believe as soon as Hamas releases all the hostages, the IDF forces would resume their destruction of Gaza and intensify their militant actions in the West Bank. Without hostages, Hamas/Palestine has no bargaining power.

[WDSmart]

6 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I'm neither ignorant nor trolling. 

 

I disagree, a proposal that keeps Hamas in place, does not release the last hostages until there is a 2 state solution and UN peacekeeping force in place with all IDF out of Gaza as well is about as ignorant, bias and Hamas apologist as is possible. Its a total farce. No discussion needed further. Its about the most ridiculous thing I've read. In fact quite disgusting to even suggest.

 

Its a Hamas waving piece of ...........

My reasoning behind that I believe as soon as Hamas releases all the hostages, the IDF forces would resume their destruction of Gaza and intensify their militant actions in the West Bank. Without hostages, Hamas/Palestine has no bargaining power.

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Imagining that Hamas would release the last hostages until there is a permanent deal in place is unimaginably ignorant.

Yes I know......