rabas Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 17 minutes ago, WDSmart said: As I've said in early posts, my simple "half and half" map was mostly just suggestive. It could be done more proportionally to the population, which, I think, is about 60/40 (60% Israelis). But as I said earlier, whatever map is the result would have to have the two states separate but contiguous within their own state. It couldn't have two separate territories like now with Gaza and the West Bank. But yes, any map like that would inevitably involve the disruption of some Israeli establishments. I don't know how a fair and equitable map could be drawn without doing that. How about giving Israel the north where they are now and give Gazans and Palestinians the south? Seems vastly more practical. The hardest part of such agreements is getting parties to agree. Edited February 4 by rabas 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bkk Brian Posted February 4 Popular Post Share Posted February 4 Interesting read although nothing too new for those of us keeping up to date. Israel Implemented More Measures to Prevent Civilian Casualties Than Any Other Nation in History | Opinion I say this not to put Israel on a pedestal or to diminish the human suffering of Gazans but rather to correct a number of misperceptions when it comes to urban warfare. The reality is that when it comes to avoiding civilian harm, there is no modern comparison to Israel's war against Hamas. Israel is not fighting a battle like Fallujah, Mosul, or Raqqa; it is fighting a war involving synchronous major urban battles. No military in modern history has faced over 30,000 urban defenders in more than seven cities using human shields and hiding in hundreds of miles of underground networks purposely built under civilian sites, while holding hundreds of hostages. https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezzra Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 12 minutes ago, rabas said: How about giving Israel the north where they are now and give Gazans and Palestinians the south? Seems vastly more practical. The hardest part of such agreements is getting parties to agree. How about all Palestinians leaving to go settle in Jordan, a fantasy country promulgated and invented by the British back in 1946 and headed by puppet king where over 50% of its population are Palestinians and the current king doesn't even lift a finger to help the other lots of Palestinians in Gaza and West bank?, so why aren't they going to live and settle in a country with vast empty land, space and resources, to be among their brothers and sisters?... 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WDSmart Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 28 minutes ago, rabas said: How about giving Israel the north where they are now and give Gazans and Palestinians the south? Seems vastly more practical. The hardest part of such agreements is getting parties to agree. That's a good suggestion. I only chose the opposite since that was more like the structure of the UN 1947 Map. Any division is okay with me as long as both parties agree. As I've said before, I'd rather see a one-state solution where all parties have the same rights and are treated equally. I'd like to see them all sit down arm-in-arm between their temples and mosques and sing "Kumbaya," but I don't think there is much chance of that ever happening. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post beautifulthailand99 Posted February 4 Popular Post Share Posted February 4 (edited) 26 minutes ago, ezzra said: How about all Palestinians leaving to go settle in Jordan, a fantasy country promulgated and invented by the British back in 1946 and headed by puppet king where over 50% of its population are Palestinians and the current king doesn't even lift a finger to help the other lots of Palestinians in Gaza and West bank?, so why aren't they going to live and settle in a country with vast empty land, space and resources, to be among their brothers and sisters?... A spurious argument in the extreme why should they it's their land and the land of their forefathers for generations unlike many of the European settlers from European genocide. Why don't the Unionists in Northern Ireland go back to Scotland and solve the Irish problem once and for all ? It most certainly wasn't a land without people for a people without a land. A real mask off moment as well with your ALL Palestinians it's called ethnic cleansing it often accompanies a genocide. Edited February 4 by beautifulthailand99 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beautifulthailand99 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 16 minutes ago, WDSmart said: That's a good suggestion. I only chose the opposite since that was more like the structure of the UN 1947 Map. Any division is okay with me as long as both parties agree. As I've said before, I'd rather see a one-state solution where all parties have the same rights and are treated equally. I'd like to see them all sit down arm-in-arm between their temples and mosques and sing "Kumbaya," but I don't think there is much chance of that ever happening. Helpfully the Israeli Levithian that is Gideon Levy has done some work on fleshing out how that could work but reckons with the current generation of Israelis it's a lost cause. https://www.pij.org/articles/1906/one-state-two-nations 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezzra Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 10 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said: A spurious argument in the extreme why should they it's their land and the land of their forefathers for generations unlike many of the European settlers from European genocide. Why don't the Unionists in Northern Ireland go back to Scotland and solve the Irish problem once and for all ? It most certainly wasn't a land without people for a people without a land. A real mask off moment as well with your ALL Palestinians it's called ethnic cleansing it often accompanies a genocide. it's their land and the land of their forefathers for generations??? and you arrived to this conclusion exactly how? The biblical Jewish people inhabited the land long before the words Arabs and Islam ever came to be, Many Palestinian villagers claim ancestral ties to Arab tribes that settled in Palestine during or after the Arab conquest, while others trace their roots to Turkish, North African, Kurdish, Egyptian, and Turkman origins. Some claim Jewish or Samaritan ancestry based on oral traditions. Genetic studies reveal that modern Palestinians share genetic continuity with Bronze Age Levantine populations and exhibit similarity with both contemporary Jewish and Arab-speaking Levantine groups.. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neeranam Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 2 hours ago, WDSmart said: I'm a US citizen, and I think the reason the US government supports Israel so much is because, up to now, the US public was fervently AGAINST Arabs because of the 911 attacks. There were some anti-Arab, anti-Muslim sentiments before that. I think that was based on religion. Most US citizens are Christians or claim to be, and because the Old Testament in the Christian Bible is fundamentally the same as the Torah, the Jewish holy book, they feel a kindred spirit toward Judaism. It's not the same with Islam. Most US citizens only think of Muslims as extremists, Jihadis. That's why I think the US government has supported Israel, but that could change if more US citizens began to judge the extreme Israeli attacks on Gaza as unacceptable. I, of course, already do. Thanks. Do you think it has anything to do with the large number of influential Jewish politicians in the government at Secretary level? Some that come to mind are :- Blinken, Secretary of State Yellen, Secretary of the Treasury - Mnuchin previously. Mayorkas, Sec of Homeland Security Jeff Rosen, Acting Attorney General, formerly Garland Shulkin, Sectretary of Veteran Affairs (Kamala Harris has a Jewish husband) So those with interests in Israel are over represented when the Jewish population of the US is not that large. Also Former United States Ambassador to the United Nations Director of Central Intelligence Maybe just a coincidence, but I feel this is a religious war more than political. Edited February 4 by Neeranam 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ozimoron Posted February 4 Popular Post Share Posted February 4 1 minute ago, Neeranam said: Thanks. Do you think it has anything to do with the large number of influential Jewish politicians in the government at Secretary level? Some that come to mind are :- Blinken, Secretary of State Yellen, Secretary of the Treasury - Mnuchin previously. Mayorkas, Sec of Homeland Security Jeff Rosen, Acting Attorney General, formerly Garland Shulkin, Sectretary of Veteran Affairs Also United States Ambassador to the United Nations Director of Central Intelligence Maybe just a coincidence, but I feel this is a religious war. It is not a religious war, it's a war over land and water. 1 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neeranam Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 10 minutes ago, ozimoron said: It is not a religious war, it's a war over land and water. So why does the US want land in the Middle East? there nothing for them there, apart from oil 🙂 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff the Chef Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 11 minutes ago, Neeranam said: So why does the US want land in the Middle East? there nothing for them there, apart from oil 🙂 The oil is one thing, there's a lot of profit in wars: The Companies Profiting from Israel’s 2023-2024 Attacks on Gaza https://afsc.org/companies-2023-attack-gaza 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 12 minutes ago, Neeranam said: So why does the US want land in the Middle East? there nothing for them there, apart from oil 🙂 The US wants what the Israeli political lobby wants it to want. That said, the US isn't a party to the actual conflict itself. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowtail Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 9 minutes ago, ozimoron said: The US wants what the Israeli political lobby wants it to want. That said, the US isn't a party to the actual conflict itself. Yeah, it's sad the way Biden is in the bag for the evil extreme right wing Israel lobby. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WDSmart Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 47 minutes ago, ezzra said: it's their land and the land of their forefathers for generations??? and you arrived to this conclusion exactly how? The biblical Jewish people inhabited the land long before the words Arabs and Islam ever came to be, Many Palestinian villagers claim ancestral ties to Arab tribes that settled in Palestine during or after the Arab conquest, while others trace their roots to Turkish, North African, Kurdish, Egyptian, and Turkman origins. Some claim Jewish or Samaritan ancestry based on oral traditions. Genetic studies reveal that modern Palestinians share genetic continuity with Bronze Age Levantine populations and exhibit similarity with both contemporary Jewish and Arab-speaking Levantine groups.. I'd like to respond to you with some information that partially contradicts what you've stated above, but I've been asked not to give "history lessons." I'll only hint at that using two words: "genocide" and "Canaanites." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WDSmart Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 55 minutes ago, Neeranam said: Thanks. Do you think it has anything to do with the large number of influential Jewish politicians in the government at Secretary level? Some that come to mind are :- Blinken, Secretary of State Yellen, Secretary of the Treasury - Mnuchin previously. Mayorkas, Sec of Homeland Security Jeff Rosen, Acting Attorney General, formerly Garland Shulkin, Sectretary of Veteran Affairs (Kamala Harris has a Jewish husband) So those with interests in Israel are over represented when the Jewish population of the US is not that large. Also Former United States Ambassador to the United Nations Director of Central Intelligence Maybe just a coincidence, but I feel this is a religious war more than political. Yes, I suspect those Jewish politicians and statesmen do have something to do with the USA's current support of Israel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowtail Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 minute ago, WDSmart said: Yes, I suspect those Jewish politicians and statesmen do have something to do with the USA's current support of Israel. One would think the Biden administration would be more diverse. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WDSmart Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 56 minutes ago, ozimoron said: It is not a religious war, it's a war over land and water. I agree that land and water are what are at the forefront, but behind it all, I do believe much of it is, especially for the extremists on both sides, religiously based. After all, if you think your god gave you that land, you wouln't tolerate anyone else taking it from you, would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowtail Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 2 minutes ago, WDSmart said: I agree that land and water are what are at the forefront, but behind it all, I do believe much of it is, especially for the extremists on both sides, religiously based. After all, if you think your god gave you that land, you wouln't tolerate anyone else taking it from you, would you? So why do you think Palestine is spending all their money on tunnels and rockets rather that water projects and land development? Too many Jews in the Biden administration? Too many Arab and Muslim haters post 911? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 12 minutes ago, WDSmart said: I agree that land and water are what are at the forefront, but behind it all, I do believe much of it is, especially for the extremists on both sides, religiously based. After all, if you think your god gave you that land, you wouln't tolerate anyone else taking it from you, would you? I think extremists use religion as a moral justification to fight over resources. No reasonable person will admit to just being greedy and unfair. I reject any notion of God so I find it abhorrent that people would invoke religion as justification to fight over land. It is, by definition, genocide, no matter which side invokes it. Edited February 4 by ozimoron 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WDSmart Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 9 minutes ago, Yellowtail said: So why do you think Palestine is spending all their money on tunnels and rockets rather that water projects and land development? Too many Jews in the Biden administration? Too many Arab and Muslim haters post 911? I think Palestine is spending more money on defensive and offensive military items than domestic assistance projects because those in charge of the government, and most of the general public, are more concerned with defending themselves while trying to hold on to what land they still have than improving their living conditions. I never thought about how many Jews (or women or non-Whites, etc.) are in the Biden administration. I don't know what "too many" would be. Would that be more than the mean percentage? And if so, how much above that would be "too many"? My thoughts on "too many" Arab- and Muslim-haters post-9/11 are the same as above. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WDSmart Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 54 minutes ago, ozimoron said: I think extremists use religion as a moral justification to fight over resources. No reasonable person will admit to just being greedy and unfair. I reject any notion of God so I find it abhorrent that people would invoke religion as justification to fight over land. It is, by definition, genocide, no matter which side invokes it. I agree and have expressed this by using the quote below as the ending of my book, Jihadi: Path to Heaven: "Religious war at its simplest is killing each other over who has the best imaginary friend." - Richard Jeni 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 5 hours ago, WDSmart said: I do think they should negotiate a release of the hostages, but I think that needs to be part of a much larger agreement. Here is a link to my more detailed proposal that I posted yesterday, which includes my proposal for a phased release of the hostages. http://www.billsmart.com/writing/opinion/Israel_Palestine/Israel_Palestine Resolution v1.htm Why do you think it 'needs' to be part of a much larger agreement? How does such a comment is anything but endorsing hostage taking as a legit negotiation practice? Your 'proposal' is nonsense. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 4 hours ago, Neeranam said: Anyone with any integrity will join these marches. Anyone that is, who is not an Islamophobe. What annoys me is that it hatred of Palestinians/Muslims is accepted on some media but hatred of Israelis is not. Double standards. Making up stuff, as usual. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 4 hours ago, simple1 said: The point is persons within governments have voiced their concerns with their government policies and have been ignored. Accordingly they have now gone public. I suggest even if a million public servants within US government had gone public you would still belittle their concerns. Increasingly Israeli killings within Gaza are gaining criticism, as well as by Settlers in the West Bank. IMO the Israeli killings of civilians in Gaza and the West Bank are eroding Israeli support and way out of the bounds of a credible response to the murderous Hamas attack on Oct 7. It will be interesting to follow if Israel and the Palestinians can achieve a lasting peace after this murderous affair. We hear a whole lot of talk from faux 'pro-palestinian' posters here about how UNRWA's workers dumped for involvement with Hamas's 7/10 attack are 'a few rotten apples' (or some such). By the same rationale.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retarius Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 2 hours ago, ezzra said: it's their land and the land of their forefathers for generations??? and you arrived to this conclusion exactly how? The biblical Jewish people inhabited the land long before the words Arabs and Islam ever came to be, Many Palestinian villagers claim ancestral ties to Arab tribes that settled in Palestine during or after the Arab conquest, while others trace their roots to Turkish, North African, Kurdish, Egyptian, and Turkman origins. Some claim Jewish or Samaritan ancestry based on oral traditions. Genetic studies reveal that modern Palestinians share genetic continuity with Bronze Age Levantine populations and exhibit similarity with both contemporary Jewish and Arab-speaking Levantine groups.. So why don't you advocate give America back to the American Indians then? They were there before the white colonists? Or Australia back to the Aborigines? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff the Chef Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 hour ago, Yellowtail said: One would think the Biden administration would be more diverse. This report classifies approximately 5.8 million adults (2.4% of all U.S. adults) as Jewish. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/the-size-of-the-u-s-jewish-population/ Jews in the Biden Administration: Aaron Keyak Deputy Envoy to Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism Alan Leventhal U.S. Ambassador to Denmark Alejandro Mayorkas Secretary of Homeland Security Amos Hochstein Bureau of Energy Resources Special Envoy Amy Gutmann U.S. Ambassador to Germany Anne Neuberger Deputy National Security Adviser for Cybersecurity Avril Haines Director of National Intelligence Constance Milstein U.S. Ambassador to Malta Dan Shapiro Adviser on Iran (2021-2023), Senior Advisor for Regional Integration (2023), Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Middle East Policy (2023-2024) Daniel Rosenblum U.S. Ambassador to Kazakhstan David Cohen CIA Deputy Director David Cohen U.S. Ambassador to Canada David Kessler Co-chair of the COVID-19 Advisory Board and Head of Operation Warp Speed David Pressman U.S. Ambassador to Hungary Deborah Lipstadt Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism Edward Siskel White House Counsel Ellen Germain U.S. Special Envoy for Holocaust Issues Eric Garcetti U.S. Ambassador to India Eric Lander Science and Technology Adviser Gary Gensler Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) Chairman* Genine Macks Fidler National Council on the Humanities Jack Lew U.S. Ambassador to Israel (replaced Thomas Nides) Jack Markell U.S. Ambassador to Italy and San Marino Janet Yellin Secretary of Treasury Jared Bernstein Council of Economic Advisers Jed Kolko Under Secretary of Commerce for Economic Affairs at the Department of Commerce Jeffrey Zients COVID-19 Response Coordinator (2021-2023), Chief of Staff (2023) Jennifer Klein Co-chair Council on Gender Policy Jessica Rosenworcel Chair of the Federal Communications Commission Jonathan Kanter Assistant Attorney General in the United States Department of Justice Antitrust Division Jonathan Kaplan U.S. Ambassador to Singapore Mandy Cohen Director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (2023) replaced Rochelle Walensky Marc Nathanson U.S. Ambassador to Norway Marc Ostfield U.S. Ambassador to Paraguay Marc Stanley U.S. Ambassador to Argentina Mark Gitenstein U.S. Ambassador to the European Union Merrick Garland Attorney General Michael Adler U.S. Ambassador to Belgium Michèle Taylor U.S. Representative to the United Nations Human Rights Council Mira Resnick State Department Deputy Assistant Secretary for Regional Security Ned Price** State Department Spokesperson Polly Trottenberg Deputy Secretary of Transportation Rachel Levine Deputy Health Secretary Rahm Emanuel U.S. Ambassador to Japan Randi Charno Levine U.S. Ambassador to Portugal Roberta Jacobson National Security Council “border czar” Rochelle Walensky Director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (2021 - resigned July 2023) Ron Klain Chief of Staff (2021-2023), replaced by Jeffrey Zients Sharon Kleinbaum Commissioner of the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom Shelley Greenspan White House liaison to the Jewish community Stephanie Pollack Deputy Administrator of the Federal Highway Administration (resigned February 2023) Steven Dettelbach Director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Stuart Eizenstat Special Adviser on Holocaust Issues Tony Blinken Secretary of State Wendy Sherman Deputy Secretary of State (resigned July 2023) Yael Lempert U.S. Ambassador to Jordan *Nominated by Biden but serves a five-year term and not technically a member of the administration. **Price has a Jewish father and Christian mother and identifies as Jewish. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jews-in-the-biden-administration 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Morch Posted February 4 Popular Post Share Posted February 4 5 hours ago, Neeranam said: Some people support the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocents. I can't bear to read their posts any more. The only reason I can think of is an irrational fear and hatred of Muslims. Most of the Israeli supporters on this forum have the decency/integrity to stop their public support but a couple linger on. @Neeranam actually not many people support what you allege - that's just you making up stuff, bordering on defamation. Kinda risky being a Thai citizen, but some people like to live on the edge, I guess. The usual baiting comments about 'Israeli supporters' are rubbish, but expected. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 4 hours ago, WDSmart said: I'm a US citizen, and I think the reason the US government supports Israel so much is because, up to now, the US public was fervently AGAINST Arabs because of the 911 attacks. There were some anti-Arab, anti-Muslim sentiments before that. I think that was based on religion. Most US citizens are Christians or claim to be, and because the Old Testament in the Christian Bible is fundamentally the same as the Torah, the Jewish holy book, they feel a kindred spirit toward Judaism. It's not the same with Islam. Most US citizens only think of Muslims as extremists, Jihadis. That's why I think the US government has supported Israel, but that could change if more US citizens began to judge the extreme Israeli attacks on Gaza as unacceptable. I, of course, already do. Christians persecuted Jews for well over a millennia. Kindred spirit.... Maybe get a clue as to the creed preached by evangelicals to get a handle on things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 4 hours ago, ozimoron said: Among the older demographic there is more islamophobia for sure but I think the issue here is political power. I'm not sure if antisemitism is trending or not, it's been pretty bad since WW2 @ozimoron Not sure how? Headlines on this pretty regularly. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 4 hours ago, WDSmart said: As I've said in early posts, my simple "half and half" map was mostly just suggestive and based on the UN'a 1947 proportions. It could be done more proportionally to the current population, which, I think, is about 60/40 (60% Israelis). But as I said earlier, whatever map is the result would have to have the two states separate but contiguous within their own state. It couldn't have two separate territories like now with Gaza and the West Bank. But yes, any map like that would inevitably involve the disruption of some Israeli establishments. I don't know how a fair and equitable map could be drawn without doing that. Maybe consult past offers made, and suggestion regarding access between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank before trying to come up with nonsense 'solutions'. Edited February 4 by Morch 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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