UK frozen pension returning to UK and going overseas again at a later date!

[Thailand]

A question I have recently asked the DWP.  

 

A person returning to the UK for a period of time can apply to get the full pension entitlement based on contributions whilst in the UK or a country where agreements apply, mainly the EU.

 

When returning  to the original  country of residence the pension returns to the original "frozen" amount, that I understand.

 

The question I asked the DWP was if a person was to return to the UK for a period of say one year and then go to another country where the "freeze" applies would the pension then be frozen at the rate that was received for the one year in the UK or what. 
This was the answer "your rate will return to the frozen rate applied when you first left the UK."  which was quite a shock and seemed most peculiar but was confirmed by another response from the DWP.

 

Still sounds wrong has anyone gone through this experience?

 

Just to rub it in if you return to the UK and expect to receive health care from the NHS you may well find the applies also-

"People who live outside the EEA, including former UK residents, should now make sure they are covered by personal health insurance, unless an exemption applies to them. Anyone who does not have insurance will be charged at 150% of the NHS national tariff for any care they receive."

 

[hotandsticky]

I can't speak for the DWP but I can say that if you go to a 'frozen' country yourpension should revert to the original frozen amount you were getting 

[CharlieKo]

DWP are right. Your pension is set on the day you become eligible to collect it. You then left to a country where your pension gets frozen, no longer entitled to annual increases. When you return the increase in the pension is still based on the day it was set (based also on Contributions). So if you go to a country where your pension would be frozen again. You would revert back to your frozen pension amount. You lose the increase because you are no longer living in the UK.    

[Thailand]

6 minutes ago, CharlieKo said:

DWP are right. Your pension is set on the day you become eligible to collect it. You then left to a country where your pension gets frozen, no longer entitled to annual increases. When you return the increase in the pension is still based on the day it was set (based also on Contributions). So if you go to a country where your pension would be frozen again. You would revert back to your frozen pension amount. You lose the increase because you are no longer living in the UK.    

Would this also apply if you lived in the UK for say 10 years after returning and then went to another “frozen” country. It would revert to the original “frozen” pension? 

 

NB - No intention of doing any of these things just a question that came up recently.

Edited February 3 by Thailand

[hotandsticky]

13 minutes ago, Thailand said:

Would this also apply if you lived in the UK for say 10 years after returning and then went to another “frozen” country. It would revert to the original “frozen” pension? 

 

NB - No intention of doing any of these things just a question that came up recently.

 

 

I was advised by IPC something along the lines of..."You keep the increase for the duration of your stay in the UK whether that is 6 weeks or 6 years; it then reverts on your return to the original frozen amount".

 

Admittedly, I didn't ask about leaving to a different 'frozen' country - but I would put money on that being the same.

[Thailand]

8 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

I was advised by IPC something along the lines of..."You keep the increase for the duration of your stay in the UK whether that is 6 weeks or 6 years; it then reverts on your return to the original frozen amount".

 

Admittedly, I didn't ask about leaving to a different 'frozen' country - but I would put money on that being the same.

Pretty much how I interpreted the response. Could be a potentially huge decrease in income that being the case.

[Tiber]

5 hours ago, Thailand said:

A question I have recently asked the DWP.  

 

A person returning to the UK for a period of time can apply to get the full pension entitlement based on contributions whilst in the UK or a country where agreements apply, mainly the EU.

 

When returning  to the original  country of residence the pension returns to the original "frozen" amount, that I understand.

 

The question I asked the DWP was if a person was to return to the UK for a period of say one year and then go to another country where the "freeze" applies would the pension then be frozen at the rate that was received for the one year in the UK or what. 
This was the answer "your rate will return to the frozen rate applied when you first left the UK."  which was quite a shock and seemed most peculiar but was confirmed by another response from the DWP.

 

Still sounds wrong has anyone gone through this experience?

 

Just to rub it in if you return to the UK and expect to receive health care from the NHS you may well find the applies also-

"People who live outside the EEA, including former UK residents, should now make sure they are covered by personal health insurance, unless an exemption applies to them. Anyone who does not have insurance will be charged at 150% of the NHS national tariff for any care they receive."

 

That's funny, never charged a penny on return, and I've cost them a fortune (still am). They ,docs /hospitals knew I had returned for one purpose

[Tiber]

4 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

I was advised by IPC something along the lines of..."You keep the increase for the duration of your stay in the UK whether that is 6 weeks or 6 years; it then reverts on your return to the original frozen amount".

 

Admittedly, I didn't ask about leaving to a different 'frozen' country - but I would put money on that being the same.

 

Only if it comes direct,(IPC),

 

indirect i.e. UK ,OK, not interested except taxation

[Thailand]

Another question was about not reporting your overseas address and non residence status and still receiving full pension.

And had anyone ever been prosecuted for doing this and if so what was the penalty?

 

This was the response -"We are unable to provide the information you requested but any changes of circumstances must be reported to the Department as per the attached CFN701."

 

Unless anyone knows anything to the contrary it certainly looks like little if any action has ever been taken.

CFN701 10_23.pdf

[HauptmannUK]

Answers to two points raise in this thread....

1. The UK state pension is classed as a benefit. Benefit fraud is committed when you deliberately claim benefits you are not entitled to. E.g. by providing false information or by not reporting a change in circumstance. So if you don't inform DWP you are living overseas then you are definitely committing benefit fraud.  HOWEVER the laws covering benefit fraud (specifically Social Security Administration Act 1992) EXCLUDE the state pension as a 'Sanctionable Benefit'.  This means that if you commit state pension fraud your pension cannot be stopped or reduced.  Your pension will simply be adjusted back to the correct 'frozen' level going forward.  You will not have to pay anything back. Theoretically, if you go back to UK you could face a court case and fine (in the range £250 - £5000) but in practise that is extremely unlikely to happen because the cost of action would be far greater than the fine income and DWP have much bigger fish to fry. Putting 'forgetful' OAPs through court is not something DWP would want to be seen doing.

At the moment I spend just under 180 days per year in Thailand and don't yet receive the state pension anyway. However if I were to relocate to Thailand I WOULD NOT inform DWP since I feel that the freezing of pensions is unjust and immoral. Especially since nationals of any country can enter the UK and claim Pension Credit (up to about the same amount as a full state pension), plus Housing Benefit and a range of other benefits without having ever paid a penny of UK tax or NI.

 

2. On the subject of NHS care.. My daughter is a doctor in a UK hospital.  In general the medical staff are far too busy to worry about eligibility for treatment. If you turn up speaking with a UK accent of some sort and can quote a NI or NHS number then you are unlikely to face a problem.  Obviously don't start talking about your life in Thailand.  The government are pressuring the NHS to get tough with 'overseas patients' so larger hospitals may have an 'Overseas Patient Team' - but they are really looking for foreign passport holders who arrive at a UK airport and take a taxi straight to a local hospital (it happens more often than you think - and these people are often seriously ill).  

Back in 2018 I assisted a sick expat return to the UK.  He arrived immediately at a hospital A&E with about a year's worth of Thai hospital notes. He was immediately admitted and treated, with excellent care.  The Overseas Patient Team did visit him after a few days but his sister was able to show them his UK passport and a rental contract for a bedsit and they were satisfied with that.

Edited February 4 by HauptmannUK

[Chivas]

1 hour ago, HauptmannUK said:

Answers to two points raise in this thread....

1. The UK state pension is classed as a benefit. Benefit fraud is committed when you deliberately claim benefits you are not entitled to. E.g. by providing false information or by not reporting a change in circumstance. So if you don't inform DWP you are living overseas then you are definitely committing benefit fraud.  HOWEVER the laws covering benefit fraud (specifically Social Security Administration Act 1992) EXCLUDE the state pension as a 'Sanctionable Benefit'.  This means that if you commit state pension fraud your pension cannot be stopped or reduced.  Your pension will simply be adjusted back to the correct 'frozen' level going forward.  You will not have to pay anything back. Theoretically, if you go back to UK you could face a court case and fine (in the range £250 - £5000) but in practise that is extremely unlikely to happen because the cost of action would be far greater than the fine income and DWP have much bigger fish to fry. Putting 'forgetful' OAPs through court is not something DWP would want to be seen doing.

At the moment I spend just under 180 days per year in Thailand and don't yet receive the state pension anyway. However if I were to relocate to Thailand I WOULD NOT inform DWP since I feel that the freezing of pensions is unjust and immoral. Especially since nationals of any country can enter the UK and claim Pension Credit (up to about the same amount as a full state pension), plus Housing Benefit and a range of other benefits without having ever paid a penny of UK tax or NI.

 

2. On the subject of NHS care.. My daughter is a doctor in a UK hospital.  In general the medical staff are far too busy to worry about eligibility for treatment. If you turn up speaking with a UK accent of some sort and can quote a NI or NHS number then you are unlikely to face a problem.  Obviously don't start talking about your life in Thailand.  The government are pressuring the NHS to get tough with 'overseas patients' so larger hospitals may have an 'Overseas Patient Team' - but they are really looking for foreign passport holders who arrive at a UK airport and take a taxi straight to a local hospital (it happens more often than you think - and these people are often seriously ill).  

Back in 2018 I assisted a sick expat return to the UK.  He arrived immediately at a hospital A&E with about a year's worth of Thai hospital notes. He was immediately admitted and treated, with excellent care.  The Overseas Patient Team did visit him after a few days but his sister was able to show them his UK passport and a rental contract for a bedsit and they were satisfied with that.

 

Decent fresponse and some excellent points made

[youreavinalaff]

 

4 hours ago, HauptmannUK said:

On the subject of NHS care.. My daughter is a doctor in a UK hospital.  In general the medical staff are far too busy to worry about eligibility for treatment. If you turn up speaking with a UK accent of some sort and can quote a NI or NHS number then you are unlikely to face a problem.  Obviously don't start talking about your life in Thailand.  The government are pressuring the NHS to get tough with 'overseas patients' so larger hospitals may have an 'Overseas Patient Team' - but they are really looking for foreign passport holders who arrive at a UK airport and take a taxi straight to a local hospital (it happens more often than you think - and these people are often seriously ill).  

Back in 2018 I assisted a sick expat return to the UK.  He arrived immediately at a hospital A&E with about a year's worth of Thai hospital notes. He was immediately admitted and treated, with excellent care.  The Overseas Patient Team did visit him after a few days but his sister was able to show them his UK passport and a rental contract for a bedsit and they were satisfied with that.

Accent or nationality matter not.

 

In UK everyone will receive at least emergency attention and treatment.

 

On a trip to UK my wife had an excruciating pain in her ears. It turned out to be a fungal infection. 

 

On arrival at A and E I completed a form for her as a foreign patient. No NI number or NHS number. I wrote details of travel insurance too. 

 

A second visit the following day for further treatment.

 

We only paid for prescription medicine, as we would have done if she were a UK citizen.

 

No claim was made on insurance 

[TorquayFan]

Hauptmann - thanks very much for your post. Very helpful.

 

 

[theoldgit]

You might find useful, those receiving emergency treatment are exempt from the charge, but ongoing treatment is usually chargeable, as the previous poster eluded to Doctors don’t see themselves as tax collectors or Border Force officials, they are far too busy saving lives.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-cost-recovery-overseas-visitors

 

it used to be that expat state pensioners were exempt from NHS charges if taken ill whilst visiting the UK, that was changed during the Cameron/Clegg Coalition.

[Tiber]

Its all OK,give it a few weeks, back to normal

[HauptmannUK]

On 2/4/2024 at 2:40 PM, youreavinalaff said:

 

Accent or nationality matter not.

 

In UK everyone will receive at least emergency attention and treatment.

 

On a trip to UK my wife had an excruciating pain in her ears. It turned out to be a fungal infection. 

 

On arrival at A and E I completed a form for her as a foreign patient. No NI number or NHS number. I wrote details of travel insurance too. 

 

A second visit the following day for further treatment.

 

We only paid for prescription medicine, as we would have done if she were a UK citizen.

 

No claim was made on insurance 

Yes emergency treatment is freely available to anyone presenting themselves to the NHS, even illegal immigrants. My comments were really relating to ongoing non-emergency treatment - if the patient is not 'resident' in the UK then its chargeable.

[Mike Lister]

I don't agree with the DWP response in the op, I think they made that response up to stop people from trying to uprate their pension by returning home and then leaving again. ( rewritten to avoid doubt about what I mean in this sentence)

 

I returned to live in the UK in 2018 and because I was considered to be a returning expatriate who was now fully settled in the UK, my state pension was uprated for the first time in seven years. It took four months for DWP to acknowledge that and I had to get the support of my MP to apply pressure on the then Home Secretary, Amber Rudd. Ms Rudd delegated the issue to a DWP Team who wrote to me and acknowledged my status, by that time I was, to all outward appearances, permanently UK resident again. My objective was to spend 6 months there and 6 months here but covid came along and I was in Thailand when the music stopped.

 

Two years ago I asked DWP to deposit my pension directly to my Thai bank account and this they did, continuing at the new rate. DWP explained that it's not about the number of days a person spends here or there, it's about their permanent and settled lifestyle which can involve spending years overseas and then returning periodically for fairly short periods..

 

[hotandsticky]

On 2/4/2024 at 9:56 AM, HauptmannUK said:

Answers to two points raise in this thread....

1. The UK state pension is classed as a benefit. Benefit fraud is committed when you deliberately claim benefits you are not entitled to. E.g. by providing false information or by not reporting a change in circumstance. So if you don't inform DWP you are living overseas then you are definitely committing benefit fraud.  HOWEVER the laws covering benefit fraud (specifically Social Security Administration Act 1992) EXCLUDE the state pension as a 'Sanctionable Benefit'.  This means that if you commit state pension fraud your pension cannot be stopped or reduced.  Your pension will simply be adjusted back to the correct 'frozen' level going forward.  You will not have to pay anything back. Theoretically, if you go back to UK you could face a court case and fine (in the range £250 - £5000) but in practise that is extremely unlikely to happen because the cost of action would be far greater than the fine income and DWP have much bigger fish to fry. Putting 'forgetful' OAPs through court is not something DWP would want to be seen doing.

At the moment I spend just under 180 days per year in Thailand and don't yet receive the state pension anyway. However if I were to relocate to Thailand I WOULD NOT inform DWP since I feel that the freezing of pensions is unjust and immoral. Especially since nationals of any country can enter the UK and claim Pension Credit (up to about the same amount as a full state pension), plus Housing Benefit and a range of other benefits without having ever paid a penny of UK tax or NI.

 

2. On the subject of NHS care.. My daughter is a doctor in a UK hospital.  In general the medical staff are far too busy to worry about eligibility for treatment. If you turn up speaking with a UK accent of some sort and can quote a NI or NHS number then you are unlikely to face a problem.  Obviously don't start talking about your life in Thailand.  The government are pressuring the NHS to get tough with 'overseas patients' so larger hospitals may have an 'Overseas Patient Team' - but they are really looking for foreign passport holders who arrive at a UK airport and take a taxi straight to a local hospital (it happens more often than you think - and these people are often seriously ill).  

Back in 2018 I assisted a sick expat return to the UK.  He arrived immediately at a hospital A&E with about a year's worth of Thai hospital notes. He was immediately admitted and treated, with excellent care.  The Overseas Patient Team did visit him after a few days but his sister was able to show them his UK passport and a rental contract for a bedsit and they were satisfied with that.

 

 

Excellent points and, with your permission, I would like to copy these comments to interested friends.

 

 

I can actually confirm the second point. I went back to the UK for a hernia operation and my experience was exactly as described. 

[Mike Lister]

Following is a letter I received from DWP regarding my UK residency status, it may help some better understand the DWP position on things:

 

 

I am responding to the email dated X April 2019 to which included the Rt. Hon Amber Rudd MP about your UK residency status.

I should explain that due to the Secretary of State’s wide ranging responsibilities, it is not always possible for her to respond to

every letter personally. In this instance I have been asked to reply.

 

I was sorry to read of your concerns and on receipt of your email I arrange for your UK residency status to be investigated.

 

I can confirm the International Group (IG) does not undertake Statutory Residence Tests (SRT). However, they did write to you

on X December 2018 asking some questions about your residential status in the UK and abroad, this was to establish whether

you are a habitually resident in the UK.

 

As you have spent a significant time abroad we needed to establish whether you are now habitually resident in the UK. I understand

that you returned to the UK on X July 2018, then left for an extended stay in Thailand on X November 2018 . As this was approximately

4 months after returning to the UK and because State Pension (SP) rates can be frozen, depending on the country of residence, IG required

information to establish whether your stay in Thailand was temporary and to confirm that your country of residence is the UK.  

 

 

IG has accepted that you are habitually resident in the UK from X June 2018. Your SP is paid up to X March 2019 at £XX per week,

Increasing to £XX per week from XX April 2019.

 

It may help if I explain that your country of habitual residence is not decided on the number of days spent in a particular country. IG considered your

individual circumstances, taking into account a number of factors such as:

 

• whether you retains a residence and continues to have financial commitments in the UK, when he goes abroad
• is your intention to return to the UK
• did purchase a return ticket
• do you own property abroad and have financial commitments in that country

 

There are other factors which IG will consider when making a habitual residence decision and each decision is based on that customer’s circumstances. 

 

I have asked IG to write to you to confirm they consider your country of residence to be the UK.       

 

In the meantime, should you have any further questions about this matter you can write to, Complaints Resolution Manager, The Pension Service 4,

Mail Handling Site A, Wolverhampton. WV98 1AG or by telephoning 0191 613 8158.

 

Once again thank you for your enquiry, I hope I have clarified the current position.

[youreavinalaff]

3 hours ago, HauptmannUK said:

Yes emergency treatment is freely available to anyone presenting themselves to the NHS, even illegal immigrants. My comments were really relating to ongoing non-emergency treatment - if the patient is not 'resident' in the UK then its chargeable.

If you re read my post, you'll see my wife also had follow up treatment.

 

Illegal immigrants tend not to present themselves to NHS.

[HauptmannUK]

On 2/6/2024 at 1:27 PM, youreavinalaff said:

If you re read my post, you'll see my wife also had follow up treatment.

 

Illegal immigrants tend not to present themselves to NHS.

To be clear, non-emergency treatment IS chargeable for non-residents. Only emergency treatment is free. The reality is that the vast majority of doctors don't have the time or inclination to determine if their patients should be charged or not, so you may well get minor routine treatment free. If its major non-emergency treatment (e.g. a course of radiotherapy, maternity services, a major op) then you will more than likely be checked for eligibility. Having no registered GP would be a red flag.  My daughter worked in Birmingham Heartlands A&E for a time. Its not far from Birmingham Airport and they'd get people arriving straight from the airport still with their luggage, often quite ill (cancer etc) expecting treatment. From places like Nigeria...  Obviously a difficult situation and rather politically sensitive. They also had patients from overseas trying to pass themselves off as a UK-resident relative - but date of birth and medical history would be wrong.

 

And be assured that illegal immigrants DO present themselves for NHS treatment. They walk into GP surgeries and hospitals asking for treatment and they do receive treatment. An issue for doctors (BMA) is whether they become part of UK immigration enforcement. The majority (including my daughter) don't want to get involved.    

[soi3eddie]

Never tell anyone you are emigrating from the UK. You are simply on a long holiday. Retain a UK address, GP registration, Electoral Roll, UK bank account and tax status and you'll be fine. Keep everything updated in the UK. After all, very few are entitled to permanent residency in Thailand. 

[Tiber]

6 hours ago, soi3eddie said:

Never tell anyone you are emigrating from the UK. You are simply on a long holiday. Retain a UK address, GP registration, Electoral Roll, UK bank account and tax status and you'll be fine. Keep everything updated in the UK. After all, very few are entitled to permanent residency in Thailand. 

You will need a UK address for sure ,DWP will write to that address  informing of pension rise, plus UK bank account.The rest not needed, even telling anyone ,let them know, cannot do anything

[TorquayFan]

Tiber, in response to soi3eddie you comment, "The rest not needed'.

 

I profoundly disagree - I think it a good idea to "retain a UK address, GP registration, Electoral Roll, . . . and tax status" in addition to the UK Bank account and the 'never tell' position.

 

For example, retaining GP registration enables continue receiving prescription drugs plus regular health checks during UK visits. IMO keep the whole shebang if you have an address that you can use as a base for this.

 

Better IMO to operate with a margin for error, putting you in the best position for unknowns around the corner ?

 

Good post Eddie . . . !

[kimamey]

On 2/6/2024 at 10:41 AM, Mike Lister said:

Following is a letter I received from DWP regarding my UK residency status, it may help some better understand the DWP position on things:

 

 

I am responding to the email dated X April 2019 to which included the Rt. Hon Amber Rudd MP about your UK residency status.

I should explain that due to the Secretary of State’s wide ranging responsibilities, it is not always possible for her to respond to

every letter personally. In this instance I have been asked to reply.

 

I was sorry to read of your concerns and on receipt of your email I arrange for your UK residency status to be investigated.

 

I can confirm the International Group (IG) does not undertake Statutory Residence Tests (SRT). However, they did write to you

on X December 2018 asking some questions about your residential status in the UK and abroad, this was to establish whether

you are a habitually resident in the UK.

 

As you have spent a significant time abroad we needed to establish whether you are now habitually resident in the UK. I understand

that you returned to the UK on X July 2018, then left for an extended stay in Thailand on X November 2018 . As this was approximately

4 months after returning to the UK and because State Pension (SP) rates can be frozen, depending on the country of residence, IG required

information to establish whether your stay in Thailand was temporary and to confirm that your country of residence is the UK.  

 

 

IG has accepted that you are habitually resident in the UK from X June 2018. Your SP is paid up to X March 2019 at £XX per week,

Increasing to £XX per week from XX April 2019.

 

It may help if I explain that your country of habitual residence is not decided on the number of days spent in a particular country. IG considered your

individual circumstances, taking into account a number of factors such as:

 

• whether you retains a residence and continues to have financial commitments in the UK, when he goes abroad
• is your intention to return to the UK
• did purchase a return ticket
• do you own property abroad and have financial commitments in that country

 

There are other factors which IG will consider when making a habitual residence decision and each decision is based on that customer’s circumstances. 

 

I have asked IG to write to you to confirm they consider your country of residence to be the UK.       

 

In the meantime, should you have any further questions about this matter you can write to, Complaints Resolution Manager, The Pension Service 4,

Mail Handling Site A, Wolverhampton. WV98 1AG or by telephoning 0191 613 8158.

 

Once again thank you for your enquiry, I hope I have clarified the current position.

It's very complicated isn't it.

 

I was always in the UK for around 6 months and stayed with my mother, and worked for some all all of that time. I was in the UK from September 2020 due to Covid and then, because there were so many things to think about, including helping my elderly mother buy a new flat, which is 1 bedroom so I can no longer stay there, I made the mistake of flying back to Thailand in early March 2022 which meant I missed the increase. I tried finding information about this on the DWP website but I couldn't find anything. 

 

I used the International Pension Centre online enquiry service, twice with no reply. I phoned IPC and they told me to phone DWP, who told me to phone IPC. I asked them where I could find the appropriate information online and I was told "It'll be on Gov.uk somewhere". The guy did say that being back in the UK for more than 6 months would reset things but that's not the only way they work things out, as you say. I can't find the letter they sent me, but I know it mentioned the points you refer to and some others. Oddly some of the items, such as return flights, they never asked me about. I don't own a residence in the UK as I can't afford it right now, particularly in the south where my family are. I do have a flat that I rent out. I could kick out the tenant and live there but he's been there 8 years and he's no trouble so I just couldn't do that. I have a mother (96 this year) 2 adult children and 2 granddaughters. I've got a car, although that might have to go as it's becoming difficult to get it looked after whilst I'm away. I've got rented storage for things I'll need if and when I can move back. That might be difficult as I'm not sure I could afford to take my wife.