Scottish woman’s cliff plunge in Thailand sparks insurance debacle

[Liverpool Lou]

17 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

But we can be pretty sure that no policy covers a non licensed person on a motorcycle...  the ambiguity obviously involves the word 'scooter'...  and if the policy even includes the word scooter.

Absolutely.  And, more generally, no policies will cover any illegal activities, that would include riding motorbikes unlicenced, without a helmet, being intoxicated, etc.  The only ambiguity in this case is the nurse's.

Edited February 5 by Liverpool Lou

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, Liverpool Lou said:

"Hahaha... LL - thats quite ridiculous... Call the insurer to have a discussion to covering every eventuality"

From your own link...

"Things to do after you buy this policy
Read it! Cover to cover. Yes, all of it. No surprises or assumptions. Ask World Nomads if you don’t understand what it means".

 

"I suspect you actually work in insurance...".

I do comment rationally about insurance because I did work in an insurance company and also had my own brokerage, hence, I do know what I'm talking about as opposed to all those throwing around false assertions about insurers and how they operate.

 

Yup.. that does make a lot of sense given your knowledge of insurance.

 

BUT.. as a customer who has also been stung...  when digging into detail, I can often see the possible wiggle room.

 

The example I gave about finding out if my health insurance covered me for skiing was just one example...  

 

I received numerous vague replies to my repeated e-mails for 'specific clarification' to a very simple question... 'Does this Policy cover my medical costs if I am injured while skiing'...   

 

... the replies were vague and mentioned the Policy does not cover dangerous activities..... 

The question wasn't answered...  Does skiing fall within the underwriters description of 'dangerous activities'... ?

 

We went round in circles for a couple of months until finally I received...

 

'The Policy covers the cost of medical treatment for injures incurred while on piste skiing or off-piste skiing with a qualified guide'...  (or wording to that effect).

 

It was only then that I felt comfortable that my Health Insurance would cover medical costs for injuries if I became injured on the slopes... Since then I've taken out separate insurance that covers skiing comes recommend on skiing forums. 

 

I'm not sure if my latest Health Insurance (cygna) covers skiing...  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

3 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Absolutely.  And, more generally, no policies will cover any illegal activities, that would include riding motorbikes unlicenced, without a helmet, being intoxicated, etc.  The only ambiguity in this case is the nurse's.

 

The being 'intoxicated' clause is one which I really object to... 

 

Alcohol misuse; you drinking too much alcohol where it is

reasonable in the circumstances to expect that such consumption

could result in an impairment to your health, impairment of your

faculties and/or seriously affect your judgment or exacerbates

another medical condition. We do not expect you to avoid drinking

alcohol on your trip but we will not cover any claims arising

because you have drunk so much alcohol that your judgement is

seriously affected and you need to make a claim as a result.

 

 

Any time I drink my judgement is 'affected' often seriously !!!...    thats kind of the point in drinking sometimes, to wind down.. 

 

So... misjudging a step while drunk and breaking a hip ??? that seems pretty serious and judgement was 'seriously' affected... it is such 'wiggle room' that I'm quite uncomfortable with in policies.

 

How exactly do they judge 'seriously affected' ????   

[Umlungu]

8 hours ago, retarius said:

It would be nice if they had a native English speaker review the copy before they post it. 

It was written by Bob Scott from Newcastle.

[Umlungu]

6 hours ago, n00dle said:

the story is credited to Bob Scott from Newcastle:
Bob Scott

Bob Scott is an experienced writer and editor with a passion for travel. Born and raised in Newcastle, England, he spent more than 10 years in Asia. He worked as a sports writer in the north of England and London before relocating to Asia. Now he resides in Bangkok, Thailand, where he is the Editor-in-Chief for The Thaiger English News. With a vast amount of experience from living and writing abroad, Bob Scott is an expert on all things related to Asian culture and lifestyle.

Bob Scott writing about a Scot.

Most likely a brickie and gofer stopping over for some Sex in the City.

[ericthai]

8 hours ago, JackGats said:

I don't have any travel insurance. I live in TH and I have world-wide coverage (Cigna). Whenever I file a refund claim there a box to tick regarding whether the claim is because of an accident or not. Up to now I never had to tick the box.

 

A friend said he had once a light motorbike accident but he lied about it. He reported instead having fallen somewhere. 

 

So if I rent a motorbike a good move is to see to it that it doesn't exceed 125cc?

you need to check the fine print on your insurance policy.

[Liverpool Lou]

5 hours ago, madmitch said:

I draft, read and review insurance policies for a living. So many out of date comments on here.

 

We don't know the circumstances of the accident so I can't comment on the claim but it should only be denied if she rode the bike over the cliff. If she got off the bike then the riding of the bike is not a contributory factor.

 

The UK has introduced consumer duty legislation, which means financial documents must now be drafted in a manner that is understandable by individuals buying them. If a claim is denied and the language is over-complicate, the client is permitted to make a formal complaint and this can end up with the insurance ombudsman. The onbudsman can force insurers to pay.

 

I'd like to see the 117 page travel policy as this would not comply with current legislation, unless it's not a UK policy. The Scottish girl involved in the accident obviously would have a UK policy and I would be happy to take a look to see if she is eligible to complain.

 

NB Insurance companies hate these complaints as it causes a lot of internal administration.

 

Expecting a feww LOL emojis but, believe me, the above is true, and I have spent hours adapting wordings to comply.

Well said.  That "117-page policy" clearly wasn't an actual issued policy, no regulated insurers would dare produce a 117-page travel insurance policy and/or policy conditions.  That company is an Authorised Representative of an Australian public company selling policies underwritten in Australia and New Zealand by Pacific International Insurance Pty Ltd but with offices in Europe, UK, US et al and various other reputable, regulated underwriters.

Edited February 5 by Liverpool Lou

[Liverpool Lou]

5 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Seem's they're based in Ireland (+353 country dialling code)

 

Attached - the 117 page policy wording.

 

This is a policy I am carrying for an 11 day trip (coming up).

 

 

 

6.1) Travel Insurance Policy Wording.pdf 585.28 kB · 1 download

That's just part of their web page providing information, it is not a policy with 117 pages, nor is it a copy of your own policy's conditions although some of them will be specific to your policy.

Edited February 5 by Liverpool Lou

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, ericthai said:

you need to check the fine print on your insurance policy.

"you need to check the fine print on your insurance policy".  There is no "fine print".

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

That's just part of their web page providing information, it is not a policy with 117 pages, nor is it a copy of your own policy's conditions.

 

There are two documents issued...

- The Policy certificate

- The Policy wording (which you have seen).

 

It seems you think the Policy Wording is not valid, its strange the extent you'll go to counter peoples criticism of insurance companies...  I've shown you a 117 page policy wording from a Policy I am holding and you still wont accept it.

 

 

[richard_smith237]

3 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

"you need to check the fine print on your insurance policy".  There is no "fine print".

 

You argue this all the time... And you know exactly what is meant...

 

'Fine print' is a very common colloquialism used for the detailed terms and conditions and policy wording...    but you know that already.... 

 

 

[Liverpool Lou]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

I've shown you a 117 page policy wording from a Policy I am holding and you still wont accept it.

It's general information that can apply to everyone who has a policy and those who don't, I got it when I went to their site and I do not have a policy, it does not refer to the specifics of your cover.

[richard_smith237]

Just now, Liverpool Lou said:

It's general information that can apply to everyone who has a policy and those who don't, I got it when I went to their site and I do not have a policy, it does not refer to the specifics of your cover.

 

Are you implying that the Policy wording has no relevance ?

 

There is a Certificate of Cover - that also applies to the 'specifics' of my cover...   

 

 

I'm not sure what point you are attempting to make now - its as if you are questioning if the insurance cover is valid.

[Liverpool Lou]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

6 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

"you need to check the fine print on your insurance policy".  There is no "fine print".

 

You argue this all the time... And you know exactly what is meant...

 

'Fine print' is a very common colloquialism used for the detailed terms and conditions and policy wording...    but you know that already.... 

Yes, of course I know what that figure of speech means but it is also used deliberately by irrational insurance company haters who just want to disparage the industry by suggesting that there actually are conditions in fine print. 

[Liverpool Lou]

Just now, richard_smith237 said:

4 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

It's general information that can apply to everyone who has a policy and those who don't, I got it when I went to their site and I do not have a policy, it does not refer to the specifics of your cover.

 

Are you implying that the Policy wording has no relevance ?

No...I did not post that.

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Yes, of course I know what that figure of speech means but it is also used deliberately by irrational insurance company haters who just want to disparage the industry by suggesting that there actually are conditions in fine print. 

 

Perhaps if the Policy wording I have with my policy were in small print it would only be 60 pages !

 

 

[Liverpool Lou]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

I'm not sure what point you are attempting to make now - its as if you are questioning if the insurance cover is valid.

I made no such suggestion.  I did post that you do not have a 117-page policy document.

[BenStark]

15 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

It seems you think the Policy Wording is not valid, its strange the extent you'll go to counter peoples criticism of insurance companies...  I've shown you a 117 page policy wording from a Policy I am holding and you still wont accept it.

 

Your favorite reply to others on this forum.

 

  if we have to explain it to you, that mean you will never get it

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, BenStark said:

 

Your favorite reply to others on this forum.

 

  if we have to explain it to you, that mean you will never get it

 

Nice try, but if you place a kettle and 117 page Policy Wording document in the same context then there are a world of things you'll never get... 

 

.. Now run back to your pathetic kettle thread... the adults are talking.

[richard_smith237]

11 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

I made no such suggestion.  I did post that you do not have a 117-page policy document.

 

Fair enough...  its clear I do not know the difference between Policy Wording (as provided to me along with my Certificate of Cover) and the actual Policy itself, as it relates directly to me (and my family).

 

Is the Policy Wording (the 117 page document) in conjunction with the Policy Document - not the 'Policy' itself and all that it covers (or excludes ?)... 

 

OR.. will there be a legally signed document somewhere with the Actual Policy itself ?

 

i.e. IF for some reason a claim were to be refused, what document would I check to fall back on ???  Would that not be the Policy Wording Document issued to me ???

 

 

As BenStark mentioned above....  'if it has to be explained to me, I won't get it' ...  Well, clearly it does need to be explained to me and this is something I and perhaps many others need to understand, it seems you are the right guy LL to explain it. 

 

 

 

[BenStark]

11 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Nice try, but if you place a kettle and 117 page Policy Wording document in the same context then there are a world of things you'll never get... 

 

.. Now run back to your pathetic kettle thread... the adults are talking.

 

Obviously you don't even get it that it isn't even a policy, and I hope with adults you don't mean yourself

Edited February 5 by BenStark

[save the frogs]

11 hours ago, connda said:

Word of caution to any tourist visiting Thailand.

If you don't have experience driving motorcycles back home, don't rent one here.

If you do have experience driving motorcycles back home, turn your defensive-driving dial to 11.  (For those who don't understand that, watch Spinal Tap).  And have a policy that covers motorcycle accidents.

 

not everyone reads forums before traveling. 

 

[uttradit]

11 hours ago, petermik said:

Renting scooters/motorbikes anywhere is a death wish to Insurance policies....will folk never learn?

Why would they? 

[sabai-dee-man]

12 hours ago, retarius said:

It would be nice if they had a native English speaker review the copy before they post it. 

The forum may want a native English speaker to review the post you quoted too!

[Nordic summer]

It's the biggest relieve to see the lady made it back home in one piece. I'm very happy about this.

It must have been her good karma that made it so that she met up with this other person during scuba class, who really seems to have been of great assistanse. Imagine going through all that alone in a foreign country. Kudos to her

And also this Doctor was an angel. Wish her lots of happiness.

 

I bet this accident happened on the way to the lighthouse located on the south tip of the island. It has lots of corner pluss up and downs and at relatively high elevation, with plenty of cliffs to fall off from.

When I was there in the shoulder season once, there were hardly any traffic there, so it kinda invites sporty driving(not that I suspects that was the case in this accident). The road is a little treacherous tho, as it is commonly soiled with debris and mud after windy rain,

I nearly went ass out myself when rear tire slipped out from under me once

 

I have been driving big bikes at home for years and while I am a quite confident driver, riding scooters in Thailand has been an humbling experience

Scooters do not have the same traction as a big bike(with adequate tires off course) and surprises comes from nowhere and everywhere. Also road being what they are down here.

I have therefore adapted a much more defensive riding style down here.

I scares me out of <deleted> to see some of the other tourists buzz along in singlet, caps and slippers, not to mention some of the locals(although Koh Lanta locals are quite considerate compared to BKK and CM)

 

When it comes to insurance, I choose a company located in my homeland. I wrote several of them describing where, what and how I planned to use scooters. 

What the big companies say, is that as long as you have a bike license(pluss international), wear a helmet and are sober, they cover any material or injury damage. That includes myself being a passenger on a moto taxi. This costs me about $60 a year.

It looks like the big bummer in this case was the size of the scooter, so I strongly advice everyone unlicensed to check out what limitations this put on your insurance before renting a scooter.

 

Hope the Scottish lady get back on her feets soon both physically and economically, and visit lanta again soon

[Steve80]

She would have needed a full UK Motorcycle Driving License to drive any scooter or motorbike regardless of engine size. The CBT license is not covered on the International Driving Permit, if she had one of those.

[Paris333]

The usual tricks of insurance companies that while you are insured, when the moment comes to cover you for a serious or insignificant injury ..... they leave you uncovered............Nobody wants to admit the obvious.

Foreign western Embassies are responsible for such unacceptable and horrible situation in which European citizens are uncovered in Asia.The Embassies should be contracted with the Hospitals in Bangkok and Phuket for the treatment of Western tourists to avoid getting involved in insurance and medical mafia.

"I was admitted to Intensive Care Unit for days then had an email from my insurance saying they rejected my claim due to the scooter I hired being classed as a motorbike".Nobody wants to admit the obvious...........

The lady nurse spend a lot of money to come to Thailand furthermore she didnt want to be injured badly in an accident .

Whats the task of foreign western Embassies in beautiful Thailand?

Μerchant rice and noodles or hard disks imports to European territory?

The shame on you Europeans officials in Thailand and in June European States run for elections in Europe Parliament!

C.o.n.g.r.a.t.u.l.a.t.i.o.n.s!

 

 

 

[Nordic summer]

1 hour ago, Steve80 said:

She would have needed a full UK Motorcycle Driving License to drive any scooter or motorbike regardless of engine size. The CBT license is not covered on the International Driving Permit, if she had one of those.

That is odd, as my own intl driving license issued in Norway has an A1 coverage, A1 being up to 125cc for 16 yo's.

 

 

That literally means the majority of Brits(and who knows who else) are driving around practically uninsured while on holiday

I mean, they could ride around on 50cc's, but I think that's unlikely.

 

 

Edited February 5 by Nordic summer

[scubascuba3]

10 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

. I didn’t even know the engine size when I hired it.”

UK travel insurance policies are very clear in black and white, sounds like it covered 125cc as that is the standard when riding a motorcycle is covered, the engine size she rented was higher hence claim denied, quite clear to me.

 

Ignorance is not an excuse, she should have skim read the policy doc then checked the bike cc

Edited February 5 by scubascuba3

[tandor]

19 hours ago, KannikaP said:

Does this not suggest that she died?

wouldn't you think they would use AI to proof read before posting.