Expat Tax Twists in Thailand: Navigating the New Landscape in 2024

[UKresonant]

On 2/12/2024 at 5:46 AM, puck2 said:

Concerning my last comment, what will they do, if I transfer only a part of my "earnings" abroad to Thailand. Do they, the RD's, reduce the full tax I payed in my home country or only the proportionate part??? If YES, they would not respect my "homeland allowences".

Pretty sure that your homeland allowances are not relevant at all in relation to Thai RD. Except in context to that they have reportadley said if your pensions are taxed in your home country, it's OK.

Though the resultant overseas pension and tax could be affected by homeland allowances. But I would not initiate such a question to Thai RD, with any expectations. 

 

On the proportioning aspect, there was a link in another Thread, that suggested when the applicant, that wished a 'certificate of residence' at the Thai end for use to reclaim / get relief at home country end, they wanted a global income listing to ensure there was no doubling of allowances. But still absolutely only taxed on money remitted to Thailand. No worked examples, so unable to grasp anything of the computation in that example.

 

All kinda circumstantial, and it was a very specific individual scenario noted.

 

 

[Misty]

3 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

I think so, in the definition of unearned income and the composition of the 250000 USD investment for those who don't meet the pension requirement. But can't say anything for sure as I don't have the first hand experience having gotten the visa on the base of my pension only.

 

I think @Misty , @Pib or @oldcpu could be more helpful.

 

I haven't had a wealthy pensioner visa before, but maybe @Pib or @oldcpu can help

[oldcpu]

6 hours ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

Is there any room for negotiation when it comes to obtaining a ('wealthy pensioner') LTR visa?

My meeting the requirements for LTR visa was a bit complicated, as I have a number of relatively small pensions from different sources, which all together, when added up, exceeded the $40K US equivalent/year. 

 

So in addition to showing proof of the $40K US equivalent/year, I had to show I met the $250K US equivalent investment in Thailand which I did by a combination of 1/2 of my condo purchase price (with proof of that), and by a 2-million THB purchase in Thai government bonds.

 

Proving the $40K US$ (because my income comes from multiple sources) was a bit completed, in part because of me.  I didn't want to use my German pension, as that required me to translate the proof of that into English language.  But my European organisation pension alone was adequate proof - except BoI wanted to see that on a tax return. 

 

So as noted, BoI wanted me to give them a tax return proving my income.  The German government had already told me to stop submitting a tax return (as my German pension too small for them to be bothered, and my European organisation pension not taxable in Germany if I resided in Thailand), so I ended up submitting to BoI copy of my Canadian tax return, which lists the sum of all my Global income.  In that I had my Canadian Old Age Security + European pension listed, which together easily exceeded the $40K US$ equivalent income. 

 

But for reasons I can't understand, BoI asked me to provide the tax form for my Canadian Pension, which at that time I did not yet receive such a pension (as I deferred my Canadian pension to age 70 and I was not yet age 70).  I already exceeded the $40K per year (without a Canadian pension), so I had to go back to BoI, explain I did not receive (nor did I need) the Canadian Pension to meet their requirements. They then accepted that explanation (as I exceeded the $40K US equiv without such a pension). 

 

After that the income aspect was satisfied (but ONLY AFTER I had proof of such with an updated Canadian tax return), but I then had fun proving the Self Health Insurance to BoI (as my superior European Insurance was not accepted as it was not in a format that BoI wanted to dig through).  It took me a few attempts to show an account with $100K US for self insurance, as the 1st two accounts I showed BoI also had the capability to be used as a 'trading account' which BoI would not accept.  BoI would not accept a trading account for self health insurance.    In the end I provided proof of a Foreign Exchange account I had with the perquisite amount for self health insurance present for over a year, and with that I finally obtained approval from BoI. 

 

In the end it all worked out. 

 

The best part for me, was most of which I had to do was from my condo balcony, with feet up, using my laptop computer, sipping a drink, and enjoying a fabulous sea view, ... as I uploaded the prerequisite documents.

[Presnock]

On 2/11/2024 at 3:27 PM, Presnock said:

if you qualify, an Long term resident visa (LTR) might alleviate many of your complaints about how immigration affects you.

 

 

[CharlesHolzhauer]

On 2/11/2024 at 6:51 PM, Mike Lister said:

By threshold I believe he refers to 20 million baht! That's the threshold for the gift tax rule.

This is crystal clear! But would his wife, as the recipient of the gift, report this to the RD via a tax return form?

[Mike Lister]

36 minutes ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

This is crystal clear! But would his wife, as the recipient of the gift, report this to the RD via a tax return form?

As already said elsewhere, we're still seeking clarification on any tax liability for either party.

[CharlesHolzhauer]

On 2/11/2024 at 6:50 PM, Mike Lister said:

The basic principle is that everyone pays tax somewhere so as long as you've done that and you try to import funds into Thailand where tax has already been paid  in the home country, Thailand is unlikely to make any  further tax demand on you. That said, there will almost certainly be examples where the difference in the tax rates between the two countries, COULD lead to additional tax being due here but for the most part, those will be anomalies. 

Any thoughts on this?

a) The Australian government actively encourages 'self-funding retirees,' referring to individuals who are financially independent and do not rely on government support for their retirement. These retirees can invest their accumulated wealth in an 'Account-Based Pension,' where pension payments must be withdrawn at a minimum rate as determined by the government annually. These pension payments are tax-free. Due to the freedom of movement, individuals can relocate and retire in Thailand without losing the benefits provided in an 'Account-Based Pension' environment.

b) An Australian individual has the legal option to liquidate their entire stock portfolio, submit a final tax return to the Australian Tax Office (ATO), fulfill necessary tax payments, and subsequently repurchase the same or other investment products. Following this process, the individual can relocate to a country such as Thailand and rely on the distributions/dividends generated by their investments for their cost of living. The individual, being a non-resident of Australia for tax purposes, benefits from automatically deducted withholding taxes. Should the individual choose to make significant purchases, such as a condo or car, and decide to sell units or shares to cover such expenditures, it would not trigger a taxable event, as they are considered a non-resident for tax purposes. All these actions are within the bounds of the law.

Do Australian individuals residing in Thailand who legally do not pay taxes in Australia face any repercussions from the Thai RD?

[Dogmatix]

Re gift tax. This RD case from Feb 2023 may be of interest to anyone thinking of using gift tax exemptions to remit funds to a spouse https://www.rd.go.th/64926.html. I have saved and attached the Google translation which is quite readable  The is actually designed to clarify that remittances to an unmarried partner or common law spouse are not exempted from gift tax (or may be in certain circumstances).  In the process of clarifying this, the case write up makes clear that, if the foreign man and his Thai spouse had been legally married that the remittances to from overseas from human to wife would have been exempt from gift tax up to 20 million in one tax year.  

 

I know some people were looking for confirmation that the gift tax exemption up to 20M p.a. for spouses applied to transfers from abroad from foreigners.  Of course there is nothing in the wording of the Gift Tax Royal Decree about nationality of giftors or provenance of gifts but it is nice to have this actually confirmed by the RD itself. '

 

I think it is worth putting as the comment on the remittance instructions "Gift to spouse".  A simple agreement between spouses acknowledging the giving and receiving of a gift might be worthwhile, perhaps drawing on the wording of the definition of an irrecoverable gift. It might be OK to only draft this, in the event of an RD inspection but it is not too much trouble to draw up, just like a simple receipt. 

 

Whether some or all of this money comes back to the giftor is a grey area.  It could be argued by the RD that any part of the gift that is returned to the giftor makes the original gift not an irrevocable gift under the Civil & Commercial Code, so that it should be subject to income tax retroactively.  However, this is complicated by the fact that under the Civil & Commercial Code all assets acquired by either spouse after marriage are considered joint conjugal property. There is also no specific prohibition on the recipient spouse making another gift of some of the cash to her spouse later.  She could, for example, use the gift to buy some property and later gift some or all of the proceeds to her spouse.  If it were profit on the sale, it would be new money as well. Basically the spousal exemption on gift tax is at variance with the concept of joint spousal property and spouses may be allowed to shuffle cash between each other freely as long neither receives more than 20 million per year.

 

Most likely the gift tax loophole with come under attack sooner or later, since, along with inheritance tax it has raised very little revenue.  Srettha cited this as a cause for concern when he took office, although he seems to have delegated the finance ministry to his deputy, while he goes on never ending roadshows.  Even though the Prayut government claimed inheritance and tax levels were only intended to be "symbolic", it is easy to see how the original low levels could turn out to be just the thin end of the wedge, as thresholds get ramped down and tax rates ramp up.

 

 

Gift Tax Case RD KK0702-530 11 Feb 2023.docx

[topt]

14 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

 The is actually designed to clarify that remittances to an unmarried partner or common law spouse are not exempted from gift tax (or may be in certain circumstances).  In the process of clarifying this, the case write up makes clear that, if the foreign man and his Thai spouse had been legally married that the remittances to from overseas from human to wife would have been exempt from gift tax up to 20 million in one tax year.  

Respectfully does not the last paragraph actually say that the specific example meets the criteria of Section 42(28) which is up to 10m baht for non spouses (or is that what you meant by certain circumstances)?

 

[Kalasin Jo]

On 2/11/2024 at 3:33 PM, Mike Lister said:

Do not confuse use of the word "income", as in payment received for something, with, "income", as in funds received from overseas.

Well Mike I guess that is the issue. I'm not an accountant, let alone a tax expert here or anywhere else. How do the Thai RD define "income" then? Is it any  (all) money sent to Thailand from overseas in their tax year regardless of source overseas?. That could include the sale proceeds of a capital item such as a house, a car, jewellery, watch etc etc remitted here as cash. What of the sum required to be in a Thai bank remitted from abroad and/or topped up from abroad for extensions of visas?

 

Am I being a pain ? Sorry if I am. I do hope absolutely clear guidance will be forthcoming from the Thai RD. Wishful thinking may be? Lost in translation may be, or simply the whim of your local office(er) as often with the Immigration regs? Some years back my local RD office were totally uninterested implying I should go away and stop making waves! So I did. Why did I even try? Well, it was based on my experience in France where I was resident for many years. There there is a legal obligation on you to register and make tax declarations if in country more than 180 days. Naively I thought it would be the same here

 

There are some, and I am one, that think that if the Thai government are going to regard retirees living 180 days or more here on foreign pensions and nothing else as tax resident, requiring annual tax declarations and potentially tax bills they should extend to them the same rights as Thai taxpayers and not regard us as long staying visitors/tourists with no rights. That should mean giving access to the thai state healthcare and welfare system, remove us from the dual pricing they apply to foreigners, give us a route to permanent resident immigration status, ending the forever annual extensions and reporting requirements when that is achieved ( 5 years of residency seems sensible and is used by other countries).

Or of course the government could simply maintain the status quo and exempt those with retirement visas /extensions.

Or we could spend less than 180 days a year here but for those with spouses and families here that is not necessarily realistic.

I do hope this "curve ball" and the alarm it has caused some foreign retirees  ( others just don't believe it), often supporting Thai  spouses and Thai families on their modest pensions, and the quid pro quo issues I raise are being drawn to the attention of those in power here by some with more clout than little old me! As far as I can see the Embassies have been silent.

Cheers!

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, Kalasin Jo said:

Well Mike I guess that is the issue. I'm not an accountant, let alone a tax expert here or anywhere else. How do the Thai RD define "income" then? Is it any  (all) money sent to Thailand from overseas in their tax year regardless of source overseas?. That could include the sale proceeds of a capital item such as a house, a car, jewellery, watch etc etc remitted here as cash. What of the sum required to be in a Thai bank remitted from abroad and/or topped up from abroad for extensions of visas?

 

Am I being a pain ? Sorry if I am. I do hope absolutely clear guidance will be forthcoming from the Thai RD. Wishful thinking may be? Lost in translation may be, or simply the whim of your local office(er) as often with the Immigration regs? Some years back my local RD office were totally uninterested implying I should go away and stop making waves! So I did. Why did I even try? Well, it was based on my experience in France where I was resident for many years. There there is a legal obligation on you to register and make tax declarations if in country more than 180 days. Naively I thought it would be the same here

 

There are some, and I am one, that think that if the Thai government are going to regard retirees living 180 days or more here on foreign pensions and nothing else as tax resident, requiring annual tax declarations and potentially tax bills they should extend to them the same rights as Thai taxpayers and not regard us as long staying visitors/tourists with no rights. That should mean giving access to the thai state healthcare and welfare system, remove us from the dual pricing they apply to foreigners, give us a route to permanent resident immigration status, ending the forever annual extensions and reporting requirements when that is achieved ( 5 years of residency seems sensible and is used by other countries).

Or of course the government could simply maintain the status quo and exempt those with retirement visas /extensions.

Or we could spend less than 180 days a year here but for those with spouses and families here that is not necessarily realistic.

I do hope this "curve ball" and the alarm it has caused some foreign retirees  ( others just don't believe it), often supporting Thai  spouses and Thai families on their modest pensions, and the quid pro quo issues I raise are being drawn to the attention of those in power here by some with more clout than little old me! As far as I can see the Embassies have been silent.

Cheers!

Section 2.1 of the following link defines assessible income, as far as the Thai Revenue jargon goes.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html

 

If I can try to put it in simpler terms:

 

As far as YOU and the Thai Revenue are concerned, your assessible income is any money you remit to Thailand, minus excluded income and minus anything specifically excluded by the DTA or Thai Revenue rules. Excluded income includes anything earned before 1 January 2024. And, any income that has already been taxed in the home country, before it is remitted to Thailand, can use the tax already paid to offset any tax liability in Thailand, potentially to zero.

 

If you sell your overseas property and the sale proceeds are taxed in the home country, the proceeds SHOULD BE free of Thai tax. If your property sale is subject to tax in the home country, it almost certainly will be free of Thai tax.

 

If you buy a watch and bring it to Thailand, you're over thinking things!

 

No, paying Thai Income Tax does not infer the right to Thai Social Security benefits.

 

That's not a complete picture by any means but I hope it's a useful snapshot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JimGant]

43 minutes ago, Kalasin Jo said:

What of the sum required to be in a Thai bank remitted from abroad and/or topped up from abroad for extensions of visas?

 

What of it? I wire funds from a savings account originally funded 11 years ago, and containing more than enough for any future wires to Thailand. My Wise wires to Thailand go from this fund, thus it's all from pre 2024 income, and thus exempt from Thai taxation. But, if I put my Air Force retirement checks and Social Security checks into a new checking account -- and Wise transfer from that? Again, it's all tax exempt per the DTA. But if that account also had private pension deposits (taxable by Thailand, via the DTA) -- then I'd just say that all remittances from this checking account first came from Air Force pensions and Social  Security. Any overage, then, would then tap into that private pension, and thus I would be in the accounting situation of saying that this overage is, yes, assessable (taxable) income for Thai tax purposes. As of right now, I'm in the driver's seat for accounting what monies are from what tranches in the financial accounts from which I wire money to Thailand from. The Thai tax folks are in no position to question the complexion of your remitted income -- that's necessarily up to you, if and when any such income becomes subject to a Thai tax return.

[Kalasin Jo]

26 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

That's not a complete picture by any means but I hope it's a useful snapshot.

 

It is thank you very much. So the simple answer is that income  is perhaps the wrong word and the right one is "money ' remitted to Thailand from overseas, with some specific exceptions. Lost in translation 555.

 

The Thai RD document is in perfect English but appears quite old, 2014? I guess though that nothing has changed since then?

 

On the face of it it seems I will be paying "income" tax here for 2024 (and beyond) even taking in to account the allowances the RD document  identifies. That is if I stay here beyond June 28th (?) 2024. If I leave shortly before that date I should not return until January 2025 to avoid taxation here altogether. That would be costly  and would also end my extensions and I would have to start all over again. Something to bear in mind.

 

I haven't yet tried to work out how much tax I would be paying but any tax payable will diminish our modest lifestyle. The UK/Thailand DTA is of no help to me as it only covers UK government pensions which are always taxed in the UK and paid net. The State Pension is paid gross, private pensions are subject to PAYE.

 

Leaving before the 180 day deadline would mean abandoning my wife ( at least we have no children) and some members of her family, who I have supported financially and in kind these last 11 years, for least for 6 months or perhaps permanently. Oh dear. It was bad enough during the Covid years when we were separated for over 12 months. Now I am my wife's carer and the other family members I support are not in good health relying on me for transport to hospital appointments and in emergencies. As my handle on here implies we live 30km out from Kalasin. Very rural.

 

I wasn't (over) thinking on the watches. I just meant that as an example of realising cash then remitting that cash to Thailand.

 

Also, I did not mean that being a taxpayer entitles one to benefits such as healthcare or social security. It may I understand if you are a foreigner and an employee here. I was saying that being treated as tax resident should do so.

Basically, that Thailand should be addressing this if it is taxing us and also the impermanent immigration status of forever annual applications for permission to stay for 1 year and meeting the requirements each time. This is treating us as visitors not residents, even if we have spouses and families here? As a visitor why should we pay taxes here. I appreciate  that they are not the same, but they aren't in step nor have the potential to be.

Although  British I was able to obtain permanent residency status in France after 5 years living there AS A TAXPAYER. Even as a "temporary" resident after my first 6 months I was registered in their state healthcare system. It was obligatory, although means assessed for contributions. Thailand could and should do the same for its immigrant tax paying residents.

cheers.

[Mike Lister]

31 minutes ago, Kalasin Jo said:

It is thank you very much. So the simple answer is that income  is perhaps the wrong word and the right one is "money ' remitted to Thailand from overseas, with some specific exceptions. Lost in translation 555.

 

The Thai RD document is in perfect English but appears quite old, 2014? I guess though that nothing has changed since then?

 

On the face of it it seems I will be paying "income" tax here for 2024 (and beyond) even taking in to account the allowances the RD document  identifies. That is if I stay here beyond June 28th (?) 2024. If I leave shortly before that date I should not return until January 2025 to avoid taxation here altogether. That would be costly  and would also end my extensions and I would have to start all over again. Something to bear in mind.

 

I haven't yet tried to work out how much tax I would be paying but any tax payable will diminish our modest lifestyle. The UK/Thailand DTA is of no help to me as it only covers UK government pensions which are always taxed in the UK and paid net. The State Pension is paid gross, private pensions are subject to PAYE.

 

Leaving before the 180 day deadline would mean abandoning my wife ( at least we have no children) and some members of her family, who I have supported financially and in kind these last 11 years, for least for 6 months or perhaps permanently. Oh dear. It was bad enough during the Covid years when we were separated for over 12 months. Now I am my wife's carer and the other family members I support are not in good health relying on me for transport to hospital appointments and in emergencies. As my handle on here implies we live 30km out from Kalasin. Very rural.

 

I wasn't (over) thinking on the watches. I just meant that as an example of realising cash then remitting that cash to Thailand.

 

Also, I did not mean that being a taxpayer entitles one to benefits such as healthcare or social security. It may I understand if you are a foreigner and an employee here. I was saying that being treated as tax resident should do so.

Basically, that Thailand should be addressing this if it is taxing us and also the impermanent immigration status of forever annual applications for permission to stay for 1 year and meeting the requirements each time. This is treating us as visitors not residents, even if we have spouses and families here? As a visitor why should we pay taxes here. I appreciate  that they are not the same, but they aren't in step nor have the potential to be.

Although  British I was able to obtain permanent residency status in France after 5 years living there AS A TAXPAYER. Even as a "temporary" resident after my first 6 months I was registered in their state healthcare system. It was obligatory, although means assessed for contributions. Thailand could and should do the same for its immigrant tax paying residents.

cheers.

Yes, that's exactly the case, you should think in terms of transferred or remitted funds, assessable income and taxable income. Transferred or remitted funds includes everything you receive, assessible is what is subject to a tax return and taxable, is what's left after you've taken all your TEDA. Ah, we didn't talk about TEDA!

 

Your state pension and private pensions are UK taxable because they arise there, that means there wont be much Thai tax to pay on what is regarded as assessable income once it's received here. But by the time you deduct TEDA (Tax Exemptions, Deductions and Allowances), and apply the zero rated tax band, the average UK pensioner will get the first 500k of assessible income tax free. The net of all that is that Thai tax due will be quite small, unless you have a very large pension income.

[rickudon]

My tax status is that i would pay little if any tax in Thailand. I have a pension which is tax exempt under the UK/Thailand tax agreement, and the rest would be covered by the allowances available. BUT the issue is how to prove this, the money isn't paid direct to a Thai bank, and is transferred from one account to another, with other money, before transfer. There is, of course, absolutely no guidance as to what information i need to provide. And i doubt from what i have heard others say, that at the actual revenue office they have any clue as to what to do either.

 

So we just sit back and wait to see if we get a tax demand in arrears?

[ukrules]

@Mike Lister I got a bank loan from a foreign bank and paid into a foreign bank account this week, I will wire the proceeds of this loan here to live off for some time - lets say until beyond the end of 2024.

 

Assessable  income or not?

 

Bear in mind that people often remortgage property which is merely a secured loan and use the proceeds to live off or purchase something else - like a second home.

 

I don't have a TIN and would like to avoid ever getting one, that's another longer story which involves leaving the country for 6 months during a year when I both 'earn' and submit a far larger sum of money.

[Mike Lister]

54 minutes ago, ukrules said:

@Mike Lister I got a bank loan from a foreign bank and paid into a foreign bank account this week, I will wire the proceeds of this loan here to live off for some time - lets say until beyond the end of 2024.

 

Assessable  income or not?

 

Bear in mind that people often remortgage property which is merely a secured loan and use the proceeds to live off or purchase something else - like a second home.

 

I don't have a TIN and would like to avoid ever getting one, that's another longer story which involves leaving the country for 6 months during a year when I both 'earn' and submit a far larger sum of money.

No, not assessable income.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, rickudon said:

My tax status is that i would pay little if any tax in Thailand. I have a pension which is tax exempt under the UK/Thailand tax agreement, and the rest would be covered by the allowances available. BUT the issue is how to prove this, the money isn't paid direct to a Thai bank, and is transferred from one account to another, with other money, before transfer. There is, of course, absolutely no guidance as to what information i need to provide. And i doubt from what i have heard others say, that at the actual revenue office they have any clue as to what to do either.

 

So we just sit back and wait to see if we get a tax demand in arrears?

Why would you get a tax demand if you haven't  filed a tax return!

[Dogmatix]

On 2/14/2024 at 4:46 PM, Kalasin Jo said:

Well Mike I guess that is the issue. I'm not an accountant, let alone a tax expert here or anywhere else. How do the Thai RD define "income" then? Is it any  (all) money sent to Thailand from overseas in their tax year regardless of source overseas?. That could include the sale proceeds of a capital item such as a house, a car, jewellery, watch etc etc remitted here as cash. What of the sum required to be in a Thai bank remitted from abroad and/or topped up from abroad for extensions of visas?

 

Am I being a pain ? Sorry if I am. I do hope absolutely clear guidance will be forthcoming from the Thai RD. Wishful thinking may be? Lost in translation may be, or simply the whim of your local office(er) as often with the Immigration regs? Some years back my local RD office were totally uninterested implying I should go away and stop making waves! So I did. Why did I even try? Well, it was based on my experience in France where I was resident for many years. There there is a legal obligation on you to register and make tax declarations if in country more than 180 days. Naively I thought it would be the same here

 

There are some, and I am one, that think that if the Thai government are going to regard retirees living 180 days or more here on foreign pensions and nothing else as tax resident, requiring annual tax declarations and potentially tax bills they should extend to them the same rights as Thai taxpayers and not regard us as long staying visitors/tourists with no rights. That should mean giving access to the thai state healthcare and welfare system, remove us from the dual pricing they apply to foreigners, give us a route to permanent resident immigration status, ending the forever annual extensions and reporting requirements when that is achieved ( 5 years of residency seems sensible and is used by other countries).

Or of course the government could simply maintain the status quo and exempt those with retirement visas /extensions.

Or we could spend less than 180 days a year here but for those with spouses and families here that is not necessarily realistic.

I do hope this "curve ball" and the alarm it has caused some foreign retirees  ( others just don't believe it), often supporting Thai  spouses and Thai families on their modest pensions, and the quid pro quo issues I raise are being drawn to the attention of those in power here by some with more clout than little old me! As far as I can see the Embassies have been silent.

Cheers!

 

No, It was the bit in the RD case study where they suggested that rules for asset declaration by political office holders required them to report assets and liabilities of live in common law spouses as if they were lawful spouses.  The RD said that these rules implied that Thai law could recognize common law marriage which might be relevant in the tax case i.e. allowing a 20 million exemption of common law spouses.  I didn't go into detail on this, as I thought it convoluted and not something that farangs could put any faith in.  But the confirmation of that overseas remittances from foreigners to Thai spouses count for 20 million exemption is positive in my view. 

[JimTripper]

On 2/15/2024 at 9:35 PM, rickudon said:

My tax status is that i would pay little if any tax in Thailand. I have a pension which is tax exempt under the UK/Thailand tax agreement, and the rest would be covered by the allowances available. BUT the issue is how to prove this, the money isn't paid direct to a Thai bank, and is transferred from one account to another, with other money, before transfer. There is, of course, absolutely no guidance as to what information i need to provide. And i doubt from what i have heard others say, that at the actual revenue office they have any clue as to what to do either.

 

So we just sit back and wait to see if we get a tax demand in arrears?

I would just wait and you would likely get a demand to file for a prior year. At that point you could choose to play ball, file and maybe pay a small non-payment penalty, or just figure it's too much hassle and head for plan b at another location.

[Mike Lister]

18 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

I would just wait and you would likely get a demand to file for a prior year. At that point you could choose to play ball, file and maybe pay a small non-payment penalty, or just figure it's too much hassle and head for plan b at another location.

I'm not sure if the Thai RD is at that stage in their development whereby they issue demands to file, especially for previous years. For several years I received blank tax forms from them but didn't file, nothing ever happened as a result. I don't discount the possibility however that one day, somebody from the RD might knock on my door waving a handful of blank tax return forms from 2007 to 2014, asking, what about these then!  🙂

[Kalasin Jo]

On 2/10/2024 at 1:11 PM, happydreamer said:

Ive actually found the tax rates here to be much higher than what they are at home.

Do you mean the tax bands apply to much lower levels of income? 

[Kalasin Jo]

On 2/14/2024 at 5:56 PM, JimGant said:

 

What of it? I wire funds from a savings account originally funded 11 years ago, and containing more than enough for any future wires to Thailand. My Wise wires to Thailand go from this fund, thus it's all from pre 2024 income, and thus exempt from Thai taxation. But, if I put my Air Force retirement checks and Social Security checks into a new checking account -- and Wise transfer from that? Again, it's all tax exempt per the DTA. But if that account also had private pension deposits (taxable by Thailand, via the DTA) -- then I'd just say that all remittances from this checking account first came from Air Force pensions and Social  Security. Any overage, then, would then tap into that private pension, and thus I would be in the accounting situation of saying that this overage is, yes, assessable (taxable) income for Thai tax purposes. As of right now, I'm in the driver's seat for accounting what monies are from what tranches in the financial accounts from which I wire money to Thailand from. The Thai tax folks are in no position to question the complexion of your remitted income -- that's necessarily up to you, if and when any such income becomes subject to a Thai tax return.

Glad you have it all sorted 

[Kalasin Jo]

11 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm not sure if the Thai RD is at that stage in their development whereby they issue demands to file, especially for previous years. For several years I received blank tax forms from them but didn't file, nothing ever happened as a result. I don't discount the possibility however that one day, somebody from the RD might knock on my door waving a handful of blank tax return forms from 2007 to 2014, asking, what about these then!  🙂

I guess the question here is just how much interest the TRD will exhibit regarding expat retirees turning up at their local office asking what they have to do. Will it be similar to Immigration where each office(er) interprets regulations differently?

I'm of the view that this change is aimed at Thais who offshore their wealth who have been getting a remarkable deal. 

That doesn't mean it should be ignored by expat retirees. As with most countries the obligation to establish whether you should be filing a tax return here each year if you are not automatically in the system through employment is on the individual not on the TRD. 

A little while back I read in an article that just over (or it could have said just under ) half the working age population in Thailand are not in regular gainful employment but work for others on a casual hourly or daily cash in hand or benefit in kind basis or for themselves by making or growing to sell for cash in the local markets. No records of such transactions. That's certainly how it is round here and there is a marked difference between those who do this, as I call it daily hand to mouth existence,  and the local shops which increasingly now record all transactions and give till receipts, and increasing use of payment apps and QR codes. I've started to notice that even a few of the small local market vendors have QR payment set up.

[Mike Lister]

16 minutes ago, Kalasin Jo said:

I guess the question here is just how much interest the TRD will exhibit regarding expat retirees turning up at their local office asking what they have to do. Will it be similar to Immigration where each office(er) interprets regulations differently?

I'm of the view that this change is aimed at Thais who offshore their wealth who have been getting a remarkable deal. 

That doesn't mean it should be ignored by expat retirees. As with most countries the obligation to establish whether you should be filing a tax return here each year if you are not automatically in the system through employment is on the individual not on the TRD. 

A little while back I read in an article that just over (or it could have said just under ) half the working age population in Thailand are not in regular gainful employment but work for others on a casual hourly or daily cash in hand or benefit in kind basis or for themselves by making or growing to sell for cash in the local markets. No records of such transactions. That's certainly how it is round here and there is a marked difference between those who do this, as I call it daily hand to mouth existence,  and the local shops which increasingly now record all transactions and give till receipts, and increasing use of payment apps and QR codes. I've started to notice that even a few of the small local market vendors have QR payment set up.

Yep, agreed on all points.

 

Except, the responsibility for declaring income and filing a return, rests solely with the taxpayer. It is not impossible to think that a person might ignore all of this for three five, seven years or more and nothing will happen. But eventually, the RD will become more used to the idea that foreigners have to file returns and systems will be developed and information will start to flow. At some point, the RD is very likely to turn round and say, enough is enough, we need a return from this guy and whilst you're at it, find out about these past years also. Isn't that what you would do if you were them.

[UKresonant]

7 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Except, the responsibility for declaring income and filing a return, rests solely with the taxpayer.

Just thinking out load again. 

 

I've been thinking about working the problem from the point of view would it be better to do a tax return, as proof that a particular year is confirmed as resolves with Thai RD.

 

I'm not tax resident this year. but say I was tax resident in a couple of years time. 

 

Provided the tax credit for tax paid in the UK mainly against pensions, is accepted to offset Thai tax computation, rather than line items,  I could potentially do a global Tax return and the UK tax would balance the Thai Tax. This would seem to be the case from £14000 (623000THB) TO £27000ish (1200000THB). There by obtaining a written recognition, that there is no tax due that year? 

 

If I had no recognition from Thai RD , when Thai Tax Resident say in 2026, , into Thailand later in 2028 if also Thai resident,  it may be then against the allowances of that later year, rather than 2026, and may push it into a higher tax band? If no formal clearance from any particular previous year, it could build liability.

 

As years move on it would become more complex, over 65 year allowance would kick-in but then another year or two, more pension and streams would also kick in, letting things be open to question later, could cost more later (even ignoring potential penalties).  

 

Or as I'm looking at it from a reverse angle, if you don't physically remit funds can you still resolve your Thai tax resident liability, for a particular tax year, in year (when zero or close to zero). But if you can't, would the example 2028 remitted funds possibly be deemed to be 2026 earnings coming in, in the first  instance.  ( very much theoretical)  

 

Just a hypothetical scenario as time moves on! (whilst hoping to hear some good experience reports for a variety of situations later).

 

Also there is the potential that though I exceed 180 days in the previous Calendar year, but then may not be present in Thailand between 1st Jan to 31st March of the following year, when a potential tax filing may be due.  (How to  secure online portal, zoom call)

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, UKresonant said:

Just thinking out load again. 

 

I've been thinking about working the problem from the point of view would it be better to do a tax return, as proof that a particular year is confirmed as resolves with Thai RD.

 

I'm not tax resident this year. but say I was tax resident in a couple of years time. 

 

Provided the tax credit for tax paid in the UK mainly against pensions, is accepted to offset Thai tax computation, rather than line items,  I could potentially do a global Tax return and the UK tax would balance the Thai Tax. This would seem to be the case from £14000 (623000THB) TO £27000ish (1200000THB). There by obtaining a written recognition, that there is no tax due that year? 

 

If I had no recognition from Thai RD , when Thai Tax Resident say in 2026, , into Thailand later in 2028 if also Thai resident,  it may be then against the allowances of that later year, rather than 2026, and may push it into a higher tax band? If no formal clearance from any particular previous year, it could build liability.

 

As years move on it would become more complex, over 65 year allowance would kick-in but then another year or two, more pension and streams would also kick in, letting things be open to question later, could cost more later (even ignoring potential penalties).  

 

Or as I'm looking at it from a reverse angle, if you don't physically remit funds can you still resolve your Thai tax resident liability, for a particular tax year, in year (when zero or close to zero). But if you can't, would the example 2028 remitted funds possibly be deemed to be 2026 earnings coming in, in the first  instance.  ( very much theoretical)  

 

Just a hypothetical scenario as time moves on! (whilst hoping to hear some good experience reports for a variety of situations later).

 

Also there is the potential that though I exceed 180 days in the previous Calendar year, but then may not be present in Thailand between 1st Jan to 31st March of the following year, when a potential tax filing may be due.  (How to  secure online portal, zoom call)

 

You may be over thinking things and worrying unnecessarily. Your point about wanting to prove conclusively that taxes were resolved for a particular year is valid but it comes back to the issue of needing to file a null return. FWIW in the years that I don't file a return here, I simply get a one year bank statement showing all my transactions and file it in case it's needed in the future, along with any associated paperwork. 

[UKresonant]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

You may be over thinking things and worrying unnecessarily. Your point about wanting to prove conclusively that taxes were resolved for a particular year is valid but it comes back to the issue of needing to file a null return. FWIW in the years that I don't file a return here, I simply get a one year bank statement showing all my transactions and file it in case it's needed in the future, along with any associated paperwork. 

 

After all the discussion on the subject, I would say am no longer worried in any way, just have to be more meticulous with record keeping and end of year balances and backing it all up to a cloud I could access whilst in Thailand in future, if then required. 

Also to de-mingle income types, in the UK, and to minimise transaction entries at the fishmonger to condense the relevant statements.

All my tax in the UK is deducted automatically and has been arranged in the UK to be that way!

[Mike Lister]

31 minutes ago, UKresonant said:

 

After all the discussion on the subject, I would say am no longer worried in any way, just have to be more meticulous with record keeping and end of year balances and backing it all up to a cloud I could access whilst in Thailand in future, if then required. 

Also to de-mingle income types, in the UK, and to minimise transaction entries at the fishmonger to condense the relevant statements.

All my tax in the UK is deducted automatically and has been arranged in the UK to be that way!

That's excellent news, you're the proof that by learning and bothering to make the effort to understand what's involved, that the problem goes away. None of this, "it aint going to happen" nonsense. No more, "I'm leaving tomorrow and going back home" rubbish. No more, "it's all scaremongering" bravado. And certainly, no more of this, "let's wait and see when they announce something". The different physiologies are all fascinating,  mostly denial, fear or laziness it seems. Thirty minutes to read the document, thirty more minutes to digest things and the problem is fixed, what could be simpler. Talking of which, where bugger bogner these days, haven't seen him for a while!

[gearbox]

On 2/14/2024 at 11:21 AM, CharlesHolzhauer said:

Any thoughts on this?

a) The Australian government actively encourages 'self-funding retirees,' referring to individuals who are financially independent and do not rely on government support for their retirement. These retirees can invest their accumulated wealth in an 'Account-Based Pension,' where pension payments must be withdrawn at a minimum rate as determined by the government annually. These pension payments are tax-free. Due to the freedom of movement, individuals can relocate and retire in Thailand without losing the benefits provided in an 'Account-Based Pension' environment.

b) An Australian individual has the legal option to liquidate their entire stock portfolio, submit a final tax return to the Australian Tax Office (ATO), fulfill necessary tax payments, and subsequently repurchase the same or other investment products. Following this process, the individual can relocate to a country such as Thailand and rely on the distributions/dividends generated by their investments for their cost of living. The individual, being a non-resident of Australia for tax purposes, benefits from automatically deducted withholding taxes. Should the individual choose to make significant purchases, such as a condo or car, and decide to sell units or shares to cover such expenditures, it would not trigger a taxable event, as they are considered a non-resident for tax purposes. All these actions are within the bounds of the law.

Do Australian individuals residing in Thailand who legally do not pay taxes in Australia face any repercussions from the Thai RD?

It depends how the DTA is interpreted. From what I read if you are not Australian tax resident your super may be taxable in Thailand. If you are a resident in both countries there are "tiebreaker" rules to determine primary tax residency for specific cases, e.g pensions.

 

Again, it seems that the only amounts taxable in Thailand are the one entering the country, so if you transfer nothing, nothing will get taxed. This is different from the Oz taxation, if you are resident you get taxed on worldwide income, it doesn't matter if you transfer it to Oz or not.

 

I'm starting withdrawing super sometimes in 2025, to remove any doubts I'm planning to spend 7 months back in Oz.