Controversy erupts as Thai doctors clash over mRNA vaccine effect

[dinsdale]

7 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

@dinsdale > The large majority of your posts in this thread I wholeheartedly agree with.  But you are currently in a somewhat uncomfortable position.  You are still praising the merits of the jabs while at same time being 'accused' by the covid jab-enthusiasts of being a loony anti-vax conspiracy adept.  A bit like dr John Campbell who started as a pure sang covid-jab Believer, and had the genuine intent of providing accurate information to his viewers about the subject, but gradually - as the evidence kept on accumulating - came to realize that the holes in the official narrative were too big to be ignored.  To his credit he is still providing accurate information even though he is now Persona Non Grata to many of his previous audience.  And unfortunately he must walk on eggshells in his current videos as he cannot show the back of his tongue as that would mean him being banned from YouTube.  Hence he lets his audience draw their conclusions from the data he presents, by asking rhetorical questions.  

Cheers and I agree with your post but I am in no way praising the merits of mRNA vaccines. What I am saying is it should only be for the vulnerable. Apart from that I have stated many times I am not anti vaccination as such. Children should have their vaccinations against measles, diphtheria, polio etc. I have sometime within the last decade (can't exactly remember) had the rabies jabs and tetanus. Rabies jabs certainly had some side effects. I also had 2 AZ in 2021. I will not have another jab for covid. It's the mRNA technology I have a problem with along with the censorship that has been put in place.

[dinsdale]

19 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Hardly...as shown below. He's been responsible a long list of misleading info or misinformation claims regarding COVID:

 

 

 

 

https://healthfeedback.org/authors/john-campbell/

 

 

 

I'm sure it doesn't take much searching to find a whole lot of articles to discredit anyone who challenges the narrative. Very difficult to find articles going in the other direction. As I say in information warfare it's those who control the information that have the upper hand.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

I'm sure it doesn't take much searching to find a whole lot of articles to discredit anyone who challenges the narrative. Very difficult to find articles going in the other direction. As I say in information warfare it's those who control the information that have the upper hand.

 

It's sad and unfortunate that someone like Campbell who has such a large YT following also has such a terrible record when it comes to providing credible, accurate reports on COVID, as shown above.

 

Pretty much opposite to the Health Feedback website that has called out his many failings:

 

 

Failed Fact Checks

• None. In fact, they are a part of the International Fact-Checking Network (IFCN).

Overall, we rate Health Feedback a pro-science fact-checker based on utilizing scientific evidence to refute claims. We also rate them Very-High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and the use of expert Ph.D. level scientists/doctors to fact check claims. (D. Van Zandt 4/19/2020) Updated (8/07/2023)

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/health-feedback/

 

[xylophone]

30 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

@dinsdale > The large majority of your posts in this thread I wholeheartedly agree with.  But you are currently in a somewhat uncomfortable position.  You are still praising the merits of the jabs while at same time being 'accused' by the covid jab-enthusiasts of being a loony anti-vax conspiracy adept.  A bit like dr John Campbell who started as a pure sang covid-jab Believer, and had the genuine intent of providing accurate information to his viewers about the subject, but gradually - as the evidence kept on accumulating - came to realize that the holes in the official narrative were too big to be ignored.  To his credit he is still providing accurate information even though he is now Persona Non Grata to many of his previous audience.  And unfortunately he must walk on eggshells in his current videos as he cannot show the back of his tongue as that would mean him being banned from YouTube.  Hence he lets his audience draw their conclusions from the data he presents, by asking rhetorical questions.  

Dr John Campbell is a nurse educator with the dubious distinction of promoting ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine as "cures" for Covid 19, which have been disproven time and time again by many doctors and scientists/organisations/hospitals/universities in the medical profession.

 

He switched his narrative from what the medical fraternity were advising, when he realised that he could make more money from promoting ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine along with other anti-VAX nonsense.

 

The man is a charlatan and belongs alongside the likes of trump for his lies and misinformation.

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, dinsdale said:

It's 48 hrs because they didn't test after that.

 

From your link:

 

Quote

Conclusion
* Expression of luciferase was largely limited to the injection site, with some distribution to
liver.
* Luciferase signal reduced to background level at injection site and in liver in 216 hours and
48 hours, respectively.
* LNP8 induced an antigen-specific T cell response, but not B-cell response (no anti-luciferase
antibodies).

 

Your chart shows radiation measured over 48 hours, measurement appears to have continued to at least 216 hours.  But why extend the chart past 48 hours when

 

Quote

No signal was detected in liver at 48 h post immunisation.

 

That would merely condense all the pertinent data into a tiny margin on the left side of the chart, leading to conspiracy theorists claiming the scientists were trying to hide something.

 

Note that charts 4.3 and 4.5 indicate measurements continued at least to day 9.

[jaywalker2]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

More disinformation

AZ never even applied for FDA approval due to insufficient production.

Some countries discontinued the use of AZ due to adverse media allegations that were never proven, the vaccine is still being produced.

One thing that has been proven, a friend of mine contracted Bullous Pemphigold as a result of the mRNA vaccine, his first 2 shots of AZ had no adverse effects.

No, it didn't apply for approval because the FDA rejected the original trial data. The FDA wanted them to do another bigger trial but there were problems with that as well. It had nothing to do with production shortfalls because the US government had already stockpiled a supply of the AZ vaccine in the expectation it would be approved. They ended up giving it to Canada instead.

 

I along with most people in Thailand I imagine had two shots of AZ with no ill effects. The side effects were rare but the blood clots did kill a number of people, at least 19 in the UK. The bigger issue though was that the mRNA vaccines were considered much more effective.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

And then we could add this one to the long list pertaining to the claims made by embalmer Hirschman via his YT interview with Campbell, as well as to the discredited claims made in the OP of this thread.

 

Photos of blood clots removed during embalming don’t show any link with COVID-19 vaccines; blood clotting risk is much higher after COVID-19 than vaccination

 

02 Nov 2022

 

"Inadequate support: Abnormal blood clotting can have many causes unrelated to COVID-19 vaccines, for example an underlying pathology or COVID-19 itself, which is a more likely cause of blood clotting than vaccination. Blood clotting also happens after death. Without a pathological analysis, photos of clots don’t provide sufficient evidence to suggest that those clots are neither abnormal nor linked to vaccination."

...

"The article attributed this photo to Richard Hirschman, an embalmer who claimed to have found “strange clots” in deceased people since the rollout of COVID-19 vaccines. After the article was published, Health Feedback reviewed Hirschman’s claim and found no scientific evidence supporting an association between such clots and COVID-19 vaccines."

...

"It’s not the first time such a claim has been made. In fact, the claim that COVID-19 vaccines caused abnormal clots in corpses based on anecdotal reports from embalmers started circulating in late 2021, and spread thanks to individuals such as Jane Ruby and Mike Adams. However, multiple organizations, including Health Feedback, AFP, and PolitiFact, found this claim to be unsubstantiated."

 

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/photos-blood-clots-embalming-dont-show-link-with-covid-19-vaccines-blood-clotting-risk-higher-after-covid-19/

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The above Health Feedback report also raises an explanation I haven't seen previously address in this thread, with a professor of mortuary science explaining how the presence of embalming fluid in the body containing formaldehyde can contribute to ad change the appearance of clots.

 

"Benjamin Schmidt, a professor of mortuary science at the Northeast Texas Community College, analyzed the reasons why the claim is unsupported in an episode of his podcast The Funeral Science Podcast (starting at minute 10:20).

 

In an email to Health Feedback, Schmidt explained that embalming fluids typically contain formaldehyde, a preservative that changes the blood’s properties and can contribute to blood clotting:

“One thing that needs to be added to the discussion that is being overlooked is the fact that formaldehyde coagulates proteins, so those clots are going to be different because they are embalmed blood.”\

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/photos-blood-clots-embalming-dont-show-link-with-covid-19-vaccines-blood-clotting-risk-higher-after-covid-19/

 

[dinsdale]

11 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

The above Health Feedback report also raises an explanation I haven't seen previously address in this thread, with a professor of mortuary science explaining how the presence of embalming fluid in the body containing formaldehyde can contribute to ad change the appearance of clots.

 

"Benjamin Schmidt, a professor of mortuary science at the Northeast Texas Community College, analyzed the reasons why the claim is unsupported in an episode of his podcast The Funeral Science Podcast (starting at minute 10:20).

 

In an email to Health Feedback, Schmidt explained that embalming fluids typically contain formaldehyde, a preservative that changes the blood’s properties and can contribute to blood clotting:

“One thing that needs to be added to the discussion that is being overlooked is the fact that formaldehyde coagulates proteins, so those clots are going to be different because they are embalmed blood.”\

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/photos-blood-clots-embalming-dont-show-link-with-covid-19-vaccines-blood-clotting-risk-higher-after-covid-19/

 

Very interesting but the thing is, which is probably more interesting, these white clots are being found pre-embalming. Found when the bodies are being prepared for the procedure. There's also the point that (as yet seems to be unverified) these white clots have been found in living patients.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

McGill University Office for Science and Society

Separating Sense from Nonsense

 

25 Nov 2022

 

"As anatomical pathology specialist Irene Sansano told a fact-checking website, the clots shown by Hirschman do not look different from the ones pathologists regularly see in blood clot autopsies at the hospital. To know if there really was an uptick in clots seen during embalming, we can’t rely on a scattering of anecdotes. We would need a database to monitor trends, and as Schmidt points out, this database does not exist."

....

"- The clots shown by the embalmers in the movie seem to medical experts to be no different than the clots that commonly occur in life and also after death."

 

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-critical-thinking/anti-vaccine-documentary-died-suddenly-wants-you-feel-not-think

 

[dinsdale]

6 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

McGill University Office for Science and Society

Separating Sense from Nonsense

 

25 Nov 2022

 

"As anatomical pathology specialist Irene Sansano told a fact-checking website, the clots shown by Hirschman do not look different from the ones pathologists regularly see in blood clot autopsies at the hospital. To know if there really was an uptick in clots seen during embalming, we can’t rely on a scattering of anecdotes. We would need a database to monitor trends, and as Schmidt points out, this database does not exist."

....

"- The clots shown by the embalmers in the movie seem to medical experts to be no different than the clots that commonly occur in life and also after death."

 

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-critical-thinking/anti-vaccine-documentary-died-suddenly-wants-you-feel-not-think

 

It is interesting isn't it when you have embalmers who have been doing the job for years saying they've never seen anything like it. Once again the truth of the matter seems to be in dispute.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

It is interesting isn't it when you have embalmers who have been doing the job for years saying they've never seen anything like it. Once again the truth of the matter seems to be in dispute.

 

Dubious case for your prosecution:

 

"Hirschman was featured in a video posted by the “Stew Peters Network” on Rumble in January, and his apparent findings have been highlighted on other dubious websites. But in a phone interview with FactCheck.org, he told us he never said he could prove a connection between the clots he was showing and the COVID-19 vaccines.

 

“I can’t prove what this is,” Hirschman told FactCheck.org in a phone interview. “I’m not a doctor nor a scientist — I never said I was.”

 

https://www.factcheck.org/2022/12/scicheck-died-suddenly-pushes-bogus-depopulation-theory/

 

 

 

 

[dinsdale]

10 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Dubious case for your prosecution:

 

"Hirschman was featured in a video posted by the “Stew Peters Network” on Rumble in January, and his apparent findings have been highlighted on other dubious websites. But in a phone interview with FactCheck.org, he told us he never said he could prove a connection between the clots he was showing and the COVID-19 vaccines.

 

“I can’t prove what this is,” Hirschman told FactCheck.org in a phone interview. “I’m not a doctor nor a scientist — I never said I was.”

 

https://www.factcheck.org/2022/12/scicheck-died-suddenly-pushes-bogus-depopulation-theory/

 

 

 

 

You've used this one before and the response to it was very much what I'm going to say. The embalmers have found these clots. As Hirschman says he's no doctor or scientist but the clots are there. This seems to be undeniable. They have the clots. What's causing them and if there is a connection between the clots and the vaccines is what needs investigation, investigation independent of big pharma, to discover if there is a link. As it is it's just speculation one way or the other. It may be pure coincidence that they seem to have been found sometime after the vaccine rollout and not before. 

[Roo Island]

5 hours ago, Dolf said:

People are free to ignore him. Doctors and drug companies have misled the public for many years. It's not just youtubers misleading people.

 

 

BS. Doctors have not mislead the public for years. Only the ones spewing misinformation on social media have.

[Dolf]

5 minutes ago, Roo Island said:

BS. Doctors have not mislead the public for years. Only the ones spewing misinformation on social media have.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2015/05/12/a-top-cardiologist-says-a-diet-drug-maker-misled-patients-and-investors/?sh=12aa060b51d7

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-11521873

[dinsdale]

4 minutes ago, Roo Island said:

BS. Doctors have not mislead the public for years. Only the ones spewing misinformation on social media have.

Go to some doctors in Thailand with a sprained ankle and you will come out with antibiotics. Indeed I remember when I was young in Australia when there was a push back against over prescribing anti biotics. There was resistance to this.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

If there  was any credibility to these claims of some unusual presentation of clotting, you'd think that after this bunk has been circulating in anti-vax circles for several years, that we'd see some comment from the actual experts in the field -- medical pathologists -- saying hey, something different is going on here.

 

But, from all the checking I can find online, the only comments I've seen on this subject from medical pathologists are that the shown clots are typical of those found in human bodies post mortem. So perhaps that's why this whole contretemps has remained in the domain of fringe anti-vaxers and documented misinformation purveyors.

 

"The National Funeral Directors Association told PolitiFact in February that embalmers had noticed an increase in blood clots among COVID-19-related deaths, including vaccinated and unvaccinated people. [bolding added]

 

Jessica Koth, director of public relations for the association, told us in an email that “[f]uneral service professionals are in no way qualified to draw any conclusions about COVID vaccines and blood clots. We’re not medical examiners or physicians or scientists.”

 

https://www.factcheck.org/2022/12/scicheck-died-suddenly-pushes-bogus-depopulation-theory/

 

 

Not to mention:

 

"Brooke Whisnant also said that Hirschman had performed embalming services at their funeral home and pointed out that they don’t know who’s been vaccinated and who hasn’t among the deceased."

 

 

[Roo Island]

5 hours ago, dinsdale said:

Being dictated to by big pharma and the governments in their pockets isn't freedom. People should be able to make their own informed decisions which means ALL available research and information should be on the table not just that which gets the tick of approaval from the vested interests. As for misinformation why was AZ called safe and effective when it wasn't (as is public knowelge AZ caused blood clots and the product was withdrawn). I'll tell you. Money. How about the fact that mRNA spike proteins are found throughout the body when the manufacturers of said product said this would not be the case.

A study involving rats showed a wide systemic distibution of spike proteinsand this was before the emergency approaval of the mRNA vaccines. The public were told that it stays in the deltoid muscle. Clear misinformation.

 

https://www.tga.gov.au/sites/default/files/foi-2389-06.pdf

 

 

Governments in the pockets of big pharma? Pull out the tin foil.

[Dolf]

1 minute ago, Roo Island said:

Governments in the pockets of big pharma? Pull out the tin foil.

Big pharma doesn't make large donations to political parties?

[Roo Island]

2 hours ago, dinsdale said:

There are people for whom the vaccine is probably a good thing and then there are those where it's not needed. Now it's Omicron this is certainly the case evidenced by govts recommending jabs only for the vulnurable and those over a particular age. I think in the UK it's now 70 yrs old.

Very few people don't need it. Very few.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

37 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

You've used this one before and the response to it was very much what I'm going to say. The embalmers have found these clots. As Hirschman says he's no doctor or scientist but the clots are there. This seems to be undeniable. They have the clots. What's causing them and if there is a connection between the clots and the vaccines is what needs investigation, investigation independent of big pharma, to discover if there is a link. As it is it's just speculation one way or the other. It may be pure coincidence that they seem to have been found sometime after the vaccine rollout and not before. 

 

Various medical professionals quoted earlier in this thread have repeatedly said that post mortem blood clotting is a normal thing, and isn't something that suddenly appeared post COVID. And that the clots shown by Hirschman look like normal postmortem clots.

 

 

[Roo Island]

11 minutes ago, Dolf said:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2015/05/12/a-top-cardiologist-says-a-diet-drug-maker-misled-patients-and-investors/?sh=12aa060b51d7

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-11521873

You can always show isolated incidents. But overall. Doctors do NOT intentionally mislead you.

 

Cherry picking

[Roo Island]

1 minute ago, Dolf said:

Young people don't need it so about half the population.

Right. They are just carriers that help the spread. Jeez.

[rattlesnake]

9 hours ago, Roo Island said:

The Swedish experiment was proven not to have worked. But it's something covid deniers latch onto.

 

FYI:

 

In contrast, death rates fell in countries like Sweden and Norway and also New Zealand, who contained the virus successfully before its vaccination programme took off.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-65975154

 

 

[dinsdale]

Just now, Roo Island said:

Very few people don't need it. Very few.

Read this and you will see that it is recommended to a targeted section of the population.

The Australian Government Booster Advice.

https://www.health.gov.au/our-work/covid-19-vaccines/getting-your-vaccination/booster-doses

Booster doses

A booster dose is recommended for all adults:

aged 65 years and over

aged 18 to 64 who have medical comorbidities that increase their risk of severe COVID-19

aged 18 to 64 who have a disability with significant or complex health needs

You can also consider a COVID-19 booster dose for yourself or someone you care for if you have spoken with your healthcare provider and are:

an adult aged 18 to 64 years without risk factors for severe COVID-19

a child aged 5 to 17 years who has medical comorbidities that increase their risk of severe COVID-19 illness

a child aged 5 to 17 years who has a disability with significant or complex health needs

A second COVID-19 booster dose is recommended for all adults aged 75 years and over

All adults aged 65 to 74 years, and adults aged 18 to 64 years with severe immunocompromise can get a  second booster dose after discussion with their healthcare provider.

[Dolf]

4 minutes ago, Roo Island said:

Right. They are just carriers that help the spread. Jeez.

So you want young people to take drugs to protect you? Rather selfish of you. Young people should look after their own bodies.

[dinsdale]

7 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Various medical professionals quoted earlier in this thread have repeatedly said that post mortem blood clotting is a normal thing, and isn't something that suddenly appeared post COVID.

 

Yep post mortum clotting happens but if you actually watch the videos you will see that these clots are usually dark red and jelly like. No one is disputing this.

[dinsdale]

9 minutes ago, Roo Island said:

Right. They are just carriers that help the spread. Jeez.

Rediculous. Probably every person on earth has been exposed to the virus at one stage. Natural immunity is built. Vaccination doesn't mean you can't spread the virus. This is now endemic. It is no longer a pandemic. Do you suggest healthy people should continue to be jabbed for the rest of their lives? Pure nonsense.

[Roo Island]

12 minutes ago, Dolf said:

So you want young people to take drugs to protect you? Rather selfish of you. Young people should look after their own bodies.

Yeah. Just like I don't like drunk drivers. Very selfish.

[Roo Island]

5 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

Rediculous. Probably every person on earth has been exposed to the virus at one stage. Natural immunity is built. Vaccination doesn't mean you can't spread the virus. This is now endemic. It is no longer a pandemic. Do you suggest healthy people should continue to be jabbed for the rest of their lives? Pure nonsense.

We're in a different phase now. The virus is constantly changing. Thus, so will the guidelines.