I hear that in the U.K. re pensions claw backs.

[beautifulthailand99]

(To be sung in the style of Gilbert and Sullivan's patter song)

 

Verse 1: In Thailand, sunny Thailand, there dwells a British gent, A retired ex-pat, content with every pound and cent. But trouble brews, oh what a mess, his pension's cause for strife, For DWP has caught wind of his fraudulent pension life!

 

Chorus: Oh, this ex-pat in Thailand, a pensioner so bold, Thought he could outwit the DWP, but now the truth's been told. A frozen pension, uplifted wrongly, now he must pay the fee, Caught in the grasp of bureaucracy, in sunny Thailand by the sea!

 

Verse 2: He sipped his tea and lounged in ease, no thought of right or wrong, But the DWP had other plans, their audit came along. They found his scheme, his clever ploy, to get more than his due, Now he's in quite a pickle, with no idea what to do!

 

Chorus: Oh, this ex-pat in Thailand, a pensioner so bold, Thought he could outwit the DWP, but now the truth's been told. A frozen pension, uplifted wrongly, now he must pay the fee, Caught in the grasp of bureaucracy, in sunny Thailand by the sea!

 

Verse 3: To court he goes, with papers piled, his case a tangled mess, Explaining to the judge and jury, this pensioner in distress. "I didn't know," he pleads his case, "I'm just a foreigner here," But the judge, unmoved, declares his fate with a stern and final leer.

 

Chorus: Oh, this ex-pat in Thailand, a pensioner so bold, Thought he could outwit the DWP, but now the truth's been told. A frozen pension, uplifted wrongly, now he must pay the fee, Caught in the grasp of bureaucracy, in sunny Thailand by the sea!

 

Verse 4: So learn from him, all pensioners, in Thailand or afar, Don't meddle with the DWP, no matter where you are. For they'll catch up, with eagle eyes, and justice will prevail, No pension schemes or wily dreams can tip the DWP's scale!

 

Chorus: Oh, this ex-pat in Thailand, a pensioner so bold, Thought he could outwit the DWP, but now the truth's been told. A frozen pension, uplifted wrongly, now he must pay the fee, Caught in the grasp of bureaucracy, in sunny Thailand by the sea!

 

(With a grand finale, the song concludes with a warning to all who dare to tangle with pension schemes and government departments, in true Gilbert and Sullivan fashion.)

[transam]

1 minute ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Agreed, or you can claim extreme poverty and probably end up with some small deduction monthly from your pension to pay it back.

Who knows, though I would have thought the fraud would be a criminal offence, and could get complicated, imagine those who have been telling porkies for 20 years...😱

[Georgealbert]

48 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

 

https://www.gov.uk/benefit-fraud#:~:text=Your benefits can be reduced,times you've committed fraud.

Not sure what you are trying to point out. That link has been posted and discussed earlier in the thread.
 

That full section on gov.uk also says only certain benefits (sanctionable) can be stopped or reduced. State pension, is in the section that can not be reduced or stopped for benefit fraud.

 

Evidence posted above shows that DWP do not follow these guidelines.

 

 

[beautifulthailand99]

Just now, transam said:

Who knows, though I would have thought the fraud would be a criminal offence, and could get complicated, imagine those who have been telling porkies for 20 years...😱

Extradition then Britmantoo spends out his final years in the Scrubs and gets extra snout rations by giving favours to Muslim gang members.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

(To be sung in the style of Gilbert and Sullivan's patter song)

 

Verse 1: In Thailand, sunny Thailand, there dwells a British gent, A retired ex-pat, content with every pound and cent. But trouble brews, oh what a mess, his pension's cause for strife, For DWP has caught wind of his fraudulent pension life!

 

Chorus: Oh, this ex-pat in Thailand, a pensioner so bold, Thought he could outwit the DWP, but now the truth's been told. A frozen pension, uplifted wrongly, now he must pay the fee, Caught in the grasp of bureaucracy, in sunny Thailand by the sea!

 

Verse 2: He sipped his tea and lounged in ease, no thought of right or wrong, But the DWP had other plans, their audit came along. They found his scheme, his clever ploy, to get more than his due, Now he's in quite a pickle, with no idea what to do!

 

Chorus: Oh, this ex-pat in Thailand, a pensioner so bold, Thought he could outwit the DWP, but now the truth's been told. A frozen pension, uplifted wrongly, now he must pay the fee, Caught in the grasp of bureaucracy, in sunny Thailand by the sea!

 

Verse 3: To court he goes, with papers piled, his case a tangled mess, Explaining to the judge and jury, this pensioner in distress. "I didn't know," he pleads his case, "I'm just a foreigner here," But the judge, unmoved, declares his fate with a stern and final leer.

 

Chorus: Oh, this ex-pat in Thailand, a pensioner so bold, Thought he could outwit the DWP, but now the truth's been told. A frozen pension, uplifted wrongly, now he must pay the fee, Caught in the grasp of bureaucracy, in sunny Thailand by the sea!

 

Verse 4: So learn from him, all pensioners, in Thailand or afar, Don't meddle with the DWP, no matter where you are. For they'll catch up, with eagle eyes, and justice will prevail, No pension schemes or wily dreams can tip the DWP's scale!

 

Chorus: Oh, this ex-pat in Thailand, a pensioner so bold, Thought he could outwit the DWP, but now the truth's been told. A frozen pension, uplifted wrongly, now he must pay the fee, Caught in the grasp of bureaucracy, in sunny Thailand by the sea!

 

(With a grand finale, the song concludes with a warning to all who dare to tangle with pension schemes and government departments, in true Gilbert and Sullivan fashion.)

Is that called, "The BMT Lament"............😂

[Georgealbert]

1 hour ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Thanks for posting that it is crystal clear if you are caught they will take action. Also looks like if they suspect you of not being truthful which multiple repeated false declarations would confirm, then they are going to go after the overpayment. Wise counsel would suggest that members who flout the rules should probably be circumspect about boasting the fact on an open forum, and should refrain from encouraging others that they won't be caught. Secondly, they should make provision by saving these overpayments just in case they are caught and need to repay them. Lastly, I would never talk about this to fellow expats at the bar, who could ultimately be the ones to whistle blow and dob you in. There are a lot of toxic farang in the LoS who would relish such a thing. Finally, in the absence of new tech that will be impossible to circumvent if you must do it take especial care to cover your tracks, that said I guess in the near future it will be impossible to game the system so you will be caught and will need to pay it back probably through pension deduction at source.

I think that the gov.uk guidance, posted earlier, that says that state pensions cannot be stopped or reduced, is not clear, and clearly people can be penalised on their state pensions.

 

A bit of quick research, seems to show that DWP are using sections 111A and section 112 of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 to prosecute any benefit fraud.

 

Full CPS (Crown Prosecution Service) for prosecuting welfare and health fraud cases linked below.

 

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/prosecuting-welfare-and-health-fraud-cases

Edited February 28 by Georgealbert

[theoldgit]

On 2/27/2024 at 7:57 AM, BritManToo said:

More of the usual BS,

They didn't record past exits/entries .... So knowing if you left may happen today, but it didn't happen yesterday.

After regular Embarkation were abolished carriers were required to collate data of those exiting the UK and forward it to the UKBA. The section processing this data, whose name escapes me, was the only department that was exempt from budgetary cuts.

 

Government departments do share data with each other, I’m currently on an extending trip to the UK, as always l notify the DWP of my stay so l cam claim the pension rate I’m legally allowed to claim, unusually this time l received a number of calls from the DWP checking that I’m still in the UK and what my plans are.

 

Last week I was contacted by the HMRC to advise me that my tax rate had been altered as I’d received more pension that originally expected. I was advised to check the HMRC app, to log in I was required to provide two out of three proofs of identity, my passport or driving licence details are information that could be on my credit file.

 

My experience may not concern those who claim funds they ere not legally entitled to but it may be indicative that the various Government Departments  do actually share more data than we’d like to think.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, theoldgit said:

After regular Embarkation were abolished carriers were required to collate data of those exiting the UK and forward it to the UKBA. The section processing this data, whose name escapes me, was the only department that was exempt from budgetary cuts.

 

Government departments do share data with each other, I’m currently on an extending trip to the UK, as always l notify the DWP of my stay so l cam claim the pension rate I’m legally allowed to claim, unusually this time l received a number of calls from the DWP checking that I’m still in the UK and what my plans are.

 

Last week I was contacted by the HMRC to advise me that my tax rate had been altered as I’d received more pension that originally expected. I was advised to check the HMRC app, to log in I was required to provide two out of three proofs of identity, my passport or driving licence details are information that could be on my credit file.

 

My experience may not concern those who claim funds they ere not legally entitled to but it may be indicative that the various Government Departments  do actually share more data than we’d like to think.

Years back I recall saying on these threads that one day the dots will all line up, the tech thing.

It seems to me that time is close upon us, and those who pooh-poohed then, may now have something to worry about, taking notice of BMT and the other bloke that's just shown up "again" to point you in the direction of possible trouble.........🥴

[Georgealbert]

8 minutes ago, transam said:

Years back I recall saying on these threads that one day the dots will all line up, the tech thing.

It seems to me that time is close upon us, and those who pooh-poohed then, may now have something to worry about, taking notice of BMT and the other bloke that's just shown up "again" to point you in the direction of possible trouble.........🥴

I think the time is still some way off. The new Data Protection and Digital Information Bill, is still to clear the House of Lords and go back to the House of Commons.

 

A calling of a general election would probably stop the bill, and it may or may not be taken up by the next government.

 

Without the new bill, DWP will still rely on existing legislation, without the additional powers of access to information.

 

If the bill is passed, here is the expected timeline to get the new systems in place.

 

“The new system will start to be rolled out in 2025 though some banks may not be on board for a further five years. The DWP estimates it will cost around £30 million a year for them to investigate potential fraud identified by the new system but will save taxpayers £500 million a year through reduced fraud and error. Officials have also estimated that over the first 10 years, the new powers will result in an additional 74,000 prosecutions and 2,500 custodial sentences.”

 

Source - https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/cost-of-living/dwp-bank-checks-see-74000-28240436

[transam]

2 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

I think the time is still some way off. The new Data Protection and Digital Information Bill, is still to clear the House of Lords and go back to the House of Commons.

 

A calling of a general election would probably stop the bill, and it may or may not be taken up by the next government.

 

Without the new bill, DWP will still rely on existing legislation, without the additional powers of access to information.

 

If the bill is passed, here is the expected timeline to get the new systems in place.

 

“The new system will start to be rolled out in 2025 though some banks may not be on board for a further five years. The DWP estimates it will cost around £30 million a year for them to investigate potential fraud identified by the new system but will save taxpayers £500 million a year through reduced fraud and error. Officials have also estimated that over the first 10 years, the new powers will result in an additional 74,000 prosecutions and 2,500 custodial sentences.”

 

Source - https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/cost-of-living/dwp-bank-checks-see-74000-28240436

Yep, as soon as the word gets out folk will think twice before doing a BMT, but as has been pointed out today, they will pounce given the chance.....😬

[transam]

And where has @Tiber gone regarding my blatant lying...

Come out, come out, wherever you are...................😂

[MangoKorat]

It would be interesting to test the legality of the rule that prevents people from receiving pension increases on the basis of 'residence'. The question is, do you actually reside in Thailand?  You have to apply each year to extend your stay and technically that extension can be refused. You can also be told to leave at any time. There are of course written definitions  of what is classed as resident for tax purposes but are there for pensions?

 

Most expats in Thailand are, in reality, a guest.  I would never really consider myself a resident unless I had PR.

 

I also wonder about this scenario: Let's say you leave the UK whilst receiving a pension of £200 per week but the pension is due to increase by 10% the following April.  In March of the next year you return to the UK and stay with a relative until May.  Would you be entitled to receive the April increase? At what point would they consider you as resident and what would qualify that?

[Madgee]

6 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

 

I also wonder about this scenario: Let's say you leave the UK whilst receiving a pension of £200 per week but the pension is due to increase by 10% the following April.  In March of the next year you return to the UK and stay with a relative until May.  Would you be entitled to receive the April increase? At what point would they consider you as resident and what would qualify that?

You can inform the DWP that you are in the UK and you will receive the latest pension increase up to the date you leave, it then reverts to what it was before you entered the country, that is provided you tell them you are leaving (back to Thailand)! As a previous poster stated, they do call you periodically to check if you are still in the UK.  Remember that because of the increase you might be liable for more tax. 

[Baht Simpson]

3 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Lastly, I would never talk about this to fellow expats at the bar, who could ultimately be the ones to whistle blow and dob you in. There are a lot of toxic farang in the LoS who would relish such a thing. 

Agreed, but surely the real toxic ones are the people who commit tax evasion, a serious criminal offense, not the ones who provide evidence against them. 

[MangoKorat]

5 minutes ago, Madgee said:

You can inform the DWP that you are in the UK and you will receive the latest pension increase up to the date you leave, it then reverts to what it was before you entered the country, that is provided you tell them you are leaving (back to Thailand)! As a previous poster stated, they do call you periodically to check if you are still in the UK.  Remember that because of the increase you might be liable for more tax. 

Hmmm, I wasn't clear.  If someone returned to the UK, what's to say that the intention is not permanent? Can you not then change your mind? There must be a point at which they consider you as residing in the UK otherwise someone could go to Thailand on a 1 year retirement visa stay until that visa expires and then return to the UK.  If they stayed in the UK for a year and after that decided to go back to Thailand, surely their pension would not then revert to the amount it was before they went to Thailand the first time? 

 

I know of people who do 6 months in the UK and then 6 months in Thailand - how would DWP view that?

[MangoKorat]

2 minutes ago, Baht Simpson said:

Agreed, but surely the real toxic ones are the people who commit tax evasion, a serious criminal offense, not the ones who provide evidence against them. 

Tax Evasion,? This is about pensions.

[Baht Simpson]

1 minute ago, MangoKorat said:

Tax Evasion,? This is about pensions.

Sorry, I'm getting my terms mixed up but it's still pension fraud.

[MangoKorat]

8 minutes ago, Baht Simpson said:

Agreed, but surely the real toxic ones are the people who commit tax evasion, a serious criminal offense, not the ones who provide evidence against them. 

On the basis that you actually mean not declare that they are living in Thailand for pension purposes - how about this:

 

2 guys, identical ages, both worked all their lives and both paid their NI contributions throughout their lives.

 

One remains in the UK for his retirement, the other decides to go live in Thailand.  Is it fair that the guy who goes to Thailand has his pension frozen?  Who's the criminal?  I'd say its the UK government!

Edited February 28 by MangoKorat

[The Fugitive]

13 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

On the basis that you actually mean not declare that they are living in Thailand for pension purposes - how about this:

 

2 guys, identical ages, both worked all their lives and both paid their NI contributions throughout their lives.

 

One remains in the UK for his retirement, the other decides to go live in Thailand.  Is it fair that the guy who goes to Thailand has his pension frozen?  Who's the criminal?  I'd say its the UK government!

Plus both pay UK Income Tax on their UK pension(s).

[Baht Simpson]

18 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

On the basis that you actually mean not declare that they are living in Thailand for pension purposes - how about this:

 

2 guys, identical ages, both worked all their lives and both paid their NI contributions throughout their lives.

 

One remains in the UK for his retirement, the other decides to go live in Thailand.  Is it fair that the guy who goes to Thailand has his pension frozen?  Who's the criminal?  I'd say its the UK government!

No, of course not. It's desperately unfair. But unfortunately it's the rule. I'm in that situation myself with a pension that's frozen, not because it's the right and moral thing to do but because they can get away with it. That doesn't excuse fraud though. Even worse is that it's not everyone that lives outside the U.K.; certain countries are excluded.

 

I can't see it ever being changed. A few years ago it was referred to the European courts and they sided with the U.K. govt., so it's a bit of a dead duck now.

[Baht Simpson]

14 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

Plus both pay UK Income Tax on their UK pension(s).

Well, at least we've got equality there. 🙂 

[Tiber]

8 hours ago, transam said:

Aaaah, you're that banned bloke, who keeps getting my pension stuff wrong and making stuff up, I wonder how long you will last this time...😂

 

As for my friend, he is now at death's door, yeh, sad.

 

But you carry on with your BS, BS that never comes forward with actual Government stuff, you have had a loooooooooong time to come up with that actual Gov stuff, but you haven't, so that's twice today you get a laugh from me.........😂

 

 

"I can tell you about my cases.   TRANSAM  JUNE 1 2020  PAGE 7

They never went to court, just got 1000 quid fine and repay the over payment figure.

One didn't get the fine because he had a brain something-or-other and his UK sister did his paperwork, but he had to pay back the over payments, his pension payment went back to the figure he would have got when he moved to LOS. They did their homework and told him when that was...".

 

This is your statement ,page 7 Transam  June 1 2020  also ... coming up...........  lol

[BritManToo]

3 hours ago, Georgealbert said:

Officials have also estimated that over the first 10 years, the new powers will result in an additional 74,000 prosecutions and 2,500 custodial sentences.”

You think they're gonna extradite pensioner expats over this? Can't see it happening.

 

Try thinking before posting nonsense!

 

And how much savings would there really be in saving 200 quid a week on a pension payment and then spending 1000 quid a week on prison fees?

 

Not that a custodial sentence is all that bad, they treat old folk in prison better than they treat old folk in care homes.

Edited February 28 by BritManToo

[Tiber]

45 minutes ago, Baht Simpson said:

Sorry, I'm getting my terms mixed up but it's still pension fraud.

Is it   Where is the punishment? surely there must be a crime and a punishment fits the bill,and as far as I can see....none

[Georgealbert]

1 hour ago, MangoKorat said:

It would be interesting to test the legality of the rule that prevents people from receiving pension increases on the basis of 'residence'. The question is, do you actually reside in Thailand?  You have to apply each year to extend your stay and technically that extension can be refused. You can also be told to leave at any time. There are of course written definitions  of what is classed as resident for tax purposes but are there for pensions?

 

Most expats in Thailand are, in reality, a guest.  I would never really consider myself a resident unless I had PR.

 

The legality of the rule, dates back to the history of the state pension.

 

1925 -  Contributory pensions are first introduced and only payable in Great Britain, Northern Ireland and Isle Of Man.

 

1927 - The Contributory Pension Act 1929 Which allowed pensions to be paid in HM’s Dominions

 

1946 - The National Insurance Act 1946 Regulations which contained a provision for disqualification for payments of benefits abroad.

 

1948 - The pension is first increased, but these increases are not paid to people abroad.

 

1955 - The National Insurance(residence and persons abroad) Regulations ,which allowed the pension to be payable anywhere in the world, but not uprated.

These provisions have been carried over in all new acts and regulations since, and it is only where there is negotiated reciprocal agreements in place, that allows for uprating  

 

Edited February 28 by Georgealbert

[Tiber]

8 hours ago, Pumpuynarak said:

IMG_20200715_0001.pdf 853.73 kB · 15 downloads IMG_20200715_0002.pdf 824.06 kB · 12 downloads IMG_20200715_0004.pdf 638.6 kB · 11 downloads IMG_20200715_0003.pdf 521.77 kB · 12 downloads IMG_20200715_0005.pdf 960.11 kB · 12 downloads

YES we have had all this before, as previously stated ,and as you stated "BINGO" meaning yes, to the poster that questioned you on its authenticity and you made a voluntary statement to DWP  inviting potential and actual correspondence.  You shot yourself in the foot on this one,5 years after actual event, taking into account 6 years is the maximum DWP can clawback, so why make voluntary statement with just one year the DWP can clawback, makes no sense, but I know you wanted paperwork so you could re-jig the conclusion

[Tiber]

4 hours ago, transam said:

Who knows, though I would have thought the fraud would be a criminal offence, and could get complicated, imagine those who have been telling porkies for 20 years...😱

...but its only 6  years DWP can clawback

[Georgealbert]

26 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

You think they're gonna extradite pensioner expats over this? Can't see it happening.

 

Try thinking before posting nonsense!

 

And how much savings would there really be in saving 200 quid a week on a pension payment and then spending 1000 quid a week on prison fees?

 

Not that a custodial sentence is all that bad, they treat old folk in prison better than they treat old folk in care homes.

Sorry but I was not repeating nonsense, but quoted what a government source stated (even linked it).

 

I also think I have posted far more facts, links and info in the thread, than just ranting and claiming others are talking nonsense..

 

I do not care what you tell the DWP, as it up to you, and does not and never will effect me.

 

No they are not going to extradite anyone, but if you are fined and have to pay back the overpayment, they will just stop the pension payments. You seem to need the yearly increase, and even winter allowance, so would a prolonged stoppage not affect your way off life.

 

You seem to think your are untouchable on this issue and I hope that confidence is justified.

 

Claiming that jail is not bad, is the real nonsense, and maybe reflects your real character.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

I've removed a dozen or so posts, mostly by the same member. Some were in a very large typeface, some were personal attacks, some were of a stalking nature, others were inflammatory and trolling nature.

 

Think very carefully before you make your next post. Other posters wishing to post in a similar fashion should also reconsider their actions. 

[MangoKorat]

9 hours ago, Georgealbert said:

The legality of the rule, dates back to the history of the state pension.

 

1925 -  Contributory pensions are first introduced and only payable in Great Britain, Northern Ireland and Isle Of Man.

 

1927 - The Contributory Pension Act 1929 Which allowed pensions to be paid in HM’s Dominions

 

1946 - The National Insurance Act 1946 Regulations which contained a provision for disqualification for payments of benefits abroad.

 

1948 - The pension is first increased, but these increases are not paid to people abroad.

 

1955 - The National Insurance(residence and persons abroad) Regulations ,which allowed the pension to be payable anywhere in the world, but not uprated.

These provisions have been carried over in all new acts and regulations since, and it is only where there is negotiated reciprocal agreements in place, that allows for uprating  

 

Thanks for the history but that doesn't make it right - it only makes it legal as things stand.  Other unfair laws have been challenged and overturned. In my opinion, the law preventing those living abroad (in most countries) is morally illegal.

 

I'm struggling to understand the reasoning behind this rule.  The UK allows increases to be paid to residents living in a country that has a reciprocal agreement.  I'm struggling to understand how having such an agreement would benefit the UK. A Thai citizen, living in the UK would only get a pension corresponding to the amount of any contributions they have made.

 

I'm not due for a pension yet but over the last few years I've cost the NHS a significant amount due to illness, it is also likely that I will need further treatment in the years to come which, if I'm living in Thailand, I will have to fund myself.  It is a given that as people get older, they are more liable to illness and therefore their cost to the country is higher. The UK population is aging so that position is likely to get worse.  People living abroad and paying for their own treatment don't cause the UK to incur those costs and are therefore likley to actually save the UK money.

 

Were we talking about a private pension with a provision for increases over time, there would be no way a private pension provider would be allowed to refuse such increases to a person choosing to live abroad.

 

The amount you pay in determines the amount you get out - that should not be any different for people living abroad.