scottiejohn Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Just now, beautifulthailand99 said: Just cause would be that they are suspected (subject to additional checks of proof required from the claimant) of overpayment of monies. All of these issues will be addressed and sorted out at the design phase of the system. A Statutory Instruments or instruments can be used to amend current legislation to deal with any legal anomalies and will no doubt be part of that process. You are talking about what may happen in the future not present! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treetops Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, scottiejohn said: That new law, which has been passed, is to do with the Tax man (not DWP) and undeclared side income above 1,000 Pounds and nothing to do with passports etc! Both links I posted specifically mention the DWP. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beautifulthailand99 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 4 minutes ago, scottiejohn said: Wrong! Only you "can fairly assume from the evidence presented to date that" and even then you are wrong. Look at the UK laws as they stand. Your crystal ball is no better than anyone else's! Read my links in detail. It's all there I worked in designing computer system for government and was involved in senior level meetings at the design and build phases of such systems so have a detailed knowledge of the process and ministerial initiatives and drivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beautifulthailand99 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 3 minutes ago, scottiejohn said: You are talking about what may happen in the future not present! I have never said that I have always be clear that this is work in progress. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottiejohn Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 minute ago, treetops said: Both links I posted specifically mention the DWP. Where are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treetops Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Just now, scottiejohn said: Where are they? Page 1, post 10 in this thread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beautifulthailand99 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 I wouldn't worry about this - what will be will be and is in the future anyway. No one will be going to prison, but being aware this will probably happen at some point in the near future is no bad thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottiejohn Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Just now, beautifulthailand99 said: this is work in progress. A work in progress is not a present day law. As I said earlier your crystal ball is no better than mine. Can we please stick to the law and systems in place today, Not "What If's" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottiejohn Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 3 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said: Read my links in detail. It's all there I worked in designing computer system for government and was involved in senior level meetings at the design and build phases of such systems so have a detailed knowledge of the process and ministerial initiatives and drivers. To the best of your knowledge can you state that the DWP and HMRC systems are totally compatible and that they can legally access each other's data bases without a legal reasonable cause? If so I would love to see some evidence! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post beautifulthailand99 Posted February 27 Popular Post Share Posted February 27 Here's the progress of the enabling Bill, it's in the Lords now at Committee stage. https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3430 I was right about Statutory Instruments https://publiclawproject.org.uk/resources/how-the-new-data-bill-waters-down-protections/ Automation and AI are playing a more and more significant role in how government makes decisions and carries out its functions, from education to healthcare, to immigration and welfare. Data protection laws are currently some of the most powerful tools available to protect individuals against unfair uses of data and technology, and to enable people to find out how their data is being used and how decisions about them are made. This Bill will weaken some of those vital data protection laws The Bill gives the Secretary of State broad powers to amend our data protection laws via statutory instrument, without adequate scrutiny by Parliament. The wide powers given to the Secretary of State in Clauses 5, 6, 12 and 114 should be removed or narrowed. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beautifulthailand99 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 6 minutes ago, scottiejohn said: To the best of your knowledge can you state that the DWP and HMRC systems are totally compatible and that they can legally access each other's data bases without a legal reasonable cause? If so I would love to see some evidence! I didn't say that - information can be exchanged via the sharing of bespoke files on an ad hoc basis. The Bill now at the Lords stage gives the required legal authority to enact that.Government systems have long had common data sets such as name, NI Number and date of birth to match up data. Edited February 27 by beautifulthailand99 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgealbert Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) The amendment to the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill, which would compel banks and building societies to monitor all benefit/pension claimants’ accounts.has made its way through the Commons and moved on to the Lords, it is not final yet and we will have to wait to see what goes into law. It is everyone’s own choice to tell or not tell the DWP, and accept any repercussions, if any ever occurs. It should not/ need not be debated on an open forum, which ever side of the fence you sit. Other people’s choices really are none of my business. In the past, I knew two people, on extended stays, who had their pensions and pensions credit stopped, because they had been informed on. They were required to attend a local DWP interview. On returning home, they were interviewed, pensions and pensions credit payments restored, stopped back payments were paid in full and no fine. Both have only every returned for short breaks since. Edited February 27 by Georgealbert 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottiejohn Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 5 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said: Here's the progress of the enabling Bill, it's in the Lords now at Committee stage. https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3430 I was right about Statutory Instruments https://publiclawproject.org.uk/resources/how-the-new-data-bill-waters-down-protections/ Automation and AI are playing a more and more significant role in how government makes decisions and carries out its functions, from education to healthcare, to immigration and welfare. Data protection laws are currently some of the most powerful tools available to protect individuals against unfair uses of data and technology, and to enable people to find out how their data is being used and how decisions about them are made. This Bill will weaken some of those vital data protection laws The Bill gives the Secretary of State broad powers to amend our data protection laws via statutory instrument, without adequate scrutiny by Parliament. The wide powers given to the Secretary of State in Clauses 5, 6, 12 and 114 should be removed or narrowed. And nothing has changed since 6 Dec 2023 even according to your links! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post MangoKorat Posted February 27 Popular Post Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, Tropicalevo said: Sorry if I am in the minority, but if you are mainly living overseas and collecting pension increases then you are breaking the law. Why is this a worry to law abiding people? I can't speak for others and I'm not receiving a pension but if I was, I would have no quarms about avoiding being denied any inreases in the state pension. Why? Because its totally unfair and there is no justification for it. People visit doctors and hospitals far more as they get older so cost the UK more money. Those outside Thailand are not accessing those doctors and hospital services so in fact, they cost the country far less than someone resident in the UK. Why should you not be entitled to the same pension as everyone else, just because you live abroad? Did you not pay in the same as everyone else? 1 1 1 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottiejohn Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Just now, Georgealbert said: The amendment to the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill, which would compel banks and building societies to monitor all benefit/pension claimants’ accounts.has made its way through the Commons and moved on to the Lords, it is not final yet and we will have to wait to see what goes into law. It is everyone’s own choice to tell or not tell the DWP, and accept any repercussions, if any ever occurs. It should not/ need not to be debated on an open forum, which ever side of the fence you sit. Other people’s choice are none of my business. In the past, I knew two people, on extended stays, who had their pension and pension credit stopped, because they had been informed on. They were required to attend a local DWP interview. On returning home, they were interviewed, pension and pension credit payments restored, stopped back payments were paid and no fine. Both have only every returned for short breaks since. And were they perchance making any other claims/benefits other than the basic pension? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottiejohn Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 7 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said: I didn't say that - information can be exchanged via the sharing of bespoke files on an ad hoc basis. The Bill now at the Lords stage gives the required legal authority to enact that.Government systems have long had common data sets such as name, NI Number and date of birth to match up data. So you agree that there is NO automatic digital exchange between the DWP/HMRC! They can of course share ANY information by whatever means are at their disposal but they CANNOT do it on the whim of a clerk! They must have just legal cause etc! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beautifulthailand99 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) For the record I would try and avoid it if I could and the penalties if found would only equal what I had been overpaid anyway. That said, the old wing and a prayer system is giving way to an all seeing IT monolith, which will make that approach impossible sometime in the near future. And that's without adding the Thai taxation system that might require you to register with Thailand for tax purposes data that would be shared with the UK to avoid double taxation. Now that's a real kicker ! Edited February 27 by beautifulthailand99 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MangoKorat Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 7 minutes ago, scottiejohn said: They must have just legal cause etc! And how many times do the authorities follow what just cause means? A parallel would be the powers that the UK police were given to stop and check any vehicle without reason. They had that before anyway because in reality they just used to say that you were driving erratically. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transam Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 11 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said: For the record I would try and avoid it if I could and the penalties if found would only equal what I had been overpaid anyway. That said, the old wing and a prayer system is giving way to an all seeing IT monolith, which will make that approach impossible sometime in the near future. And that's without adding the Thai taxation system that might require you to register with Thailand for tax purposes data that would be shared with the UK to avoid double taxation. Now that's a real kicker ! Reminds me of the introduction of an automatic 100 quid fine if your tax return was late, all done by a computor for the 😱 to pay and sort out......... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post MangoKorat Posted February 27 Popular Post Share Posted February 27 11 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said: For the record I would try and avoid it if I could and the penalties if found would only equal what I had been overpaid anyway. That said, the old wing and a prayer system is giving way to an all seeing IT monolith, which will make that approach impossible sometime in the near future. And that's without adding the Thai taxation system that might require you to register with Thailand for tax purposes data that would be shared with the UK to avoid double taxation. Now that's a real kicker ! Well look, most of us have relatives in the UK and I for one would want to return from time to time to see my kids and grandkids. All you have to do to gain access to any pension increases is to return to the UK from time to time and register at a relative's address. I've heard it said that you have to stay 6 months to be able to do that but I'm not sure that's correct. I heard the same information relating to accessing UK healthcare if you've been abroad. The truth in fact, is that all you have to do is provide proof of a UK address - no 6 month requirement. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgealbert Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 32 minutes ago, scottiejohn said: And were they perchance making any other claims/benefits other than the basic pension? Yes, pension credit they admitted. I did not ask them anything further, just know a few people had to help them buy the flight back. 555555 Edited February 27 by Georgealbert 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottiejohn Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 10 minutes ago, MangoKorat said: And how many times do the authorities follow what just cause means? UK banks cannot legally disclose any personal details to outside authorities unless covered by a legal injunction/requirement. There are many legal frameworks where a person's transactions are transmitted to outside authorities; e.g. 10,000 Pound overseas TX, FACTA, banned/restricted country TX's (IRAN/Russia etc) and other sanctions are obvious ones. These are covered in law/acts of Parliament! BUT no individual or UK authority can get access to a UK personal account without court sanctioned authorisation. Business accounts are a bit different! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottiejohn Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 3 minutes ago, Georgealbert said: Yes, pension credit That is probably how they got caught/penalised! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fugitive Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 12 minutes ago, MangoKorat said: I heard the same information relating to accessing UK healthcare if you've been abroad. The truth in fact, is that all you have to do is provide proof of a UK address - no 6 month requirement. When checking-in for an outpatient appointment at my NHS hospital the check-in machine asks if you have been living in the UK for the previous 6 months? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transam Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 8 minutes ago, MangoKorat said: Well look, most of us have relatives in the UK and I for one would want to return from time to time to see my kids and grandkids. All you have to do to gain access to any pension increases is to return to the UK from time to time and register at a relative's address. I've heard it said that you have to stay 6 months to be able to do that but I'm not sure that's correct. I heard the same information relating to accessing UK healthcare if you've been abroad. The truth in fact, is that all you have to do is provide proof of a UK address - no 6 month requirement. On your pension claim form it says you must tell them wherever you are, I think because the UK pension is classed as a benefit, it is not like a private pension, which is how they get away with paying increases.. If LOS had a reciprocal agreement, we would get them.. You can tell them if you're going back on holiday for 2 weeks, you will get a 2 week top up... I know a bloke who is going back to UK for 6 months to get the latest pension and then creep back here, but with all that's going on now, he may do that for nothing..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgealbert Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 7 minutes ago, scottiejohn said: That is probably how they got caught/penalised! They were both informed on, by others who know them in Thailand. Then they were requested to go to the local office for interview and just ignored it, to all payments were stopped. Never really penalised. Edited February 27 by Georgealbert 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgealbert Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 5 minutes ago, scottiejohn said: UK banks cannot legally disclose any personal details to outside authorities unless covered by a legal injunction/requirement. There are many legal frameworks where a person's transactions are transmitted to outside authorities; e.g. 10,000 Pound overseas TX, FACTA, banned/restricted country TX's (IRAN/Russia etc) and other sanctions are obvious ones. These are covered in law/acts of Parliament! BUT no individual or UK authority can get access to a UK personal account without court sanctioned authorisation. Business accounts are a bit different! Think the new bill is giving the legal requirement for bank details to be shared. “Amendments to the 2022 Data Protection and Digital Information (DPDI) Bill will potentially grant the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) powers to snoop on the bank accounts of benefits recipients, ostensibly to clampdown on fraud” https://positivemoney.org/2024/02/how-the-government-is-spying-on-our-bank-accounts/ 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MangoKorat Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 3 minutes ago, scottiejohn said: UK banks cannot legally disclose any personal details to outside authorities unless covered by a legal injunction/requirement. There are many legal frameworks where a person's transactions are transmitted to outside authorities; e.g. 10,000 Pound overseas TX, FACTA, banned/restricted country TX's (IRAN/Russia etc) and other sanctions are obvious ones. These are covered in law/acts of Parliament! BUT no individual or UK authority can get access to a UK personal account without court sanctioned authorisation. Business accounts are a bit different! I'm not about to get into an argument with you about this but I don't agree - having been subject to a tax investigation a few years back, I know that HMRC can look into your bank account. Now, with the AEOI provisions, they can also request details of your bank account in Thailand. The information below would appear to suggest that you are a little out of date on the law. HMRC it appears, can give itself permission to access your bank details through a third party notice, in particular the Financial Institution Notice granted by a HMRC 'authorised officer'. https://sterlinxglobal.com/non-compliant-to-uk-tax-laws/ I am under the impression that under the new proposals currently passing through Parliament, the DWP will be able to access your information through the HMRC. Those powers are granted to access information of those that claim they are 'non-compliant' with UK tax laws. Its inconceivable that such powers do not also exist for 'tax compliant' citizens. However, let's say you are correct and a court order is required, how many times do you think a court would actually refuse access? Its a given that however they choose to do it, your details will be revealed. Just about all countries are joining together these days under the guise of 'Anti Money Laundering'. Privacy is the realm of the rich but even that's not guaranteed these days. There's a few very angry Russian Oligarchs out there at the moment who's bank accounts have been frozen. Swiss bank accounts no longer have the privacy they used to - IT is making life very difficult for both those who simply wish to keep their details private and those who wish to do the same for tax avoidance/criminal purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottiejohn Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 6 minutes ago, MangoKorat said: I'm not about to get into an argument with you about this but I don't agree - having been subject to a tax investigation a few years back, I know that HMRC can look into your bank account. Now, with the AEOI provisions, they can also request details of your bank account in Thailand. The information below would appear to suggest that you are a little out of date on the law. HMRC it appears, can give itself permission to access your bank details through a third party notice, in particular the Financial Institution Notice granted by a HMRC 'authorised officer'. https://sterlinxglobal.com/non-compliant-to-uk-tax-laws/ I am under the impression that under the new proposals currently passing through Parliament, the DWP will be able to access your information through the HMRC. Those powers are granted to access information of those that claim they are 'non-compliant' with UK tax laws. Its inconceivable that such powers do not also exist for 'tax compliant' citizens. However, let's say you are correct and a court order is required, how many times do you think a court would actually refuse access? Its a given that however they choose to do it, your details will be revealed. Just about all countries are joining together these days under the guise of 'Anti Money Laundering'. Privacy is the realm of the rich but even that's not guaranteed these days. There's a few very angry Russian Oligarchs out there at the moment who's bank accounts have been frozen. Swiss bank accounts no longer have the privacy they used to - IT is making life very difficult for both those who simply wish to keep their details private and those who wish to do the same for tax avoidance/criminal purposes. Of course they can gain legal access to a private banks account but ONLY after an individual legal review if a private account! As you said "having been subject to a tax investigation a few years back, I know that HMRC can look into your bank account" They must have had due cause! IF NOT SUE THEM! PS; Did you sue? Edited February 27 by scottiejohn PS added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottiejohn Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 8 minutes ago, MangoKorat said: I am under the impression that under the new proposals currently passing through Parliament, the DWP will be able to access your information through the HMRC. Please read my posts above! They can only do so on an individual legal case! It is NOT a blanket "get everyone" law/act! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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