Israel is at War - General discussion (pt3)

[WDSmart]

59 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It's no secret. Israel's war goals in response to the barbaric attack on October 7 include both getting the hostages back AND crushing Hamas. Both goals are very difficult. 

Israel's (the extreme, right-wing, nationalistic faction whose name I'm forbidden to use) goal all along, well before Oct 7, was to completely subdue any Palestinian efforts to stop them from completely dominating this land. I hope they do get their hostages back. I think all they'd have to do is offer a ceasefire, but I know there would be other conditions on which both sides might not agree. I wouldn't mind them "crushing" Hamas, but not to the extent that they are conducting a virtual genocide of the Palestinians. 

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Israel's (the extreme, right-wing, nationalistic faction whose name I'm forbidden to use) goal all along, well before Oct 7, was to completely subdue any Palestinian efforts to stop them from completely dominating this land. I hope they do get their hostages back. I think all they'd have to do is offer a ceasefire, but I know there would be other conditions on which both sides might not agree. I wouldn't mind them "crushing" Hamas, but not to the extent that they are conducting a virtual genocide of the Palestinians. 

You conveniently fail to mention that the stated goal of Hamas is genocide of Jews. So Israel is supposed to just cave? It's funny not ha ha to me. Jew haters attack Jews for being too passive as in WW2 and they also attack when Jews finally realized they needed serious military power to survive as in Israel.

As the saying goes:

“If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.”

Golda Meir

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Where should the Israelis go ?

Maybe Caucasian New Zealanders and Israelis could both get off other peoples land and go and live together somewhere in some new country  ?

That ship has sailed. In the  movement before the founding of Israel there were other geographical options discussed and considered. Obviously Israel was most ideal because of the ancient bond between the Jewish people and the land of Israel (Next Year In Jerusalem) but the core idea was a political self determination liberation movement where Jews could finally avoid the cyclical persecution in the diaspora. So it could have been somewhere else at least theoretically. But Israel exists now and isn't going anywhere.

[Jeff the Chef]

29 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Where should the Israelis go ?

Maybe Caucasian New Zealanders and Israelis could both get off other peoples land and go and live together somewhere in some new country  ?

Anywhere they like, there are plenty of countries around the world who will accept law abiding citizens, of any religion.

[WDSmart]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You conveniently fail to mention that the stated goal of Hamas is genocide of Jews. So Israel is supposed to just cave? It's funny not ha ha to me. Jew haters attack Jews for being too passive as in WW2 and they also attack when Jews finally realized they needed serious military power to survive. 

I've never heard that the stated goal of Hamas is "genocide of Jews," but if you define "genocide" as the expulsion of a people from the land on which they are living, then I would agree with that. of course, I would say that is the stated goal of the right-wing, nationalistic faction of the Israelis (whose name I am forbidden to use here.) 

No, Israel is not supposed to just "cave." I have repeatedly recommended they enter into talks with the Palestinians to work out a deal for either a one-state or two-state solution. And, I agree they should strike back at any attackers, but not to the degree of causing such civilian casualties as they have done and continue to do in Gaza.

Israel has been anything but passive during the last 85 years. They have been very active in invading and seizing control of Palestinian land. Many, but not all of these actions, I admit, have been the result of Palestinian attacks on them, but nonetheless, they have not been "passive."

 

[WDSmart]

13 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

That ship has sailed. In the  movement before the founding of Israel there were other geographical options discussed and considered. Obviously Israel was most ideal because of the ancient bond between the Jewish people and the land of Israel (Next Year In Jerusalem) but the core idea was a political self determination liberation movement where Jews could finally avoid the cyclical persecution in the diaspora. So it could have been somewhere else at least theoretically. But Israel exists now and isn't going anywhere.

"But Israel exists now and isn't going anywhere." I agree, but hopefully, it will not do so at the cost of the genocide of the Palestinian Arabs. I hope this ends up in some kind of two-state agreement in which both groups can agree to live, if not together, at least side-by-side. But, I know there will be bitterness and hate on both sides for a long, long time.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

"But Israel exists now and isn't going anywhere." I agree, but hopefully, it will not do so at the cost of the genocide of the Palestinian Arabs. I hope this ends up in some kind of two-state agreement in which both groups can agree to live, if not together, at least side-by-side. But, I know there will be bitterness and hate on both sides for a long, long time.

Again NEITHER side wants a two state solution.

A one state solution means the end of Israel. 

Don't ask me what a solution could be because looking at the history nobody has come close to cracking that nut.

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I've never heard that the stated goal of Hamas is "genocide of Jews," but if you define "genocide" as the expulsion of a people from the land on which they are living, then I would agree with that. of course, I would say that is the stated goal of the right-wing, nationalistic faction of the Israelis (whose name I am forbidden to use here.) 

No, Israel is not supposed to just "cave." I have repeatedly recommended they enter into talks with the Palestinians to work out a deal for either a one-state or two-state solution. And, I agree they should strike back at any attackers, but not to the degree of causing such civilian casualties as they have done and continue to do in Gaza.

Israel has been anything but passive during the last 85 years. They have been very active in invading and seizing control of Palestinian land. Many, but not all of these actions, I admit, have been the result of Palestinian attacks on them, but nonetheless, they have not been "passive."

 

You haven't heard? How convenient for you.

Do you think it helps your credibility as an obvious Israel demonizer to act so dumb?

 

 

Hamas’s Genocidal Intentions Were Never a Secret - The Atlantic

Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology

A close read of Hamas’s founding documents clearly shows its intentions.

[Nick Carter icp]

11 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Anywhere they like, there are plenty of countries around the world who will accept law abiding citizens, of any religion.

 

   So you are in favour of genocide when it happens to Jews  but you strongly oppose genocide when its being done by Jews ?

   Its perfectly acceptable to remove Jews from the land , but its genocide when non Jews are removed from the land ?

[Neeranam]

11 hours ago, Jingthing said:

So Israel is supposed to just cave?

No, they only have to share the land, it's not rocket science. 

[Neeranam]

11 hours ago, Jingthing said:

You haven't heard? How convenient for you.

Do you think it helps your credibility as an obvious Israel demonizer to act so dumb?

 

 

Hamas’s Genocidal Intentions Were Never a Secret - The Atlantic

Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology

A close read of Hamas’s founding documents clearly shows its intentions.

I wonder why Netanyahu supported funding an organization whose ideology was to kill all Jews, as if you didn't know. 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

I wonder why Netanyahu supported funding Hamas, as if you didn't know. 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

 

   That report was published on 8 th October 2023 and was discussed at the time of publication . you can see the comments if you go to the thread where it was discussed .

  ( Hamas were seen as a better alternative than the PLO and Fatah, at the time when Israel gave support)

[Jingthing]

14 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

No, they only have to share the land, it's not rocket science. 

Meaningless statement without being more specific.

[ozimoron]

 

[Bkk Brian]

They hit the jackpot at Shifa Hospital again. 90 dead terrorists so far. Worrying how quickly the terrorists re occupied it after the previous raid but hospitals are a favourite refuge for the cowards to set up base and command centers.

 

IDF says it has killed some 90 terrorists so far in Shifa hospital raid

The IDF says troops have so far killed more than 90 Hamas gunmen during its ongoing raid at Gaza City’s Shifa Hospital.

The operation, which began early Monday morning, is being carried out by the Navy’s Shayetet 13 commando unit, the 401st Armored Brigade, and other forces.

“Over the past day, the troops have eliminated terrorists and located weapons in the hospital area, while preventing harm to civilians, patients, medical teams, and medical equipment,” the military says in a statement.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-it-has-killed-some-90-terrorists-so-far-in-shifa-hospital-raid/

[thaibeachlovers]

23 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  That can happened once Gazans have been moved off the land and Jews are in the majority .

Then we can have our one state Jewish majority land of Israel

That is the solution  

The problem with that is that the Gazans own the land they live on. Israelis have zero rights to it. It is not part of the land allocated to israel in 1948, ergo israelis have no business controlling or invading or blockading it, and if it wasn't for the American veto in the UN, they would have been forced to stop thinking they have a right to any say over it, long ago.

 

Are you aware that you are advocating for ethnic cleansing, which is a crime against humanity?

 

Are you aware that you are advocating for apartheid? If you are wanting one state with full and equal rights for all Arabs living in it, get back to me on that, but I doubt you do.

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Anywhere they like, there are plenty of countries around the world who will accept law abiding citizens, of any religion.

The poster you quoted seems to have a bee in his bonnet about New Zealand, else why mention it in a thread about Gaza?

He doesn't seem to know much about it either.

[Nick Carter icp]

12 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The problem with that is that the Gazans own the land they live on. Israelis have zero rights to it. It is not part of the land allocated to israel in 1948, ergo israelis have no business controlling or invading or blockading it, and if it wasn't for the American veto in the UN, they would have been forced to stop thinking they have a right to any say over it, long ago.

 

Are you aware that you are advocating for ethnic cleansing, which is a crime against humanity?

 

Are you aware that you are advocating for apartheid? If you are wanting one state with full and equal rights for all Arabs living in it, get back to me on that, but I doubt you do.

 

  Drastic action needs to be taken .

Land ownership can easily be changed .

Its not going to be pretty , but it needs to be done for a more peaceful World 

[Nick Carter icp]

11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The poster you quoted seems to have a bee in his bonnet about New Zealand, else why mention it in a thread about Gaza?

He doesn't seem to know much about it either.

 

  I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of New Zealanders telling Israelis that they shouldn't be taking other peoples land , when Israeli forefathers lived on the land of Israel, but non Maori New Zealanders fore fathers didn't live on the land of New Zealand 

[WDSmart]

Who's surprised at this? 

Israel’s far-right wants to move Palestinians out of Gaza. Its ideas are gaining attention.
Israel’s far-right wants to move Palestinians out of Gaza. Its ideas are gaining attention | CNN

[WDSmart]

5 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of New Zealanders telling Israelis that they shouldn't be taking other peoples land , when Israeli forefathers lived on the land of Israel, but non Maori New Zealanders fore fathers didn't live on the land of New Zealand 

Speaking as someone from the USA, who you have also called a hypocrite, it was wrong then, and it is wrong now.

[Wobblybob]

4 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Speaking as someone from the USA, who you have also called a hypocrite, it was wrong then, and it is wrong now.

Nick made a good point, you are accusing others of which you yourself are guilty! 

[Nick Carter icp]

12 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Speaking as someone from the USA, who you have also called a hypocrite, it was wrong then, and it is wrong now.

 

   Hypothetically, if an Israeli was telling you to get off American Indian land and go live somewhere else, what would your reply be ?

[WDSmart]

6 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Nick made a good point, you are accusing others of which you yourself are guilty! 

Nick and you don't make good points; you just search for excuses for Israel's inexcusable devastation of Gaza. The excuse you are now trying to use to justify this merciless killing is, "Well, your forefathers did it, so we can do it now, too." And what I'm saying is that when my forefathers did something similar, it was wrong, and it's still wrong now. 

[WDSmart]

2 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Hypothetically, if an Israeli was telling you to get off American Indian land and go live somewhere else, what would your reply be ?

If an Israeli told me to do anything right now, I couldn't post on this forum what my exact reply would be, but the gist of it would be what I've been saying all along. My forefathers committed genocide. It was wrong then, but that was over 500 years ago.  You, (the Israeli), are committing genocide now. It is wrong now. Stop it! 

[Wobblybob]

5 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Nick and you don't make good points; you just search for excuses for Israel's inexcusable devastation of Gaza. The excuse you are now trying to use to justify this merciless killing is, "Well, your forefathers did it, so we can do it now, too." And what I'm saying is that when my forefathers did something similar, it was wrong, and it's still wrong now. 

Strawman argument!

[WDSmart]

4 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

11 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Nick and you don't make good points; you just search for excuses for Israel's inexcusable devastation of Gaza. The excuse you are now trying to use to justify this merciless killing is, "Well, your forefathers did it, so we can do it now, too." And what I'm saying is that when my forefathers did something similar, it was wrong, and it's still wrong now. 

Strawman argument!

Why did you classify my argument as "It was wrong then, and still wrong now" as a "strawman argument"?

"A strawman is a fallacious argument that distorts an opposing stance in order to make it easier to attack."
Strawman Arguments: What They Are and How to Counter Them – Effectiviology

[Nick Carter icp]

13 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

If an Israeli told me to do anything right now, I couldn't post on this forum what my exact reply would be, but the gist of it would be what I've been saying all along. My forefathers committed genocide. It was wrong then, but that was over 500 years ago.  You, (the Israeli), are committing genocide now. It is wrong now. Stop it! 

 

   The Israeli would ask you when you are giving your stolen  land back, "You first" .

Anyway, best to get back on topic , you can get the last post in if you want though 

[Wobblybob]

2 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Why did you classify my argument as "It was wrong then, and still wrong now" as a "strawman argument"?

"A strawman is a fallacious argument that distorts an opposing stance in order to make it easier to attack."
Strawman Arguments: What They Are and How to Counter Them – Effectiviology

You tried baiting us by saying that Nick and myself don't make good points, well it was pointed out to yourself that you are accusing Israel of exactly the same thing of what your ancestors have done, and by definition hypocritical! 

[WDSmart]

1 minute ago, Wobblybob said:

You tried baiting us by saying that Nick and myself don't make good points, well it was pointed out to yourself that you are accusing Israel of exactly the same thing of what your ancestors have done, and by definition hypocritical! 

I am not hypocritical. I have said over and over again that what my forefathers did 400+ years ago was genocide and wrong. Now I am telling you that what Israel is doing now is genocide and wrong.

 

What you are doing is like telling someone who admits his father was a thief that it is now okay for you (Israel) to steal. It's just a crazy argument, trying to deflect the charge of genocide from Israel by bringing up the success of past genocides.