US delegation leaves Saudi Arabia early over kippah row

[Social Media]

 

A diplomatic visit intended to promote international religious freedom took an unexpected turn as a US delegation abruptly ended their trip to Saudi Arabia after a member was asked to remove his Jewish head covering, known as a kippah.

 

The United States Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) revealed on Monday that their delegation, including USCIRF chair Rabbi Abraham Cooper and vice-chair Rev Frederick Davie, was visiting the historic town of Diriyah near Riyadh, a UNESCO world heritage site. However, the visit took a troubling turn when Rabbi Cooper was asked by officials to remove his kippah, despite prior approval from the Saudi ministry of foreign affairs.

 

In response to the request, Rabbi Cooper expressed his refusal, emphasizing that denying access to a heritage site based on religious identity was unacceptable, especially given the site's significance in promoting unity and progress. He highlighted the irony of the situation, noting that Saudi Arabia is currently undergoing a period of transformation under its 2030 vision, aimed at encouraging positive change.

 

The USCIRF condemned the incident, noting the significance of such actions occurring to a representative of an American government agency dedicated to promoting religious freedom. Vice-chair Rev Frederick Davie described the incident as "stunning and painful," contradicting Saudi Arabia's official narrative of progress and greater religious freedom.

 

The incident comes at a time of heightened tensions between Saudi Arabia and Israel, particularly in the aftermath of the war in Gaza. Additionally, it raises questions about US efforts to promote normalization of ties between Saudi Arabia and Israel, highlighting the complexities of diplomatic relations in the region.

 

As the USCIRF delegation's visit was cut short due to the incident, it underscores the challenges and sensitivities surrounding religious freedom and diplomatic engagements in the Middle East. The response from the Saudi embassy in Washington to inquiries about the incident remains awaited, further highlighting the significance of the matter in diplomatic circles.

 

13.03.24

Source

 

[thaibeachlovers]

Having lived and worked in Saudi for years it doesn't surprise me that the dictat from above may not be upheld by those on the ground.

 

Perhaps the official that required the head covering to be removed was offended that a member of a religion currently blowing up thousands of fellow Arabs was shoving his religious identity into Muslim faces in a Muslim country.

 

When I was there, I doubt the Jews would have even been allowed into the country. Just having an israeli entry stamp in one's passport meant one could not enter Saudi.

Though they accepted that Christians were needed to run their institutions, any open display or practice of Christianity was forbidden.

[herfiehandbag]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Having lived and worked in Saudi for years it doesn't surprise me that the dictat from above may not be upheld by those on the ground.

 

Perhaps the official that required the head covering to be removed was offended that a member of a religion currently blowing up thousands of fellow Arabs was shoving his religious identity into Muslim faces in a Muslim country.

 

When I was there, I doubt the Jews would have even been allowed into the country. Just having an israeli entry stamp in one's passport meant one could not enter Saudi.

Though they accepted that Christians were needed to run their institutions, any open display or practice of Christianity was forbidden.

Even whilst happily playing in the sand pit of Northern Saudi Arabia one of the main preoccupations of the local authorities was the presence of any symbols of Christianity - I recall an incident when a young female soldier was grabbed by some official because she had a small gold crucifix around her neck, which was visible over her tee shirt. She knocked him down. The situation was resolved when Iraq made one of its periodic threats to raid across the border from Kuwait. All you could see looking south were Saudis legging it in the "Gucci" vehicles the US had given them!

[Chomper Higgot]

16 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Muslims being intolerant?

 

Well, knock me down with a feather 😆

Not an ounce of self reflection.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The Saudis spent a lot of effort removing any traces of female skin ( apart from faces ) from magazines ( with black marker pen ) and not allowing any reference to Christianity in music, so you can imagine my delight when a popular western singer's album ( on tape ) was found to have a song about Crusaders giving the locals a hiding. They obviously missed that one.

 

The female form, ads for booze, articles about Israel, articles about Saudi, and more, caused the censor to pull out the black pen. Sometimes the International Herald Tribune would have entire pages missing or simply wouldn't show up at all.

[JonnyF]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Not an ounce of self reflection.

 

Maybe read the OP and make a sensible retort if you disagree with my post. 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

 

Maybe read the OP and make a sensible retort if you disagree with my post. 

I read the OP.

 

I read your post too.

 

Lived and worked in Saudi, got the T-shirt.

 

 

[Jingthing]

10 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Having lived and worked in Saudi for years it doesn't surprise me that the dictat from above may not be upheld by those on the ground.

 

Perhaps the official that required the head covering to be removed was offended that a member of a religion currently blowing up thousands of fellow Arabs was shoving his religious identity into Muslim faces in a Muslim country.

 

When I was there, I doubt the Jews would have even been allowed into the country. Just having an israeli entry stamp in one's passport meant one could not enter Saudi.

Though they accepted that Christians were needed to run their institutions, any open display or practice of Christianity was forbidden.

A religion whatzit?!?

Is Christianity attempting to erase Ukraine?

[VocalNeal]

Another example of the US understanding of global affairs and international relations by taking a Jewish cleric on a diplomatic mission to a Muslim-majority country. Whatever next...🤔

Edited March 13 by VocalNeal

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

Another example of the US understanding of global affairs and international relations by taking a Jewish cleric on a diplomatic mission to a Muslim-majority country. Whatever next...🤔

You're suggesting that the USA should make its Jews invisible in a country so important to Abrahamic religions?

That's despicable.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

Another example of the US understanding of global affairs and international relations by taking a Jewish cleric on a diplomatic mission to a Muslim-majority country. Whatever next...🤔

There are Jews and definitely a Rabbi in Saudi Arabia.

[VocalNeal]

Just now, Jingthing said:

You're suggesting that the USA should make its Jews invisible in a country so important to Abrahamic religions?

That's despicable.

 

No I am suggesting the US should be a bit more polite, if you will, or sensitive to the local customs and habits of their hosts. I know this a a big ask for a country who travels the world with elbows out claiming everything should bend to their way of thinking and behaving. 

In a nutshell, it is called diplomacy. 

[VocalNeal]

11 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Maybe you do or maybe you don't realize how DISGUSTING what you said really is -- it's now "polite" to hide your Jews.

Wow. 

 

No one is talking about hiding Jews. There is current animosity in the world between Arabs/Muslims and Jews. Regardless of the cause, I would think it insensitive to take a Jewish cleric on a diplomatic mission to a devout Muslim country.

I notice that the US has a  Foreign Services Institute where they teach members or potential members of the US diplomatic service. Not mentioned in their curriculum. as far as I could see, is the teaching of " skill in dealing with people in difficult situations without upsetting or offending them"  In other words tact. Which is it not the definition of diplomacy. 

[JonnyF]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I read the OP.

 

I read your post too.

 

Lived and worked in Saudi, got the T-shirt.

 

 

 

Worked in Saudi? That's great. I holidayed in Turkey. Had a great time.

 

Of course neither of these fascinating facts has anything to do with the Muslim intolerance demonstrated in the OP.

[eisfeld]

12 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

 

No, that is what you are thinking and saying. I am suggesting that the US made a diplomatic gaff.

 

I'm pretty sure it's Saudi Arabia who made the gaff. The official purpose was to promote religious freedom and the Saudi foreign ministry approved. To then force someone to take off their religious clothing during the visit is frankly absurd.

 

It's like having a meeting on womens rights but then disallowing any women to speak. The behavior is in direct contradiction with the purpose.

[Chomper Higgot]

18 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Worked in Saudi? That's great. I holidayed in Turkey. Had a great time.

 

Of course neither of these fascinating facts has anything to do with the Muslim intolerance demonstrated in the OP.

No, but my experience of living and working in Saudi Arabia and other places across the Middle East persuade me of the fallacy in the statement 

 

 

4 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Muslims being intolerant?

 

Well, knock me down with a feather 😆

I experienced very little ‘intolerance’ in Saudi Arabia, indeed I see far more expressed on this forum than ever I came across anywhere in the Middle East.

 

Arabs are famously hospitable, the Saudis especially so. 

 

Perhaps it’s that ‘face to face’ thing.

 

 

Edited March 13 by Chomper Higgot

[Jingthing]

36 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

No, but my experience of living and working in Saudi Arabia and other places across the Middle East persuade me of the fallacy in the statement 

 

 

I experienced very little ‘intolerance’ in Saudi Arabia, indeed I see far more expressed on this forum than ever I came across anywhere in the Middle East.

 

Arabs are famously hospitable, the Saudis especially so. 

 

Perhaps it’s that ‘face to face’ thing.

 

 

That's interesting.

A Pinoy guy I knew told me about his experience being a guest worker in Saudi.

A typical Catholic Pinoy he carried a cross in his luggage.

It was found, confiscated, and he was beaten.

Religious tolerance, my ass!

[billd766]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

No you're saying hide the Jews.

No. YOU are saying he said that.

 

All the guy had to do was remove his kippah when he was requested to do so.

 

Common sense 101 and called compromise. If he was not prepared to compromise then he should have withdrawn from the trip.

 

Being Jewish does not make a person special or different from any other person except in their own minds and attitudes.

 

The other person can be of ANY race or religion and is entitled to the same respect, especially in their own country.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

No. YOU are saying he said that.

 

All the guy had to do was remove his kippah when he was requested to do so.

 

Common sense 101 and called compromise. If he was not prepared to compromise then he should have withdrawn from the trip.

 

Being Jewish does not make a person special or different from any other person except in their own minds and attitudes.

 

The other person can be of ANY race or religion and is entitled to the same respect, especially in their own country.

I call B.S.

The guy is a RELIGIOUS Jew.

Not just a Jew.

A RELIGIOUS Jew.

The meeting was about RELIGIOUS tolerance.

He was being forced to NOT be religious.

The gaffe is on the Saudi side.

[Jingthing]

Non Jews probably don't get this. but the truth is that Jew hating which is always with us, has spiked up dramatically recently and that of course includes Jews who aren't Israeli, don't relate to Israel, and don't live in Israel.

As a result Jews throughout the world are more and more voluntarily trying to make themselves less visible in order to avoid being attacked.

That's not always possible if your last name is Goldberg or you look like Woody Allen. 

So it is common for men who would normally want to wear a kippah to choose not to out of fear. In other words, to HIDE.

That is very sad that so many Jews feel the need to do that but that's the way it is. 

But if you're meeting on the topic of religious tolerance, it seems to me that would not be the time to hide your religious and ethnic identity.

Edited March 13 by Jingthing

[billd766]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I call B.S.

The guy is a RELIGIOUS Jew.

Not just a Jew.

A RELIGIOUS Jew.

The meeting was about RELIGIOUS tolerance.

He was being forced to NOT be religious.

The gaffe is on the Saudi side.

You can call it what you like.

 

In reality it is common sense.

 

That is the problem with ALL religions.

 

I know my rights and I will stick it out to the bitter end and this is the result. The trip was wasted by the religious INTOLERANCE of one person.

 

If you cannot see that, there is no hope for you.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

You can call it what you like.

 

In reality it is common sense.

 

That is the problem with ALL religions.

 

I know my rights and I will stick it out to the bitter end and this is the result. The trip was wasted by the religious INTOLERANCE of one person.

 

If you cannot see that, there is no hope for you.

An observant Jew wearing a kippah is NOT intolerance.

 

If you cannot see that, there is no hope for you.

[billd766]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

An observant Jew wearing a kippah is NOT intolerance.

 

If you cannot see that, there is no hope for you.

Why do you seem to believe that Jews are more important than any other people in the world, and that they should be given special treatment?

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

Why do you seem to believe that Jews are more important than any other people in the world, and that they should be given special treatment?

There it is.

Classic trope code.

Do you even get the odiousness of what you're saying?

Did I say that?

A Muslim woman in the west who normally covers should be forced not to cover to be polite?
If she doesn't, is she saying Muslims are more important?

I'm not much interested in further discussions with the obviously bigotted.

 

[NativeBob]

That US Rabbi over-reacted. kippa-shmippa, the way they wear it is a mockery of religious commandments. 

Have a look at google.com/images for "rabbi cooper" - he is one of those "pop rabbies". He shouldn't be there in the first place. Seriously

Nice mission! They had hotel booked, business class flights, personal expenses and pocket money. And screwed it all because some dude didn't follow request to remove whatever he has on his head.

Seems that it was planned since the beginning, no?

Edited March 13 by NativeBob

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, NativeBob said:

That US Rabbi over-reacted. kippa-shmippa, the way they wear it is a mockery of religious commandments. 

Have a look at google.com/images for "rabbi cooper" - he is one of those "pop rabbies". He shouldn't be there in the first place. Seriously

It was a diplomatic visit intended to promote international religious freedom and despite prior approval from the Saudi ministry of foreign affairs he was asked to remove it. I would not say that was over reacting.

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, NativeBob said:

That US Rabbi over-reacted. kippa-shmippa, the way they wear it is a mockery of religious commandments. 

Have a look at google.com/images for "rabbi cooper" - he is one of those "pop rabbies". He shouldn't be there in the first place. Seriously

Nice mission! They had hotel booked, business class flights, personal expenses and pocket money. And screwed it all because some dude didn't follow request to remove whatever he has on his head.

Seems that it was planned since the beginning, no?

Another one that never met a conspiracy theory that they didn't like.

[Chomper Higgot]

41 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

That's interesting.

A Pinoy guy I knew told me about his experience being a guest worker in Saudi.

A typical Catholic Pinoy he carried a cross in his luggage.

It was found, confiscated, and he was beaten.

Religious tolerance, my ass!

At odds with my experience of a priest visiting our camp to hold service and to on one occasion give the last rights to a dying South African.

 

Certainly at odds with the Christmas tree and decorations put up in our mixed Saudi Expat office.

 

 

[richard_smith237]

12 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Perhaps the official that required the head covering to be removed was offended that a member of a religion currently blowing up thousands of fellow Arabs was shoving his religious identity into Muslim faces in a Muslim country.

 

Then perhaps he should be reminded that more of his fellow Arabs and Muslims are blowing up more of his fellow Arabs and Muslims than any other ethnic, cultural or religious group and have been doing so for Millennia. 

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

No, but my experience of living and working in Saudi Arabia and other places across the Middle East persuade me of the fallacy in the statement 

 

 

I experienced very little ‘intolerance’ in Saudi Arabia, indeed I see far more expressed on this forum than ever I came across anywhere in the Middle East.

 

Arabs are famously hospitable, the Saudis especially so. 

 

Perhaps it’s that ‘face to face’ thing.

 

Did you take your Wife there and was she allowed to wear her own clothing and drive  ???...  

 

Relevance - it comes down to tolerance - We have just returned from Japan where my Wife was free to wear what she wanted and drive, go out to restaurants freely etc...   

 

Conversely, would she be allowed to drive in Saudi ? (i wouldn't want to anyway for other reasons, corruption and intolerance).

Would she be allowed to travel around on her own ? (i wouldn't want her to anyway for reasons of intolerance).

Would she be allowed to travel around without a head scarf ? (i wouldn't want her to anyway for reasons of intolerance).

 

 

While the Arabs are famously hospitable, just as many other nations, there is also a considerable lack of tolerance born of fear from totalitarian regimes which overpowers their underlying tolerance to anything other than puritanical religious conformity.