US delegation leaves Saudi Arabia early over kippah row

[billd766]

29 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

There it is.

Classic trope code.

Do you even get the odiousness of what you're saying?

Did I say that?

A Muslim woman in the west who normally covers should be forced not to cover to be polite?
If she doesn't, is she saying Muslims are more important?

I'm not much interested in further discussions with the obviously bigotted.

 

I do so enjoy it when posters claim I said things that I did not. You  are veering off topic as usual which is

 

"US delegation leaves Saudi Arabia early over kippah row"

 

So where did the Muslim woman in the west come from, and what has that got to do with the topic?

 

Now according to you I am a bigot, simply because I ask questions.

 

If you have no answer, then say so, and try not to insult the poster.

 

This is supposed to be a discussion forum where everybody is entitled to their opinion.

 

You don't seem to agree with that.

 

BTW going back to the topic, how much religious tolerance did the Jewish person show to his Saudi hosts?

[billd766]

31 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Another one that never met a conspiracy theory that they didn't like.

And you called me a bigot.

[Jingthing]

28 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

At odds with my experience of a priest visiting our camp to hold service and to on one occasion give the last rights to a dying South African.

 

Certainly at odds with the Christmas tree and decorations put up in our mixed Saudi Expat office.

 

 

Could be that my friend was lower class and was treated like a SLAVE by the Saudis.

 

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, billd766 said:

And you called me a bigot.

Did I?

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I do so enjoy it when posters claim I said things that I did not. You  are veering off topic as usual which is

 

"US delegation leaves Saudi Arabia early over kippah row"

 

So where did the Muslim woman in the west come from, and what has that got to do with the topic?

 

Now according to you I am a bigot, simply because I ask questions.

 

If you have no answer, then say so, and try not to insult the poster.

 

This is supposed to be a discussion forum where everybody is entitled to their opinion.

 

You don't seem to agree with that.

 

BTW going back to the topic, how much religious tolerance did the Jewish person show to his Saudi hosts?

I'm certain the rebbe would have been fine with any religious garb his Saudi hosts sported.

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I do so enjoy it when posters claim I said things that I did not. You  are veering off topic as usual which is

 

"US delegation leaves Saudi Arabia early over kippah row"

 

So where did the Muslim woman in the west come from, and what has that got to do with the topic?

 

Now according to you I am a bigot, simply because I ask questions.

 

If you have no answer, then say so, and try not to insult the poster.

 

This is supposed to be a discussion forum where everybody is entitled to their opinion.

 

You don't seem to agree with that.

 

BTW going back to the topic, how much religious tolerance did the Jewish person show to his Saudi hosts?

If you're so dense that you didn't get the comparison to the covered Muslim woman in the west, then really, let's stop talking. NO POINT!

[Captain Monday]

20 plus years ago I filled out the online pilot application to Emirates based in the so-called "tolerant" UAE.

 

In the personal details section there was a drop down window to select one's religion. I don't remember if it had none or atheism, probably not, but the drop down included every religion I have ever heard of to select.

From Buddhism to Christianity to literally Zoroastrianism.

 

Every Single Religion. Except one. 

Edited March 13 by Captain Monday

[NativeBob]

34 minutes ago, billd766 said:

BTW going back to the topic, how much religious tolerance did the Jewish person show to his Saudi hosts?

Zero. My guess it is bent-story, slightly "modified", not all truth was told and something is missing. 
On Google Images you can see that rabbi with all sorts of people, he must be uber-tolerant.

Something is missing indeed!

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

4 minutes ago, Captain Monday said:

20 plus years ago I filled out the online pilot application for Emirates based in the so called "tolerant" UAE.

 

In the personal detail section there was a drop down to select one's religion. I don't remember if it had none or atheism, probably not

but the drop down included every religion I have ever heard of from Buddhism to Christianity to literally  Zoroastrianism.

 

Every Single Religion, except one. 

 

Dubai now officially has a synagogue.

[Woof999]

3 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

 

No I am suggesting the US should be a bit more polite, if you will, or sensitive to the local customs and habits of their hosts. I know this a a big ask for a country who travels the world with elbows out claiming everything should bend to their way of thinking and behaving. 

In a nutshell, it is called diplomacy. 

 

Had the delegation not been from (and known by the Saudis to be from) United States Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) then you might have a point.

[Captain Monday]

50 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 

Dubai now officially has a synagogue.

 

I'm sure that fact has cured any remaining antisemitism that once existed among the Emirati population

 

Now I have met people who had worked at Emirates and I told them the story about the application. There have been a lot of American expat pilots for years in the Gulf and supposedly even one of the chief pilots there, which is an elite management position, was a Jewish American guy and "everyone knew".

 

So basically it was OK, if living as a closet case.  Do you understand how odious that sounded?

Edited March 13 by Captain Monday

[Jingthing]

52 minutes ago, NativeBob said:

Zero. My guess it is bent-story, slightly "modified", not all truth was told and something is missing. 
On Google Images you can see that rabbi with all sorts of people, he must be uber-tolerant.

Something is missing indeed!

Is spouting out conspiracy theories a virus?

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

1 hour ago, Captain Monday said:

 

I'm sure that fact has cured any remaining antisemitism that once existed among the Emirati population

 

Now I have met people who had worked at Emirates and I told them the story about the application. There have been a lot of American expat pilots for years in the Gulf and supposedly even one of the chief pilots there, which is an elite management position, was a Jewish American guy and "everyone knew".

 

So basically it was OK, if living as a closet case.  Do you understand how odious that sounded?

 

Since Emiratis are Arabs, and therefore semites themselves, it would be strange for them to be anti-semitic.

 

But in my time in the UAE I did hear Emiratis make anti-Jewish statements, so, yes, I understand the extent of their anti-Jewish sentiment and I find it deplorable. Many also have contempt for atheists.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Did you take your Wife there and was she allowed to wear her own clothing and drive  ???...  

 

Relevance - it comes down to tolerance - We have just returned from Japan where my Wife was free to wear what she wanted and drive, go out to restaurants freely etc...   

 

Conversely, would she be allowed to drive in Saudi ? (i wouldn't want to anyway for other reasons, corruption and intolerance).

Would she be allowed to travel around on her own ? (i wouldn't want her to anyway for reasons of intolerance).

Would she be allowed to travel around without a head scarf ? (i wouldn't want her to anyway for reasons of intolerance).

 

 

While the Arabs are famously hospitable, just as many other nations, there is also a considerable lack of tolerance born of fear from totalitarian regimes which overpowers their underlying tolerance to anything other than puritanical religious conformity.

 

 

I can assure you many women drive in Saudi Arabia, the Bedouin women in particular.

 

Its not at all income to see women in Jeddah (which is in Mecca Province) their faves and hair un covered.

 

Have you ever been to Saudi Arabia?

[richard_smith237]

26 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

3 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Did you take your Wife there and was she allowed to wear her own clothing and drive  ???...  

 

Relevance - it comes down to tolerance - We have just returned from Japan where my Wife was free to wear what she wanted and drive, go out to restaurants freely etc...   

 

Conversely, would she be allowed to drive in Saudi ? (i wouldn't want to anyway for other reasons, corruption and intolerance).

Would she be allowed to travel around on her own ? (i wouldn't want her to anyway for reasons of intolerance).

Would she be allowed to travel around without a head scarf ? (i wouldn't want her to anyway for reasons of intolerance).

 

 

While the Arabs are famously hospitable, just as many other nations, there is also a considerable lack of tolerance born of fear from totalitarian regimes which overpowers their underlying tolerance to anything other than puritanical religious conformity.

 

 

Expand  

I can assure you many women drive in Saudi Arabia, the Bedouin women in particular.

 

Its not at all income to see women in Jeddah (which is in Mecca Province) their faves and hair un covered.

 

Have you ever been to Saudi Arabia?

 

I'm also currently a resident of two Middle Eastern Countries (through work - and have held residency in 4 Middle East nations).

 

While KSA is certainly not as 'controlled' as Iran... you are painting it in a moderate light, and it most certainly is not moderate although there is some improvement...

... Female's Driving - still very much the rarity compared to the UAE and Qatar.

 

Freedom and tolerance are not words I'd associate with the nation, particularly when it comes to females, the freedom of religion and political views.

 

 

This example of the Rabbi being told / asked to remove his Kippah is a perfect example of the absense of tolerance nations such as KSA exhibit towards anything that does not conform to their hard-lines. 

 

Even though he have been given official approval under the guise of tolerance, the true lack of tolerance shone through and when this occurs at such an official level we can see how anything other than pure conformity is met with resistance. 

 

 

I may be negatively bias...  But I consider these regimes barbaric and toxic (and that goes for a lot of Middle Eastern Nations, even those considered far more moderate). 

 

 

 

Just feed a child water in public in the Middle of Ramadan and see the scorn and even people telling you off. 

Take a drink of water yourself in public and be prepared to be arrested. 

 

 

The most moderate I've seen are the food courts of major international shopping malls being 'fenced off' so those outside cannot see non-muslims eating in the day time...   because eating in front of someone of a different religion is such an offence, right ???

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 13 by richard_smith237

[Chomper Higgot]

8 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

I'm also currently a resident of two Middle Eastern Countries (through work - and have held residency in 4 Middle East nations).

 

While KSA is certainly not as 'controlled' as Iran... you are painting it in a moderate light, and it most certainly is not moderate although there is some improvement...

... Female's Driving - still very much the rarity compared to the UAE and Qatar.

 

Freedom and tolerance are not words I'd associate with the nation, particularly when it comes to females, the freedom of religion and political views.

 

 

This example of the Rabbi being told / asked to remove his Kippah is a perfect example of the absense of tolerance nations such as KSA exhibit towards anything that does not conform to their hard-lines. 

 

Even though he have been given official approval under the guise of tolerance, the true lack of tolerance shone through and when this occurs at such an official level we can see how anything other than pure conformity is met with resistance. 

 

 

I may be negatively bias...  But I consider these regimes barbaric and toxic (and that goes for a lot of Middle Eastern Nations, even those considered far more moderate). 

 

 

I’ve never dealt with ‘a regime’, I have however dealt with very many ordinary Saudis.

 

My experience is they are no less liberal than anyone else in any of the many countries I’ve lived and worked.

 

A couple of Saudis I’ve had the pleasure to know are amongst the most liberal and thoughtful people I’ve met anywhere.

Ate there problems, of course there are.

 

Is there any excuse to tar all Saudis/Arabs/Muslims with those problems, of course there is not.

 

 

 

Edited March 13 by Chomper Higgot

[richard_smith237]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

I’ve never dealt with ‘a regime’, I have however dealt with very many ordinary Saudis.

 

My experience is they are no less illiberal than anyone else in any of the many countries I’ve lived and worked.

 

A couple of Saudis I’ve had the pleasure to know are amongst the most liberal and thoughtful people I’ve met anywhere.

Ate there problems, of course there are.

 

Is there any excuse to tar all Saudis/Arabs/Muslims with those problems, of course there is not.

 

 

The locals I encounter in many of these nations (by that I mean nations which may be considered more 'hard line muslim') seem to live with an element of fear....

 

... I even see it in areas of Malaysia and Indonesia where guys seem to 'out do each other'  on the 'who is more devoted' front, they pray so hard and rub their head on the mat, over the years it leaves a dark patch of rough skin....     

 

OK.. so thats not Saudi, but I wanted to point out that while we are exposed to locals, they are very much a result of the regime they live within, its almost feels Orwellian. 

 

And no, I'm not tarring all with the same brush - but I am pointing out that in aggregate some nations have less tendency towards tolerance of those of other cultures, nations and religions....  I would most definitely classify KSA as one of those nations.

 

They also know their own reputation... which is why they are up to all the sport washing. 

Meet the same Saudi Arabian outside of KSA and they behave differently, more relaxed, more free.

Its the similar for the people of Iran...  Iranian friends hate their regime... but are frightened of it, they'll admit to acting differently within Iran to when they are outside of Iran.

 

Even from the more moderate Arab Nations (UAE, Qatar)... Count how many Abaya's & Shayla's (basically Burqas are worn by Arab females when boarding a flight in the Middle East to Thailand... then count how many come off the flight...  many have changed on the flight.. which is fine IMO, no criticism of that - but if they dislike their clothing so much, why are they all wearing it ????...  'cos they are frightened not to).

 

 

 

 

 

[billd766]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Did I?

 

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

There it is.

Classic trope code.

Do you even get the odiousness of what you're saying?

Did I say that?

A Muslim woman in the west who normally covers should be forced not to cover to be polite?
If she doesn't, is she saying Muslims are more important?

I'm not much interested in further discussions with the obviously bigotted.

 

I don't know, but there is your post.

[JonnyF]

12 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I experienced very little ‘intolerance’ in Saudi Arabia, indeed I see far more expressed on this forum than ever I came across anywhere in the Middle East.

 

Of course this isn't a Saudi problem. 

 

Any more than a fundamentalist Christian in Texas opposing abortion is a "Texas" problem.

 

Are the Muslims calling for the annihilation of Israel in London and calling for the rape of Jewish daughters a "London problem"? No, unfortunately we see these attitudes towards women, Jews, "Kafir" etc. across the Muslim world and where Muslims have formed communities in the West. The fact that Wokeists defend/deny such intolerance in the name of diversity is amusingly ironic.  

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/13/2024 at 9:29 PM, VocalNeal said:

Another example of the US understanding of global affairs and international relations by taking a Jewish cleric on a diplomatic mission to a Muslim-majority country. Whatever next...🤔

They probably knew and did it anyway, or they intentionally did it to provoke the inevitable response.

 

BTW, since when in America do clerics have anything to do with diplomacy? Isn't there supposed to be a division between religion and state?