Foreigners and their overseas income: what next?

[Thaindrew]

1 hour ago, wensiensheng said:

I’m not sure you are correct. Only INCOME brought in is assessable to tax. Possibly capital gains also. I see no mention of assessing capital monies that are brought in to Thailand.

 

there is also the issue of whether the person withdrawing cash from an atm is, in fact, resident in Thailand for tax purposes. No details were provided by the op on that.

ATM withdrawals are reported as part of CRS to the country where you declare residency

[CharlesHolzhauer]

11 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

If a you do a) then you are sending a message to the Tax people that you want to pay Tax.

 

22 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

If a you do a) then you are sending a message to the Tax people that you want to pay Tax

Frankly, I am quite dispirited by your assertion. After all and the best to my knowledge, you are engaged in a business endeavor up north. Maybe your comment might have been made humorously or without much thought.

 

Obtaining a tax identification number (TIN) does not automatically mean that the holder is paying taxes. A TIN is simply a unique identifier assigned by a tax authority to individuals or entities for tax purposes.

 

However, whether or not taxes are actually paid depends on various factors such as the individual or entity's income, deductions, exemptions, and compliance with tax laws and regulations. Simply having a TIN does not guarantee that taxes are being paid, as it is possible for someone to have a TIN but not have any taxable income or to be non-compliant with tax obligations.

[fgmr]

1 hour ago, Guderian said:

Somebody should translate the story about the goose that laid the golden eggs into Thai and send it to the muppets who came up with this bureaucratic mess.

Don't denigrate the Muppets by comparing them with you know who!}

[Marco51]

2 hours ago, Card said:

The answer is a clear YES. Any money brought into Thailand from abroad, no matter how it is brought in, is assessable. That doesn't mean it will be taxed but has to be added to the mix and is declarable.

....and every ATM withdrawal gets reported?...................

[Rimmer]

Incomprehensible gibberish posts and replies have been removed:

 

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[Guderian]

1 hour ago, Bangkok Barry said:

If we pay Thai tax like Thais can we also benefit from the 30 baht health scheme? No, I thought not. It only works one-way.

 

We should blame the OECD and its 'Tax Justice' campaign, which was the basis for CRS and all the ensuing nonsense, like this change to the Thai rules. This myopic organisation thinks that 'justice' means forcing people to pay tax on their income in at least one country in the world, no matter what the source, while happily denying them any benefits from the tax they pay. To add insult to injury, the tax you pay in your home country and/or Thailand will help to pay the country's subscription to the OECD, so they can continue promoting this kind of big-government bullying.

[Phulublub]

1 hour ago, Bangkok Barry said:

 

It seems to me that Thailand might be shooting itself in the foot. I for one am considering not making my usual transfers to Thailand but using my UK ATM and visa cards to make purchases. Contactless makes that so easy now. I'll use the money I already have saved here to make minor purchases where a card isn't possible, but even many market stalls have QR codes now.

ATM and CC purchases can be tracked and traced in exactly the same way as direct transfers.  If money transferred to Thailadn (by whatever means, inlcuding bringing in cash) is assessable incoem then there MAY be a Thai tax liability.

 

In truth, many will be from countries with a DTA that minimises or eradicates any liability to any tax payments here.

 

A lot of expats are getting worked up about a change that will have minimal or no impact on them.  It is aimed at gathering tax from wealthy Thais; that it is broad in scope so we are caught as well is perhaps unfortunate.

 

As yet, Thai tax forms do not have the required fields for any of us to file, even if we want to.  That may change by next January when we are supposed to file.  We should also obtain a TIN (Tax Identification Number).  But if we do not, and continue to bring is funds but have none that are assessable, the fine for non reporting and non payment is equal to the amount owed - so nothing.  

 

Even for those who may have some income that is assessable, then if tax has already been paid, then under all DTAs, this is credited either here or at home so is paid only once.  With Thai rates low, and allowances decent, there will usually still be no extra tax to pay.

 

But if you want to panic, run to another country, store cash under mattress, or other silly extremes, feel free to do so.

 

PH

[Phulublub]

2 hours ago, Card said:

The answer is a clear YES. Any money brought into Thailand from abroad, no matter how it is brought in, is assessable. That doesn't mean it will be taxed but has to be added to the mix and is declarable.

Utterly WRONG.  Under all DTAs there are several classifications that are explicitly NON-assessable.  Suggest you do some better research before psoting incorrect and potentially worrying misinformation.

 

PH

[Phulublub]

2 hours ago, Guderian said:

Somebody should translate the story about the goose that laid the golden eggs into Thai and send it to the muppets who came up with this bureaucratic mess.

Or perhaps some of the muppets posting incorrrect nonsense should do some background reading before making knee jerk and utterly wrong statements.

 

PH

[Marco51]

2 hours ago, Jonathan Swift said:

According to what I’ve read thus far, no. But you may have to file a rax return here. But what if you don’t? How would they find out and track you down? That’s what I wonder. Are they motivated to become the FBI/IRS of Thailand? Do they have the resources to wage tax war against non complying low income expats? Or will it be a matter of so long as you don’t attract attention you stay under the radar?

You apply for your yearly Non-B ? Then just wait. It will be additional documents s.a. tax declaration, declarations from your bank here and (as the international ones eventually get reported ) the one abroad, then the ID has a list of (crooked, almost impossible to understand ) boxes to tick off. Ticked: fine, 1 left out: bring more documents. I predict the expat community and the amount of pensioners will slowly disappear to Vietnam, the Phillip Peenes and be replaced by Chinese and Privilege Card holders. Hey guys, maybe Europe is more expensive but fair and the pollution....... Wasn't it Thaksin 20 years ago who came up with this Privileged card in the 1st place? Hmmmmm............

[freeworld]

7 minutes ago, Marco51 said:

....and every ATM withdrawal gets reported?...................

No.

[Phulublub]

1 hour ago, AhFarangJa said:

Something I do not see written about, yet to my mind is a serious issue, and that is the retired people on annual extensions to stay using the monthly income method. Surely, with a sum of about 65,000 per month coming in regularly to meet visa requirements, the taxman will want to get his grubby paws on some of it.   

Depends on the source.  Most US and UK Government pensions, for example, are non-asseable.

 

PH

[Bobthegimp]

4 hours ago, webfact said:

A retiree, for example, might argue – and indeed prove – he or she has paid taxes on pensions in the home country. But the Revenue could argue that the retiree could use those payments as a tax credit in Thailand rather than conceding a total immunity

 

See you in court.

 

 

Edited April 4 by stats
oversized graphic re-sized

[Phulublub]

1 hour ago, Satcommlee said:

This is the bit people should be worried about, people seem to think Dual Tax treaties exist so an individual can CHOOSE which rules to follow.

Take a person living on an income just below the income tax threshold in Europe (perhaps a state pension) but this person is not in Europe!  This person for tax purposes is resident in Thailand and his income is above the tax threshold in Thailand perhaps making him liable to pay tax in Thailand.

 

Having paid no tax in Europe,  he does not have anything to credit against his Thai Tax liability.

 

Not intended to be a qualified response, but thought provocing all the same

 

But he will also have Thai exemptions and allowances...maybe go work out how much will be due on some real life European pensions that are not exempt under that country's DTA. (hint:  In most cases, even when assessable, will be minimial liabilty)

 

PH

[tomacht8]

I recently had a meeting with my Thai tax expert. He also gives lectures on tax law at various universities. Shortly:
1. This is not new tax law, but the whole thing is just a new interpretation of current tax law.
2. This new interpretation is controversial. The legality of this interpretation is currently being questioned by various interest groups, including in tax law court proceedings.
3. The law still applies that if you transfer income from an old year to Thailand in a new year, then it is tax-free. Whether the new interpretation breaks the existing law will be decided in court cases.
4. In my case: I have had a Pink ID card = tax number for decades, but I have never had to personally pay income taxes or receive any mail about it from the tax office. His advice is not to go to the regional tax office and ask stupid questions.
5. It is not the case that banks automatically report all financial transactions from abroad to Thailand to the tax authorities. In addition to the fact that the tax authorities do not have the IT system capacity to carry out such total monitoring, this would also violate the rights of the account holders. The reporting process works exactly the other way around. If the tax authorities have reasonable suspicion, they can request the account holder's bank details.
6. According to my tax advisor, you become noticeable when you do more than 400 foreign transactions per year.
7. If you transfer your savings to Thailand, it is not taxable income. My tax advisor recommended that I include "savings" as a text on my transfers.
8. Large sums should be transferred right at the beginning of the year so that it is clear that they cannot be income for the current year.
9. You can transfer tax-free cash gifts to Thai family members amounting to 20 million baht per year. However, you have to be careful to what extent gift allowances are covered by the tax authorities in your home country.
10. Overall, this new tax interpretation only causes uncertainty for foreign investors and expats. Therefore, all that remains is to wait until the relevant directive rulings emerge from court cases.

[Thingamabob]

An awful lot of noise being made about this subject. Best to stay calm, and react only when the legislation is clarified.

[ujayujay]

2 hours ago, Jonathan Swift said:

In the US strict privacy laws will prevent any entity from accessing bank or financial information without the accountholder’s express permission. 

OK do this and you cant no more renew your Visa......

[jaideedave]

1 hour ago, anyone said:

A'ight, next up. How an ATM gonna know how long you been kickin' it in Thailand?

That's been my argument all along. 25 million people visited LOS last year.How many used credit cards? How long did they stay? How to tell if a transaction was made by a tourist or a pensioner? Wouldn't each and every transaction have to be examined to make that determination? Maybe I'm missing something here?

[Somrak]

O.k. Still it Looks  Nobody knows nothing.

My bank told me: - No Money send =  No tax.

If you Bring Money in Cash, they can Not follow = No tax. 

 

[lucky2103]

2 hours ago, Badrabbit said:

I pay tax on my 3 pensions in the UK do I now pay tax here too?

It depends.

If the UK and Thailand have a double taxation treaty, chances are you won't pay taxes in TH....IF the tax rate in TH is equal or below compared to the UK.

 

However, if TH taxes are higher than in the UK, you may have to pay the difference to the thai RD.

 

These infos are from my German accounting company.

[gravity101]

6 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

I recently had a meeting with my Thai tax expert. He also gives lectures on tax law at various universities. Shortly:
1. This is not new tax law, but the whole thing is just a new interpretation of current tax law.
2. This new interpretation is controversial. The legality of this interpretation is currently being questioned by various interest groups, including in tax law court proceedings.
3. The law still applies that if you transfer income from an old year to Thailand in a new year, then it is tax-free. Whether the new interpretation breaks the existing law will be decided in court cases.
4. In my case: I have had a Pink ID card = tax number for decades, but I have never had to personally pay income taxes or receive any mail about it from the tax office. His advice is not to go to the regional tax office and ask stupid questions.
5. It is not the case that banks automatically report all financial transactions from abroad to Thailand to the tax authorities. In addition to the fact that the tax authorities do not have the IT system capacity to carry out such total monitoring, this would also violate the rights of the account holders. The reporting process works exactly the other way around. If the tax authorities have reasonable suspicion, they can request the account holder's bank details.
6. According to my tax advisor, you become noticeable when you do more than 400 foreign transactions per year.
7. If you transfer your savings to Thailand, it is not taxable income. My tax advisor recommended that I include "savings" as a text on my transfers.
8. Large sums should be transferred right at the beginning of the year so that it is clear that they cannot be income for the current year.
9. You can transfer tax-free cash gifts to Thai family members amounting to 20 million baht per year. However, you have to be careful to what extent gift allowances are covered by the tax authorities in your home country.
10. Overall, this new tax interpretation only causes uncertainty for foreign investors and expats. Therefore, all that remains is to wait until the relevant directive rulings emerge from court cases.

Excellent answer. I was told by my guy the 400 transactions were for incoming domestic however. He couldn't put a quantity figure on international. My guy especially said #8 in your list should be done jic.

[JBChiangRai]

27 minutes ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

 

Frankly, I am quite dispirited by your assertion. After all and the best to my knowledge, you are engaged in a business endeavor up north. Maybe your comment might have been made humorously or without much thought.

 

Obtaining a tax identification number (TIN) does not automatically mean that the holder is paying taxes. A TIN is simply a unique identifier assigned by a tax authority to individuals or entities for tax purposes.

 

However, whether or not taxes are actually paid depends on various factors such as the individual or entity's income, deductions, exemptions, and compliance with tax laws and regulations. Simply having a TIN does not guarantee that taxes are being paid, as it is possible for someone to have a TIN but not have any taxable income or to be non-compliant with tax obligations.

 

I do have a TIN, I was given it when I was appointed a director of one of Thailand's large listed companies over a decade ago, they were a client of my company in the UK too.  I have forgotten what my TIN is, although I suspect it's probably the same number on my Pink ID Card.

 

I have brought in over a million pounds to this country, yes I am involved in a business here (limited company), however I take no salary and my daughter owns 99.997% of it so I have no need for a TIN, or to bring money in for quite some time. 

 

Having lived here a very long time, I think I understand some of the workings of the authorities here.  I think it highly likely they floated publicly and ambiguously this tax liability for foreigners in their usually murky fashion and wait to see what our reaction is.  I feel very strongly if people trot down to their local tax office asking for TIN's this will help authorities make the decision on whether or not to implement it. My advice is DON'T do it, until you absolutely have to, there is a good chance this will encourage the authorities to abandon it.

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Bobthegimp said:

 

See you in court.

 

It would help if you knew where Article 18 comes from

[Bobthegimp]

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I do have a TIN, I was given it when I was appointed a director of one of Thailand's large listed companies over a decade ago, they were a client of my company in the UK too.  I have forgotten what my TIN is, although I suspect it's probably the same number on my Pink ID Card.

 

I have brought in over a million pounds to this country, yes I am involved in a business here (limited company), however I take no salary and my daughter owns 99.997% of it so I have no need for a TIN, or to bring money in for quite some time. 

 

Having lived here a very long time, I think I understand some of the workings of the authorities here.  I think it highly likely they floated publicly and ambiguously this tax liability for foreigners in their usually murky fashion and wait to see what our reaction is.  I feel very strongly if people trot down to their local tax office asking for TIN's this will help authorities make the decision on whether or not to implement it. My advice is DON'T do it, until you absolutely have to, there is a good chance this will encourage the authorities to abandon it.

 

 

 

 

It would help if you knew where Article 18 comes from

 

Sorry, it's article 18 from my country's (Canada) DTA with Thailand.  I looked it up when all of this nonsense started because much of what I read on these threads was pure conjecture.  Many retirees here could save themselves a lot of misery by doing the same.  People with more complex sources of income will need professional advice. 

[JBChiangRai]

12 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

I recently had a meeting with my Thai tax expert. He also gives lectures on tax law at various universities. Shortly:
.........

 

His advice is not to go to the regional tax office and ask stupid questions.

9. You can transfer tax-free cash gifts to Thai family members amounting to 20 million baht per year. However, you have to be careful to what extent gift allowances are covered by the tax authorities in your home country.
10. Overall, this new tax interpretation only causes uncertainty for foreign investors and expats. Therefore, all that remains is to wait until the relevant directive rulings emerge from court cases.

 

Your Thai Tax Expert's advice is absolutely correct.  DO NOT go to the tax office and ask stupid questions.

 

I can transfer 20M baht per year to each of my daughters as a gift, it is tax free to them providing they declare it on their tax return.  It is important they don't transfer any of it to me otherwise it becomes tax evasion.  I will be transferring sums to them each year.

 

The awkward issue is crypto.  Whilst it's not a great proportion of my wealth, it is likely to become significant enough over the next few years that I will have to leave Thailand for 6 months in the year that I sell it here or pay 35% tax on it. I don't like paying tax unnecessarily and I do fancy a round the world trip in a couple of years.  A round the world trip is already cheaper than 35% of my crypto today so it's a no brainer.

[MurakamiX]

2 hours ago, gravity101 said:

This is the best way until we get clarity. International ATM withdrawals can't be tracked back. Larger purchases is where they are shooting themselves in the foot. Who on earth is going to buy a condo/house/car knowing they might have to pay a 30% tax premium on top of the purchase price come the end of the year? Who is going to put their kids in a high end school if the cost is now 30% more? Who will open a business, if to fund it you'll be liable for income tax? It'll all have to come from offshore without touching the local bank...

You mean like in developed Western countries? Tax is want technically builds a functional society. Corruption nulls that however. 

[NorthernRyland]

45 minutes ago, Guderian said:

We should blame the OECD and its 'Tax Justice' campaign, which was the basis for CRS and all the ensuing nonsense, like this change to the Thai rules.

It's like you lived in a mafia controlled neighborhood and then when you moved away the old mafia notified another mafia in your new area that you stopped paying dues. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

33 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

I recently had a meeting with my Thai tax expert. He also gives lectures on tax law at various universities. Shortly:
1. This is not new tax law, but the whole thing is just a new interpretation of current tax law.
2. This new interpretation is controversial. The legality of this interpretation is currently being questioned by various interest groups, including in tax law court proceedings.
3. The law still applies that if you transfer income from an old year to Thailand in a new year, then it is tax-free. Whether the new interpretation breaks the existing law will be decided in court cases.
4. In my case: I have had a Pink ID card = tax number for decades, but I have never had to personally pay income taxes or receive any mail about it from the tax office. His advice is not to go to the regional tax office and ask stupid questions.
5. It is not the case that banks automatically report all financial transactions from abroad to Thailand to the tax authorities. In addition to the fact that the tax authorities do not have the IT system capacity to carry out such total monitoring, this would also violate the rights of the account holders. The reporting process works exactly the other way around. If the tax authorities have reasonable suspicion, they can request the account holder's bank details.
6. According to my tax advisor, you become noticeable when you do more than 400 foreign transactions per year.
7. If you transfer your savings to Thailand, it is not taxable income. My tax advisor recommended that I include "savings" as a text on my transfers.
8. Large sums should be transferred right at the beginning of the year so that it is clear that they cannot be income for the current year.
9. You can transfer tax-free cash gifts to Thai family members amounting to 20 million baht per year. However, you have to be careful to what extent gift allowances are covered by the tax authorities in your home country.
10. Overall, this new tax interpretation only causes uncertainty for foreign investors and expats. Therefore, all that remains is to wait until the relevant directive rulings emerge from court cases.

 

That above all sounds like reasonably sensible guidance/advice... Remains to be seen whether it will all turn out to be correct in the end.

 

But in the meantime, I'm not going anywhere near a Thai revenue/taxation office, just as I never have in a decade plus of living here.

 

As an American, I'm already taxed in the home country for everything that's taxable, and I have no income in Thailand, except for some bank interest that the Thai banks already automatically do Thai tax withholding on, and I report as paid on my U.S. tax return each year.

 

 

Edited April 4 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[MurakamiX]

10 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Your Thai Tax Expert's advice is absolutely correct.  DO NOT go to the tax office and ask stupid questions.

 

I can transfer 20M baht per year to each of my daughters as a gift, it is tax free to them providing they declare it on their tax return.  It is important they don't transfer any of it to me otherwise it becomes tax evasion.  I will be transferring sums to them each year.

 

The awkward issue is crypto.  Whilst it's not a great proportion of my wealth, it is likely to become significant enough over the next few years that I will have to leave Thailand for 6 months in the year that I sell it here or pay 35% tax on it. I don't like paying tax unnecessarily and I do fancy a round the world trip in a couple of years.  A round the world trip is already cheaper than 35% of my crypto today so it's a no brainer.

Left translated cycle ending in Summer looks likely. You can sell to fiat in Portugal as they don't tax crypto I'm fairly sure.

[tomacht8]

5 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

That above all sounds like reasonably sensible guidance/advice... Remains to be seen whether it will all turn out to be correct in the end.

 

But in the meantime, I'm not going anywhere near a Thai revenue/taxation office, just as I never have in a decade plus of living here.

 

I do it the same way. There is a saying: Never go to your Lord unless he has summoned you.

[No Forwarding Address]

1 hour ago, borderhopper2005 said:

Revised posting.

 

So-called democratically elected (populist) premier.

Turned out to be dumber than previous military dictator.

Always boasting   more than they really can do(mostly for his short-lived approval rate on SNS).

It can get Thai public services into big mess.

Foreign income already taxed in the country of its origin, cannot be taxed(by tax treaty) again elsewhere.

Increased application for foreigners' Tax ID number will stress up Thai tax department(undoubtfully). 

Creating so much of the needless new workload for Nothing.

 

It reminds me of one thing.

During the period of previous military regime, they  once declared that foreigners also must report even their short term domestic travel(temporary trip other than the Change of Usual Place of Residence) in their TM30 things.

But it was eventually dropped; simply unenforceable.

After that, we only need to make a TM30 report when we:

 

1-Return to Thailand from abroad.

 

2-Change our usual place of address.

 

Just like prescribed by laws  in the first place.

cannot be taxed  Please don’ use that term when dealing with Thai Govt, they can do anything they want, especially when it comes to money.