Foreigners and their overseas income: what next?

[Mike Lister]

3 hours ago, Lorry said:

I was almost going to click onto the video,  thinking, oh, another video,  this time with the Swedish ambassador...

 

Never mind, you are from Australia,  you are excused. 

(Most Europeans I know think that New Zealand is near Australia, whereas the distance between Australia and New Zealand is much bigger than the distance between Switzerland and Sweden)

You couldn't make it up if you tried. 🙂

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 5/18/2024 at 12:56 AM, Lorry said:

I was almost going to click onto the video,  thinking, oh, another video,  this time with the Swedish ambassador...

 

Never mind, you are from Australia,  you are excused. 

(Most Europeans I know think that New Zealand is near Australia, whereas the distance between Australia and New Zealand is much bigger than the distance between Switzerland and Sweden)

Click it and listen - you might learn something - for a change.  

[Presnock]

On 4/4/2024 at 12:14 PM, AhFarangJa said:

Something I do not see written about, yet to my mind is a serious issue, and that is the retired people on annual extensions to stay using the monthly income method. Surely, with a sum of about 65,000 per month coming in regularly to meet visa requirements, the taxman will want to get his grubby paws on some of it.   

well onthis note, the immigration officers want to see the bankbook that shows 65000 remitted but is the taxable percentage taken off before the immigration sees the 65000 or what...Not sure how all that will work out.  How about the cost of visas - is the tax added on as the money comes in for that purpose or are the visas all going up in price (i.e. 800K - tax so have to add the taxed amount too for the cost of the visa?  Just wondering as that is what I used to do for my yearly extension.  If I had to bring in 50K for an LTR would I first have to pay tax on it and then 50K for the visa?  just wondering and hope that the RD folks would put out some official word so we know how to start complaining officially and to where.

[Presnock]

On 5/9/2024 at 11:40 AM, nitayagirl said:

 

The proverb is โลภมาก ลาภหาย.

Funny, that is an Aesop's children's fable (133) saying the exact same thing and based on translations of Latin similar story with many other civilizations having basically the same moral meaning of an animal having some type of food in its mouth, sees a reflection water or in some stories a fish in the water, drops his food to grab the fish, loses it as meanwhile a buzzard flew down and stole the food he was carrying.  Lots of different stories...  take your pick.

 

[Presnock]

On 5/10/2024 at 12:21 PM, Mike Lister said:

Don't forget there is a large segment of the expat community who have pensions remitted directly to Thailand, in the month they are paid. I receive my UK State pension that way and also my US SSc income, both by direct deposit. Many of those people will use the income method to obtain their visa's, I do not and am on the 400k in the bank method. So when you say, "most of us" I think it's more appropriate to say, "some of us".

 

If you have pre 1 January 2024 savings and you have a bank statement showing the amounts on that date on near to, you are in the clear to remit those funds, why wouldn't you be?

 

And, I don't know what the average statistics are but if 100 people remit funds to Thailand, and file a tax return, what percentage do you think will get singled out for audit? I'm guessing perhaps one!

 

well as there aRE AT LEAST 7000+ LTR approved folks so far, that is at least 7000+ that will not have to pay taxes on foreign funds remitted into Thailand, but those working inside Thailand will probably have to pay taxes but at a cheaper rate.  By the time tax time comes around there will be more so the RD will not be getting their monies.  Plus in listening to the "experts" one from the RD department, DTA's will be honored too and that will limit even more folks from how much they would have to pay if any.  But, if people have been able to obtain an LTR, they have most likely already been paying taxes to another country, and some will have exemptions from certain pensions, etc so it does appear to me that the RD might think they will be getting more from ex-pats...on top of which many ex-pats will cease to be tax

residents this year and others will remit funds much lower than normal so Thailand will lose a lot more than they gain from the ex-pats in my opinion.  But, as usual until we see the final law interpretation, who really knows what the outcome might be.  Good luck to all!

[Presnock]

On 5/10/2024 at 7:49 AM, Mike Lister said:

A fella's got to be fair and reasonable about this. It's not a half baked mess and it's not a so called tax! It's a single adjustment to one of the tax rules, that's all. The half baked mess part is the panic and scurrying that many foreigners have created that results from their very recent awareness that they too have to pay tax in Thailand and have been required to do so all along. That coin is now dropping!

just remember, one of the reasons they are changing how they interpret their law is to weed out those that have not been paying taxes elsewhere nor here - this is part of the international OECD CRS, etc from some governments feeling they have been shortchanged especially pushed by the US which taxes their citizens no matter where they are.  Ben Franklin made the comment after they did the declaration of Independence ---only constant forever - death and taxes

[MartinBangkok]

On 5/16/2024 at 3:28 AM, Presnock said:

I agree.  Part of the OECD  CRS and FACTA are all programs aimed at various targets i.e. tax evasion, money laundering, corruption, and probably a lot more as control over the masses gets more and more difficult in my opinion.  I do read about the US from which I hail and I realize that people are not financially robust as many people think.  Housing is totally out of control and people are even resorting to living in a foreign country and driving across the border to come to work in border states as they can't afford the state housing (which would also include property and other taxes).  I have lived overseas more than the US since I got out of HS in 1964 and have filed taxes on my earnings every single year except VN war resident and tax exempt.  I haven't had a lot of the freebie stuff that taxpayers reportedly get like during the COVID fiasco but my tax bill is paid regularly.  I divested myself of any holdings in the states or some state/city/district there would be after me to pay their taxes too.  While I was working overseas, I was a govt employee so me state of residence took their share of my paycheck and my house there required me to pay property taxes too.  Now I have to file my Foreign Bank and Financial Report (FBAR) every year as well as inform the tax folks that I do have a foreign bank account.  But still, I guess a sizeable number of US citizens working overseas do not or have not been paying their "fair share" so the govt resorts to different schemes to find ways to hunt those people down.  Now, the Thais and other foreign countries are going to aid the US Justice and Tax offices in tracking down those people.  I am pretty sure that the Thais when checking remittances into Thailand which are supposedly going to be reported by tax ID and tax forms and claims of exemption are going to be asked to verify large remittances.  It will be interesting to note how far that can and will go to track down expats financials.  I read today another article about the "dire" condition of the Thai national finances while they seek more tax monies to fund populist promises but which weigh heavily on the empty coffers.  So, I guess maybe after June the RD will put out the final on the new interpretation of the Thai tax law.  Sorry for this boring tale of my opinion and why I see it the way I do.  As said by Benjamin Franklin, "nothing is certain except taxes and death".  Good Luck to all...I noted on the news that the Thai weather department says that we will enter into the rainy season on the 20th of this month.

Another thing, this new global tax idea, isn't it a breach of basic human rights? I mean, Thailand, and the global system with OECD at the forefront, wants western expats to pay tax in return for nothing, absolutely nothing. It's even worse, paying tax to a totally corrupt country where the only thing you get is government mandated discrimination (property market, double, triple or 10 times prices in hospitals, tourist attractions, traffic fines, hotels, taxis, not to mention a reporting system like you are a criminal and the exorbitant expat rates in the justice system). I could go on!

 

I could try telling the clowns running Thailand what paying tax gets me in return in Norway, but they probably wouldn't believe me.

 

It's not right, the new global tax regime.

[Mike Lister]

The subject is Thai tax, not the price of cars

[MartinBangkok]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

The subject is Thai tax, not the price of cars

Yes, sorry about that.

[Rimmer]

An off topic ramble has been removed

[Presnock]

11 hours ago, MartinBangkok said:

Another thing, this new global tax idea, isn't it a breach of basic human rights? I mean, Thailand, and the global system with OECD at the forefront, wants western expats to pay tax in return for nothing, absolutely nothing. It's even worse, paying tax to a totally corrupt country where the only thing you get is government mandated discrimination (property market, double, triple or 10 times prices in hospitals, tourist attractions, traffic fines, hotels, taxis, not to mention a reporting system like you are a criminal and the exorbitant expat rates in the justice system). I could go on!

 

I could try telling the clowns running Thailand what paying tax gets me in return in Norway, but they probably wouldn't believe me.

 

It's not right, the new global tax regime.

I agree...national tax US no matter where we earn it or where we are residents, in addition, if in the US, most likely a state tax too, some district taxes, some city taxes, and property taxes where they continue to raise the value of the property...in many states now the average national wage earner can not even think about buying a house!  In San Francisco,  Calf.  there are no houses for sale under 1 million dollars according to the media.  Hospitalization is now zooming and health insurance cost is getting prohibitive too.  Big pharma prices also continue rising to enable them get record profits each year.  Just look at the people, ask them - very few are happy with the current situations throughout the country.  Now one would think that with a national election, select a "new" president, that things might look better after

November....dream on as the two leading candidates are WWII baby boomers and mentally both seem to have lost it yet their party has no one else waiting...so the losers are the citizens AGAIN, with on candidate promising lower taxes for the rich!  Go figure.  Best of luck to all especially those of us lucky enough to live here in Thailand.

[jesimps]

On 4/4/2024 at 9:38 AM, webfact said:

Many non-working expats are currently concerned about having to deal with more Thai bureaucracies.

More than three months after “assessable” foreign income became taxable, many of Thailand’s expats are still swimming in a sea of uncertainty. Lots of advice online, but few definite answers. Senior officers from the Revenue have said little of late, although there has been a half-promise to the Swiss ambassador in a televised interview to print the tax identification forms in English as well as in Thai.

 

There is a view amongst some Thai lawyers that we must wait until July for clarification on nitty-gritty issues such as double taxation treaties and the tax status of pensions. By that time, some expats will have passed 180 days of minimum residence necessary for tax liability in this category.

 

However, other specialists argue that the Revenue needs not to clarify anything. After all, formal tax law did not change on January 1 2024. There was simply the closing of a tax loophole which had enabled Thais or foreigners to delay transferring income here until a subsequent year.

Will all foreigners who spend half a year or more in Thailand be required to register with the Revenue by obtaining a tin (tax identification number) and submitting the required forms?

 

The submission deadline for the calendar year 2024 will be in the January-March quarter of 2025. Revenue spokespersons have hinted at the all-inclusive scenario, but there has not been a formal declaration. Could the tax offices cope with the rush?

There are some categories of foreign tax residents who will not be liable at all this year, for example those who do not transfer ANY foreign income to Thailand in 2024 as well as holders of the 10 year Longterm Residence Visa who are exempt from declaring any foreign income in any case.

 

The fact that you may be required to submit forms does not mean that you are, in fact, liable to pay any Thai tax. But expats won’t welcome the envisaged bureaucracy and likely registration with two tax authorities: the home country and Thailand.

 

There is also ambiguity about the precise status double taxation treaties. A retiree, for example, might argue – and indeed prove – he or she has paid taxes on pensions in the home country. But the Revenue could argue that the retiree could use those payments as a tax credit in Thailand rather than conceding a total immunity.

 

Everyone agrees that the revised rules about foreign income are designed to catch Thais (and foreigners) making profits from untaxed overseas businesses and foreign exchange and crypto currency trading. The problem, needless to say, could be small fish being caught in the net alongside big ones.

 

The optimistic view about the future is that tin registration will remain voluntary as, in fact, it always has been for Thai citizens. If you think you are liable for tax, then by all means register. If you try to cheat, the newish Common Reporting System – an automatic and international exchange of the financial information of individuals to combat tax evasion and ensure compliance – will expose your dealings.

 

But if all expats living here for half a year or so are thrown into the same pit willy-nilly, then Thai authorities can expect non-working longstay expats to become an endangered species. Imagine the note on official publicity for one year extensions or for Elite visas: “You are reminded that you are required to register with the Thai Revenue’s tax identification system if staying in Thailand more than 180 days in a calendar year.” Not exactly marketing.

 

By Barry Kenyon

TOP: File photo for reference only.

 

-- Barry Kenyon 2024-04-04

 

 

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This morning (12 June), with my Thai wife in tow who speaks fluent English, I visited the tax office in Jomtien to obtain a TIN. When I presented the lady with my passport, she told me that because I paid tax in my home country (UK) she could not issue me with a TIN. My wife outlined all that had been written in the news the last few months about long-stay expats bringing money into the country needing to be assessed, but she was adamant. No TIN! Up to them. I'll just keep an eye on Asean Now to see if anything comes of this. One thing seems certain, if we do all need to be assessed for tax here, then it hasn't come to the notice of the Jomtien Tax Office yet.

[redwood1]

2 hours ago, jesimps said:

This morning (12 June), with my Thai wife in tow who speaks fluent English, I visited the tax office in Jomtien to obtain a TIN. When I presented the lady with my passport, she told me that because I paid tax in my home country (UK) she could not issue me with a TIN. My wife outlined all that had been written in the news the last few months about long-stay expats bringing money into the country needing to be assessed, but she was adamant. No TIN! Up to them. I'll just keep an eye on Asean Now to see if anything comes of this. One thing seems certain, if we do all need to be assessed for tax here, then it hasn't come to the notice of the Jomtien Tax Office yet.

 

Are you stupid or what?....Let sleeping dogs lay...

[Cult of the Sun]

On 5/23/2024 at 7:20 AM, Mike Lister said:

The subject is Thai tax, not the price of cars

Next there'll be a tax on Thighs..  wait.. that might be what this is. 🫢

The gov. is the p1mp, just like the good ol' usa.

[Galong]

On 4/4/2024 at 12:00 PM, Bangkok Barry said:

If we pay Thai tax like Thais can we also benefit from the 30 baht health scheme? No, I thought not. It only works one-way.

"pay Thai tax like Thais" ??  Out of all of my Thai friends and associates, I only know a couple who actually pay taxes. The others certainly make enough to owe taxes, but have zero interest in doing so and also have zero fear of any consequences. This is Thailand. This is how stuff works. This new tax scheme is, in reality, designed to milk money from foreigners under the guise that there is inequality in Thailand. Those who came up with this scheme are from the elite families that cause the inequality.  The hypocrisy meter is spinning and starting to smoke.  

[anrcaccount]

12 hours ago, jesimps said:

This morning (12 June), with my Thai wife in tow who speaks fluent English, I visited the tax office in Jomtien to obtain a TIN. When I presented the lady with my passport, she told me that because I paid tax in my home country (UK) she could not issue me with a TIN. My wife outlined all that had been written in the news the last few months about long-stay expats bringing money into the country needing to be assessed, but she was adamant. No TIN! Up to them. I'll just keep an eye on Asean Now to see if anything comes of this. One thing seems certain, if we do all need to be assessed for tax here, then it hasn't come to the notice of the Jomtien Tax Office yet.

 

This is EXACTLY why all this forum tax discussion, is of little to no value.

 

In fact, tax discussion on this forum, ends up wasting peoples time by causing them to worry, then troop down to the local RD office, where the answer is and will continue to be, the same as you get at HomePro - MAI MEE, MAI DAI  !!!

 

Don't worry!

 

 

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

13 hours ago, jesimps said:

This morning (12 June), with my Thai wife in tow who speaks fluent English, I visited the tax office in Jomtien to obtain a TIN. When I presented the lady with my passport, she told me that because I paid tax in my home country (UK) she could not issue me with a TIN. My wife outlined all that had been written in the news the last few months about long-stay expats bringing money into the country needing to be assessed, but she was adamant. No TIN! Up to them. I'll just keep an eye on Asean Now to see if anything comes of this. One thing seems certain, if we do all need to be assessed for tax here, then it hasn't come to the notice of the Jomtien Tax Office yet.

I got mine a couple of years ago from the Office in Naklua (tried 1st at Jomtien & was told I had to go there as I live in Wongamat), they did look at me confused at 1st but I told them that I needed one for my UK Bank, to re-claim withheld interest & was planning on buying a condo so would need one to pay property tax and they relented. 

 

Wish I hadn't have bothered as I never did give it to my UK Bank, despite giving them every thing they asked for still not received the refund & have put of buying a Condo until the Tax position is clearer.   

[Rimmer]

An off topic post and replies has been removed

[Sir Dude]

Well, let's wait until the dust settles on Srettha's impeachment on June 18 by the military-learning senators, and how the cards fall with Thaksin's LM charge. Both of them could be being "dealt with" as the deal isn't going as agreed/honoured with the elites.

With a bit of luck, they both get stitched up and all their policies are quietly dropped/brushed under the carpet with some bureaucrat saying "Nothing to see here, move along" in classic Thai style... it was all a "misunderstanding".

[jayboy]

4 hours ago, Galong said:

"pay Thai tax like Thais" ??  Out of all of my Thai friends and associates, I only know a couple who actually pay taxes. The others certainly make enough to owe taxes, but have zero interest in doing so and also have zero fear of any consequences. This is Thailand. This is how stuff works. This new tax scheme is, in reality, designed to milk money from foreigners under the guise that there is inequality in Thailand. Those who came up with this scheme are from the elite families that cause the inequality.  The hypocrisy meter is spinning and starting to smoke.  

 

Sorry but this is almost all complete nonsense.Thais do pay income tax and those employed at a corporate level have it automatically deducted on the PAYE method. There are consequences to evading tax - without denying there is a corrupt element.There is no new tax scheme, rather a tweaking of what is already in place - bringing Thailand (eventually) in line with most other countries.The taxation on assessable overseas income is not aimed at foreigners, and elite families have nothing to do with it.The revised approach seems to come from the bureaucratic level and if anything it will be unwelcome to "elite families."

[lordgrinz]

10 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Sorry but this is almost all complete nonsense.Thais do pay income tax and those employed at a corporate level have it automatically deducted on the PAYE method. There are consequences to evading tax - without denying there is a corrupt element.There is no new tax scheme, rather a tweaking of what is already in place - bringing Thailand (eventually) in line with most other countries.The taxation on assessable overseas income is not aimed at foreigners, and elite families have nothing to do with it.The revised approach seems to come from the bureaucratic level and if anything it will be unwelcome to "elite families."

 

Only 3.3 Million people pay income tax in Thailand out of 70 million people. So almost all Thai's don't pay income tax.

[Mike Lister]

11 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Only 3.3 Million people pay income tax in Thailand out of 70 million people. So almost all Thai's don't pay income tax.

Only the workforce is measured for tax purposes, that's 38 million people, it's the same in most countries.

[lordgrinz]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Only the workforce is measured for tax purposes, that's 38 million people, it's the same in most countries.

 

Ok, so it's still less then 10%, happy now?

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Ok, so it's still less then 10%, happy now?

I am. I think it's important to be factually accurate with these things, even if it does appear to be pedantic.

[lordgrinz]

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I am. I think it's important to be factually accurate with these things, even if it does appear to be pedantic.

 

Yes, Cato 😉

[Dan SG]

I was talking to a Thai tax consultant recently on the new 'rules'.  He made a good point that this is just a rule and not the law.  There have been no changes to the law which is how we always understood things to be (i.e. no remittance in year the income is earned and you're good).  You could simply not follow the 'rule' and instead follow the law and it would be a perfectly legitimate action; he thinks if it ever went to court (yes I know!) you'd win.  Big disclaimer: his view not mine but thought interesting nonetheless to share to the forum.

[Mike Lister]

58 minutes ago, Dan SG said:

I was talking to a Thai tax consultant recently on the new 'rules'.  He made a good point that this is just a rule and not the law.  There have been no changes to the law which is how we always understood things to be (i.e. no remittance in year the income is earned and you're good).  You could simply not follow the 'rule' and instead follow the law and it would be a perfectly legitimate action; he thinks if it ever went to court (yes I know!) you'd win.  Big disclaimer: his view not mine but thought interesting nonetheless to share to the forum.

My recommendation is to find a new tax consultant! The TRD will not have reinterpreted the remittance rule, without due diligence and intense scrutiny by the legal profession, otherwise, why has it not already been challenged in the courts, as others said it would be when it was first announced! The second aspect of this is the idea that a foreigner might challenge the TRD ruling and win, is the stuff of pipedreams.

[Yumthai]

8 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

why has it not already been challenged in the courts

Rule would need to be enforced first in order to be then challenged.

[Dan SG]

14 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Rule would need to be enforced first in order to be then challenged.

Yes

 

22 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

My recommendation is to find a new tax consultant! The TRD will not have reinterpreted the remittance rule, without due diligence and intense scrutiny by the legal profession, otherwise, why has it not already been challenged in the courts, as others said it would be when it was first announced! The second aspect of this is the idea that a foreigner might challenge the TRD ruling and win, is the stuff of pipedreams.

Agree it's going to take balls to start brining a case against the tax authority, but i doubt they have really taken counsel whether the law is in their favour.  I think you're probably giving them too much credit and they're trying to wing it.  See below.  Baker McKenzie (one of the largest law firms) agree that in order to really effect this change they need to change the law which isn't easy

 

https://insightplus.bakermckenzie.com/bm/tax/thailand-offshore-sourced-income-brought-into-thailand-from-1-january-2024-onward-will-be-subject-to-thai-personal-income-tax

[Mike Lister]

38 minutes ago, Dan SG said:

Yes

 

Agree it's going to take balls to start brining a case against the tax authority, but i doubt they have really taken counsel whether the law is in their favour.  I think you're probably giving them too much credit and they're trying to wing it.  See below.  Baker McKenzie (one of the largest law firms) agree that in order to really effect this change they need to change the law which isn't easy

 

https://insightplus.bakermckenzie.com/bm/tax/thailand-offshore-sourced-income-brought-into-thailand-from-1-january-2024-onward-will-be-subject-to-thai-personal-income-tax

In bold above....that's not really the issue, albeit I think it would be naive to think the TRD did not take legal guidance before announcing this reinterpretation of the rules, this is not ammateur hour, it's the tax revenue department of a government.

 

The key issue is whether or not the reinterpretation will achieve their objective and that answer is likely to be no, which is why they appear to want to pursue worldwide taxation. Leaving assets outside Thailand semi-permanently will negate the effect of the new rule interpretation.