Foreigners and their overseas income: what next?

[freeworld]

2 hours ago, Thaindrew said:

ATM withdrawals are reported as part of CRS to the country where you declare residency

This is what CRS reports

Financial Account Information to be Reported

Under the CRS, financial institutions are required to report specific information about their account holders and their financial accounts. This information includes:

• Account Holder Information: Name, address, jurisdiction of residence, and tax identification number.

• Account Balance or Value: The total balance or value of the account at the end of the reporting period.

• Financial Income: Interest, dividends, and other income the account generates.

• Gross Proceeds from the Sale or Redemption of Financial Assets: Proceeds from the sale or redemption of assets held in the account

 

 

[Mike Lister]

28 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Yes.. Anyone bringin in income the year they made it had a tax laibility in law.. The fact is as Thailand had no way to know what was income and what was prior years savings, they simply ignored what they could not enforce. 

Now the loophole has been removed and all inbounds are considered income unless hown otherwise, they 'may' start enforcing it 

That's not true at all, not even close.

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, Presnock said:

The RD instructions on "when to obtain a Thai tax id number" says within 60 days of remitting assessable income for 2024 and several people on this forum have indicated that when they went to their local RD, they were refused the issuance of a Thai TIN as they didn't have assessable income.

The rule is, assessible income of over 120,000, then a TIN is required.

[Presnock]

2 hours ago, Phulublub said:

Or perhaps some of the muppets posting incorrrect nonsense should do some background reading before making knee jerk and utterly wrong statements.

 

PH

What I fine really disgusting, is that people from a multitude of countries don't even bother to read the tax agreements between Thailand and their country.  In addition everyone's income may come from totally alien to at least some of us who do read our DTA and the local RD regs, yet those folks continue to pour out their situation and expect us to clarify things for them.  Yeah a couple of really nice people do that very thing but again no matter what we advise, until the final written law or amendment to same are published we are just guessing.  Some incomes are exempt the royal decree even under Royal Decree No. 743 dated 23 May 2022. 

[eisfeld]

24 minutes ago, garzhe said:

Thailand is party to the CRS, they made their first report last year

 

I stand corrected, seems like they signed recently https://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-exchange/about-automatic-exchange/crs-mcaa-signatories.pdf

 

My point stands, the CRS has nothing to do with the recent changes because it relates only to funds transferred into Thailand so Thailand already has all relevant information and doesn't need to ask a foreign country.

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, NorthernRyland said:

 

Something just occurred to me. If the ONLY change is this loophole is being closed then does that imply we've all been evading taxes all these years UNLESS we used the loophole? Obviously most of us never even knew about the loophole so what's really changing? Seems like we're in the same position now as we ever were.

I haven't!  I paid the taxes on my US govt pension every year.  That is not assessable income for any of my remittances.

[gravity101]

1 hour ago, NorthernRyland said:

I never mindfully used the loophole, I just transferred money when I needed it once a month or so. Same as everyone else right?

Cant vouch for anyone else but it was the same thinking as me for sure. It may be wrong to be calling it a loophole, more of a feature to repatriate funds for the wealthy?

[Gknrd]

The writing has been on the wall in Thailand for the last several years. Anyone that did not see this coming deserves to be taxed and thrown under the bus. Thailand is following the China model where westerners are concerned and it is only going to get worse. 

As China's economy deteriorates Thailand will go down with them and the anti western sentiment will go off the charts.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, gravity101 said:

Cant vouch for anyone else but it was the same thinking as me for sure. It may be wrong to be calling it a loophole, more of a feature to repatriate funds for the wealthy?

Exactly that

[tandor]

5 hours ago, mokwit said:

Common Reporting Standard.

 

The Common Reporting Standard (CRS), developed in response to the G20 request and approved by the OECD Council on 15 July 2014, calls on jurisdictions to obtain information from their financial institutions and automatically exchange that information with other jurisdictions on an annual basis.

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Common+Reporting+standard

so Im expecting the TRD will after having had their 'tax bot' crawl through all our bank accounts, ATM transactions, Money Exchange transactions, International Money Brokers ie Wise/OFX/WU, then formulate a pattern and apply the 15% Withholding Tax, then when we submit the Income Declaration form to claim a rebate we may get a Tax Credit for the following year after the allowed Deductions have been considered. Any other ideas out there!

[Presnock]

10 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The rule is, assessible income of over 120,000, then a TIN is required.

I disagree totally with that.   If under the DTA US govt pensions cannot be taxed by Thailand as are US SS funds so unless someone has additional funds, they do not have assessable income to not only report but there is no reason to go to the RD and obtain a Thai TIN as they have no assessable income ever - like me and in addition to that, under Royal Decree No. 743 dated 23 May 2022, all of my funds that I remit to Thailand are tax exempt.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, tandor said:

so Im expecting the TRD will after having had their 'tax bot' crawl through all our bank accounts, ATM transactions, Money Exchange transactions, International Money Brokers ie Wise/OFX/WU, then formulate a pattern and apply the 15% Withholding Tax, then when we submit the Income Declaration form to claim a rebate we may get a Tax Credit for the following after the allowed Deductions have been considered. Any other ideas out there!

That's not even remotely how the tax system works in any country, it relies on taxpayers to declare their income and file accordingly.

[tandor]

45 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Yes.. Anyone bringin in income the year they made it had a tax laibility in law.. The fact is as Thailand had no way to know what was income and what was prior years savings, they simply ignored what they could not enforce. 

Now the loophole has been removed and all inbounds are considered income unless hown otherwise, they 'may' start enforcing it 

it was clearly stated in all the YouTube and Podcasts that whatever funds were in your accounts prior to January 1st 2024 would not be assessable.

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Presnock said:

I disagree totally with that.   If under the DTA US govt pensions cannot be taxed by Thailand as are US SS funds so unless someone has additional funds, they do not have assessable income to not only report but there is no reason to go to the RD and obtain a Thai TIN as they have no assessable income ever - like me and in addition to that, under Royal Decree No. 743 dated 23 May 2022, all of my funds that I remit to Thailand are tax exempt.

Read again what I wrote, slowly this time!

 

If you have assessible income of over 120,000 then you need a TIN, which is exactly what you just said!

[gravity101]

1 hour ago, NorthernRyland said:

I never mindfully used the loophole, I just transferred money when I needed it once a month or so. Same as everyone else right?

Cant vouch for anyone else but it was the same thinking as me for sure. It may be wrong to be calling it a loophole, more of a feature to repatriate funds for the wealthy?

[tandor]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

That's not even remotely how the tax system works in any country, it relies on taxpayers to declare their income and file accordingly.

well, that's a relief..thnx

[Mike Lister]

Just now, tandor said:

it was clearly stated in all the YouTube and Podcasts that whatever funds were in your accounts prior to January 1st 2024 would not be assessable.

 

Income earned and remitted before 1 January 2024 is not assessable.

[foreverlomsak]

4 hours ago, nickmondo said:

get the Green Wise card for the ATM here.  Its very good

If you are resident here (i.e. Wise only have a Thai address for you) you cannot get one, I've been requesting one periodically for a couple of years.

[The Theory]

5 hours ago, Mugi said:

then noone will buy a condo anymore

That's why I transferred enough to buy my last new car, last year. 
IMO many expats stop unnecessary transfers to avoid tax problems. 

[freeworld]

51 minutes ago, Presnock said:

I haven't!  I paid the taxes on my US govt pension every year.  That is not assessable income for any of my remittances.

Theoretically the way it should work

 

If the income is remitted to Thailand and is assessable.

The DTA provides the mechanism for relief to not pay tax in Thailand.

[gravity101]

 

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

Any assessed undeclared income is subject to a 200% penalty !!

Thats how they do it.. Its your job to file, if you dont file and they determine you should have, its 200%. 

OK. I'd rather believe my tax accountant thanks. I stopped filing 12 years ago when i no longer needed to work. Not a bean from them about filing. I think your scaring folk. Exclamation marks included.

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, gravity101 said:

 

OK. I'd rather believe my tax accountant thanks. I stopped filing 12 years ago when i no longer needed to work. Not a bean from them about filing. I think your scaring folk. Exclamation marks included.

In a land where doctors don't like to give patients bad news and everyone answers yes to every question, regardless of the correct answer, one has to question if what one is being told is correct or not....every single time.

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

That's not true at all, not even close.

 
All inbound funds are 'potentially' income and may need to be justfied (DTA covered, prior tax paid, savings prior Jan 1, etc etc) to prove they are not. 

Before Jan 1 inbounds possibly were 'savings' under the old loophole and Revenue had no way to really dig into it, so never bothered. 

The onus on the burden of proof now changes, if they choose to enforce the rules stritctly. 

[LivinLOS]

57 minutes ago, tandor said:

it was clearly stated in all the YouTube and Podcasts that whatever funds were in your accounts prior to January 1st 2024 would not be assessable.

 

And this may now need to be proven.. That what has changed, the shift from not needing to prove anything, now becomes needing to establish it is NOT taxable by showing that it was prior savings, DTA covered, etc... 

There are plenty of reasons why an inbound transfer isnt taxable income, but now they may demand that it is proven that it is not taxable income, a task we have not in the past had to do. 
 

[LivinLOS]

32 minutes ago, gravity101 said:

 

OK. I'd rather believe my tax accountant thanks. I stopped filing 12 years ago when i no longer needed to work. Not a bean from them about filing. I think your scaring folk. Exclamation marks included.

https://msnagroup.com/thai-personal-income-tax-penalty-and-surcharge/

 

Quote

A penalty is imposed to a taxpayer by the assessment officer in the event of filing a wrong return or failure to file the return. The rate of penalty is 100% in the case of an inaccurate return and 200% for failure to file a return. The penalties may be reduced by 50% if the taxpayer submits a request in writing and the assessment officer is of the opinion that the taxpayer did not intend to evade tax and cooperated with the officer during the tax audit.

Believe what you like, those are simply the facts 

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 
All inbound funds are 'potentially' income and may need to be justfied (DTA covered, prior tax paid, savings prior Jan 1, etc etc) to prove they are not. 

Before Jan 1 inbounds possibly were 'savings' under the old loophole and Revenue had no way to really dig into it, so never bothered. 

The onus on the burden of proof now changes, if they choose to enforce the rules stritctly. 

Not true, there is no difference between inbound funds remitted today and inbound funds remitted prior to 1 January 2024, they were both equally as likely to be assessable to tax or exempt, or not. 

 

The burden of proof does not change either. The obligation remains with the taxpayer to identify those funds correctly, determine their assessability and to decide whether a tax return should be filed or not. 

 

There was never an automatic assumption that the funds remitted last year were exempt and not earned in the same year, only the possibility existed that they were. Similarly, there is no automatic assumption today that the funds remitted today are assessable, they could just as easily be exempt under DTA rules, exempt because they were earned prior to 1 January 2024 or exempt because they were fully taxed overseas and no Thai tax was due.. 

[JohnnyBD]

58 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Income earned and remitted before 1 January 2024 is not assessable.

Mike, can you please explain. Are you saying that money I have in savings from 2014, before I ever set foot in Thailand is assessable income if remitted to Thailand now in 2024, or in future years? Seems like savings from prior years should be exempt since it's not income. Same for investments, if I sold some property or stocks that I held for many years and only remitted the original cost basis amount and didn't remit any capital gains. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Mike, can you please explain. Are you saying that money I have in savings from 2014, before I ever set foot in Thailand is assessable income if remitted to Thailand now in 2024, or in future years? Seems like savings from prior years should be exempt since it's not income. Same for investments, if I sold some property or stocks that I held for many years and only remitted the original cost basis amount and didn't remit any capital gains. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Those savings are not assessable regardless of when they are remitted, if they were earned prior to 1 January 2024. I wrote it that way purposely because if they are earned before 1 Jan but not remitted, obviously they are not assessible.

[LivinLOS]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Not true, there is no difference between inbound funds remitted today and inbound funds remitted prior to 1 January 2024, they were both equally as likely to be assessable to tax or exempt, or not. 

 

The burden of proof does not change either. The obligation remains with the taxpayer to identify those funds correctly, determine their assessability and to decide whether a tax return should be filed or not. 

 

There was never an automatic assumption that the funds remitted last year were exempt and not earned in the same year, only the possibility existed that they were. Similarly, there is no automatic assumption today that the funds remitted today are assessable, they could just as easily be exempt under DTA rules, exempt because they were earned prior to 1 January 2024 or exempt because they were fully taxed overseas and no Thai tax was due.. 

You seem to be purposefully not understanding the issue.  

In the past inbound funds could always have been claimed to be prior years savings, and as Thailand had no ability to determine that or not it was all ignored. 

Since Jan 1 inbound funds no longer can be written off as simply offshore savings from past years, and hence all inbound funds are potentially taxable here unless we can show them to be one of the multiple reasons why not eg correctly taxed under a DTA, prior savings, etc etc etc etc 

Without the loophole they fall into default taxable unless justifed not taxable, with the loophole as anyone could claim anything was prior savings and untaxable they simply didnt ask. 

If they choose to implement this is anyones guess, my gut is it is far too hard a task for regional tax officrs to be skilled in understanding 67 DTAs, sources of income, what is domestic sourced income etc.. But tax clearanes for extensions of stay renewals ?? Things that add friction and cost money ?? maybe.. 

 

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Mike, can you please explain. Are you saying that money I have in savings from 2014, before I ever set foot in Thailand is assessable income if remitted to Thailand now in 2024, or in future years? Seems like savings from prior years should be exempt since it's not income. Same for investments, if I sold some property or stocks that I held for many years and only remitted the original cost basis amount and didn't remit any capital gains. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

The CG side is more tricky. What you have written is true, as long as the CG can be separated between principle and interest/income. That can be easily possible in the case of stocks for example which can have a year end valuation. But a property CG is harder to value in that way. I do not know at this time what the TRD approach to this will be.