Kid's Thai nationality

[KhaoNiaw]

5 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

I am yet to see an official version that shows any relevant updates of the law.

 

Just going completely from memory, and also no interest in digging out different official versions, wasn't the update that the penalty for not making the choice, i.e. loss of Thai citizenship, was removed? 
I don't believe there was any update that explicitly allows dual citizenship but the possibility of losing Thai citizenship was deliberately removed. 

[Georgealbert]

7 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Regular members here know very well that they should not accept documents from so called lawyers and legal sites in Thailand.  I can think of at least one 'legal' company that advertises on Asean Now that doesn't actually employ any Thai lawyers.

55555

 

So all the different links that you have been provided are wrong or false?

 

But you provide no links, nothing and insist only you are correct.

 

It is easy for you to prove yourself right, post the official documents , you claim, that shows the Nationality Act (no4) 2551 and the Thai constitution 2017, are different, from what has been posted.

[Liquorice]

1 hour ago, MangoKorat said:

Again you post information from a commrecial website.

That is not a commercial website.

Commercial websites are the online presence of businesses with the clear objective of promoting products and enhancing visitor awareness. Their primary goal is to boost sales for the associated brand, and this objective is reflected in both their content and design.

[DrJoy]

3 hours ago, jaxon said:

Kid was born in UK and had a Thai passport previously.  New Thai passport not possible as no Thai ID (not living in Thailand as adult). Question, does he still retain Thai citizenship or does it need some kind of confirmation?  He does not need a new Thai passport I am just wondering if he remains Thai and has a right to one/residency in the future. 

Contact the nearest Thai Emb with the expired Thai passport

[MangoKorat]

3 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

55555

 

So all the different links that you have been provided are wrong or false?

 

But you provide no links, nothing and insist only you are correct.

 

It is easy for you to prove yourself right, post the official documents , you claim, that shows the Nationality Act (no4) 2551 and the Thai constitution 2017, are different, from what has been posted.

I have said from the start that people can believe or not - its up to them.  I have seen the official versions of the law that I believe is still in place. I also stated that I was not prepared to spend hours looking for copies as past experience has shown me that people will still argue with them if I do.

 

You are 100% free to believe the contents of any updated regulations, just as you are free to disbelieve those I have posted - I won't until I see an official version.

 

For me to accept that

[MangoKorat]

2 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

That is not a commercial website.

Commercial websites are the online presence of businesses with the clear objective of promoting products and enhancing visitor awareness. Their primary goal is to boost sales for the associated brand, and this objective is reflected in both their content and design.

It is not a Thai Government website - that do you?

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

25 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Thanks for that but again, its not from a Thai government source.

 

There are mistakes all over the place. The UK government's website on travel to Thailand for example, contains several mistakes/out of date items.

 

I'm not able to find an official Thai government translation of the 2008 amendments to the Nationality Act, but a number of law firms' websites use the same wording contained in the unofficial translation I linked to above.

 

There are also several websites that discuss the changes to the act and state that the new law allows for, but does not require, renunciation of Thai nationality at age 20. 

 

While it is possible that so many law firms have gotten this wrong, the fact that they so consistently use wording identical to the unofficial translation and explain the context in the manner I've proposed, I think by preponderance of evidence this is the correct interpretation.

 

I will concede that this is wrong if an official translation of the 2008 act contains unambiguous wording, as did the original 1992 act, that states that Thai nationality will be lost if no declaration of renunciation of the non-Thai parent's nationality is made at age 20. 

 

 

[Liquorice]

1 hour ago, MangoKorat said:

 

Actually, I'm not going to spend hours looking for the law from an official source with an official translation, simply because the last time I did just that, there were still those who said its not true.

 

You can either believe it or not - personally I couldn't give a monkey's toss.

 

From our own website:

 

Section 14
A person of Thai nationality, who was born of an alien father and has acquired the
nationality of his father according to the law on nationality of his father, or a person who
acquires Thai nationality under Section 12 paragraph 2 is required, if he desires to retain
his other nationality, to make a declaration of his intention to renounce his Thai nationality
within one year after his attaining the age of twenty years, according to such form and in
the manner as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.
If, after consideration of the said intention, the Minister is of opinion that there is
reasonable ground to believe that such person may acquire the nationality of his father or a
foreign nationality, he shall grant permission, except in cases where Thailand is being
engaged in armed conflict, or is in state of war, he may order the dispensation of any
renunciation of Thai nationality.

 

 

https://asean.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Thailand185.pdf

But there has never been any penalty imposed for not revoking Thai nationality in such instances.

 

That section of the Nationality is overshadowed by the 2017 Thai Constitutional Act.
Section 39 states; 

Section 39. No person of Thai nationality shall be deported or prohibited from entering the Kingdom.
The revocation of Thai nationality acquired by birth shall not be permitted.

https://cdc.parliament.go.th/draftconstitution2/download/article/article_20180829093502.pdf

 

So a Thai couldn't revoke his nationality even if he wanted to.

[Liquorice]

3 hours ago, jaxon said:

 

My understanding is that you have to be resident in Thailand to apply for the ID card.  

Correct.

 

This page may be more to your situation.

https://www.thaicitizenship.com/thai-citizenship-when-born-overseas/

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

3 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

But there has never been any penalty imposed for not revoking Thai nationality in such instances.

 

That section of the Nationality is overshadowed by the 2017 Thai Constitutional Act.
Section 39 states; 

Section 39. No person of Thai nationality shall be deported or prohibited from entering the Kingdom.
The revocation of Thai nationality acquired by birth shall not be permitted.

https://cdc.parliament.go.th/draftconstitution2/download/article/article_20180829093502.pdf

 

So a Thai couldn't revoke his nationality even if he wanted to.

 

Revocation by the state is not permitted, but voluntary renunciation at age 20 by a dual national is allowed.

[MangoKorat]

6 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

But there has never any penalty imposed for not revoking Thai nationality in such instances.

 

That section of the Nationality is overshadowed by the 2017 Thai Constitutional Act.
Section 39 states; 

Section 39. No person of Thai nationality shall be deported or prohibited from entering the Kingdom.
The revocation of Thai nationality acquired by birth shall not be permitted.

https://cdc.parliament.go.th/draftconstitution2/download/article/article_20180829093502.pdf

 

So a Thai couldn't revoke his nationality even if he wanted to.

I'm not doubting what you have posted but I note that it is listed as a draft.

[Liquorice]

1 minute ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 

Revocation by the state is not permitted, but voluntary renunciation at age 20 by a dual national is allowed.

Not according to the Thai Constitution. (2017).

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

1 minute ago, Liquorice said:

Not according to the Thai Constitution. (2017).

 

The constitution in clause 39 states that revocation is not permitted. Revocation is an act of the state, not an act of the citizen.  I don't think this clause over-rides the Nationality Act that allows for renunciation of Thai citizenship in certain cases.

[Liquorice]

1 minute ago, MangoKorat said:

I'm not doubting what you have posted but I note that is is listed as a draft.

https://www.admincourt.go.th/admincourt/en/law_detail.php?id=495

Official translation posted by the Thai Administrative courts - same PDF.

[jts-khorat]

3 hours ago, jaxon said:

Kid was born in UK and had a Thai passport previously.  New Thai passport not possible as no Thai ID (not living in Thailand as adult). Question, does he still retain Thai citizenship or does it need some kind of confirmation?  He does not need a new Thai passport I am just wondering if he remains Thai and has a right to one/residency in the future. 

 

The OP wanted a fairly succinct answer to a specific issue with his kid, one that also has only one correct answer in the real world.

 

Now there are three pages of contrary discussion if it is theoretically illegal to have two nationalities after being an adult.

 

What a swamp AseanNow sometimes is! 😆

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

13 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

Correct.

 

This page may be more to your situation.

https://www.thaicitizenship.com/thai-citizenship-when-born-overseas/

 

It is necessary to be physically present while going through the process of having your name entered into the house registration book and to obtain a Thai ID, but there is no physical residency requirement that needs to be satisfied either prior to or after this process.

[Liquorice]

6 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

Revocation is an act of the state, not an act of the citizen.  I don't think this clause over-rides the Nationality Act that allows for renunciation of Thai citizenship in certain cases.

"The revocation of Thai nationality acquired by birth shall not be permitted."

 

That's a pretty strong statement by the State, taking the option away from any Thai citizen.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

Just now, Liquorice said:

"The revocation of Thai nationality acquired by birth shall not be permitted."

 

That's a pretty strong statement by the State, taking the option away from any Thai citizen.

 

As I stated before, revocation is an act of the state. In other words, the state cannot revoke Thai nationality of someone who acquires it at birth. A Thai citizen may renounce Thai nationality as allowed under the Nationality Act. The constitution in this instance is limiting the power of the state, not the power of the citizen.

[Liquorice]

Just now, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 

It is necessary to be physically present while going through the process of having your name entered into the house registration book and to obtain a Thai ID, but there is no physical residency requirement that needs to be satisfied either prior to or after this process.

You need to appear in person at an Amphoe to register in a Tabien Baan and receive an ID card.

No physical residency requirement thereafter and ID cards can be replaced/renewed through a Thai Embassy.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

5 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

You need to appear in person at an Amphoe to register in a Tabien Baan and receive an ID card.

No physical residency requirement thereafter and ID cards can be replaced/renewed through a Thai Embassy.

 

Yes, this was the point of my post, but was not aware of the ability to renew a Thai ID via an embassy. Thanks.

[Liquorice]

6 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 

As I stated before, revocation is an act of the state. In other words, the state cannot revoke Thai nationality of someone who acquires it at birth. A Thai citizen may renounce Thai nationality as allowed under the Nationality Act. The constitution in this instance is limiting the power of the state, not the power of the citizen.

I'm not sufficiently qualified in Thai law to state your assumption is right or wrong.

What I would state is if the State announces revocation of Thai nationally is prohibited, that effectively takes away the rights of the citizen.

 

Why would any Thai want to revoke their nationality when they can have dual nationality.

[Liquorice]

5 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 

Yes, this was the point of my post, but was not aware of the ability to renew a Thai ID via an embassy. Thanks.

Google your Thai Embassy for details.

 

This is just an example;
https://thaiconsulatela.thaiembassy.org/en/page/thai-identification-card

[Neeranam]

19 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

Why would any Thai want to revoke their nationality when they can have dual nationality.

If they wanted Japanese/Chinese/Indian citizenship, for example, or any other nationality that's doesn't permit dual nationality. 

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

13 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

I'm not sufficiently qualified in Thai law to state your assumption is right or wrong.

What I would state is if the State announces revocation of Thai nationally is prohibited, that effectively takes away the rights of the citizen.

 

Why would any Thai want to revoke their nationality when they can have dual nationality.

 

Revocation of citizenship is when the government acts unilaterally to strip a person of their citizenship. This is usually done without the citizen's consent or agreement.

 

Renunciation (or relinquishment) is when the citizen petitions to the government to have their citizenship ended. This requires the intent of the citizen to end the citizenship and for the government to agree.

 

The Thai constitution prevents the Thai government from acting unilaterally in revoking citizenship when acquired at birth. It does not inhibit the citizen's right to petition the government to end their citizenship as provided for in the Nationality Act.

 

This is not something peculiar to Thailand or Thai law, but rather a basic concept within the meaning of the two terms.

 

 

[MangoKorat]

36 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

You need to appear in person at an Amphoe to register in a Tabien Baan and receive an ID card.

No physical residency requirement thereafter and ID cards can be replaced/renewed through a Thai Embassy.

Just to be clear on that.  Am I understanding correctly that a child would have to be physically present in Thailand, go to the Amphur and be put on a Tabien Baan in order to get their first ID card and that an ID card is a requirement to obtain a passport? After that they can renew both ID cards and passports at an Embassy abroad?

[Liquorice]

17 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Just to be clear on that.  Am I understanding correctly that a child would have to be physically present in Thailand, go to the Amphur and be put on a Tabien Baan in order to get their first ID card and that an ID card is a requirement to obtain a passport? After that they can renew both ID cards and passports at an Embassy abroad?

No.

You'd have to be present at an Amphoe to register in a Tabien Baan and obtain the first ID card.

Overseas registration of birth at a Thai Embassy to obtain a Thai birth certificate and Thai passport.

Thereafter, you can renew both ID cards and passports either in Thailand or from a Thai Embassy overseas.

 

[MangoKorat]

1 hour ago, Liquorice said:

https://www.admincourt.go.th/admincourt/en/law_detail.php?id=495

Official translation posted by the Thai Administrative courts - same PDF.

Thank you for that. It does indeed appear to overide the earlier acts, although surprisingly, it goes into very little detail.  To nit pick, I suppose there could be a question as to whether a child with a foreign father is considered to have acquired Thai nationality by birth?

 

Section 39. No person of Thai nationality shall be deported or prohibited
from entering the Kingdom.
The revocation of Thai nationality acquired by birth shall not be permitted.

 

 I am surprised that an entire new constitution fails to determine what constitutes Thai Nationality and makes no reference to any law that identifies such a determination. At least, I can't find such references.

 

The previous acts went in to quite some detail on that matter.

[Maestro]

11 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

 ...I am surprised that an entire new constitution fails to determine what constitutes Thai Nationality and makes no reference to any law that identifies such a determination. At least, I can't find such references...

 

A constitution neve makes references to law.

 

The constitution is the document based on which laws are enacted, not the other way around.

[Liquorice]

17 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

 I am surprised that an entire new constitution fails to determine what constitutes Thai Nationality and makes no reference to any law that identifies such a determination. At least, I can't find such references.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_nationality_law#:~:text=Any person who is a,of the Thailand Nationality Act.

 

 

[Liquorice]

21 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

To nit pick, I suppose there could be a question as to whether a child with a foreign father is considered to have acquired Thai nationality by birth?

In the case of a Thai Mother, who conceived and gave birth, there is absolutely no doubt the child automatically acquires Thai nationality.