51 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I can't help but feel, from what you've written, that you don't fully understand the mechanics of DTA's, nor of a foreign governments sovereign right to levy taxes on residents and/or invoke internationally accepted tax policies. But we'll save that discussion for another time and place.

He's just used to being totally shafted by the IRS because he's American.

After all, most other countries that you don't live in don't require you to still file tax returns.

But they're not going to break their double taxation agreement, although maybe check when it's due to expire.

His social security is definitely exempt in Thailand. On the rest, it's a matter of checking the DTA and maybe he should be paying tax in Thailand and NOT in the US on it. Any tax paid in Thailand can be deducted from tax payable in the US on the same income - or vice versa. It's often a question of who gets to tax it first. That's why double taxation agreements exist...

14 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I don't see how a tax exemption granted by one country should automatically be grandfathered to another country. The taxation risk of losing that exemption was surely one of the factors in the plan to move here in the knowledge that it would be lost.

I'm going to go back and re-read the DTA and look up the definitions.  The Devil is in the details, and the details are in how individual terms are defined at the beginning of the document.  Those are the legal definitions and it is on those definitions that the laws supporting the DTA are based.

 

No plans on doing anything.  Wait & see if people are actually fined for not filing for taxes they don't have to pay.

 

I suspect we'll be needing a new form, for visa extension in 2025, confirming taxes filed.

2 minutes ago, bkk_mike said:

His social security is definitely exempt in Thailand. On the rest, it's a matter of checking the DTA and maybe he should be paying tax in Thailand and NOT in the US on it. Any tax paid in Thailand can be deducted from tax payable in the US on the same income - or vice versa. It's often a question of who gets to tax it first. That's why double taxation agreements exist...

Absolutely correct.  As I said, it will be a pain-in-the-butt, but not the end-of-the-world.

33 minutes ago, connda said:

Ahhh, but it is.  The money that goes into a Roth is "earned income" and subject to taxation - BEFORE - you put it in the Roth.  Any income that Roth generates after that point is "tax exempt."

This is why I'm going to keep pounding on this point.  Is this entire fiasco about side-stepping the deductions and exemptions of your home-country's tax code in order to lay claim to funds that are tax exempt in your own country, therefore effectively taxing that income both in the US and Thailand. 

If that's the game they are going to play, then I'm going to ask cognizant officials in US government to do the same to Thai citizens in the US who are tax residents in the US who remit Thai income to the US.
Now - that will only affect the rich and wealthy Thais, which in turn will get the attention of both the US and the Thai government when the Hi-So Thais are dual-taxed as well and begin to squawk to their own elite leaders. 

This one, the US government wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Because, in the UK there is a system called ISAs, that are a lot like a Roth IRA. You put money into them out of taxed income (restrictions on how much you can put in each year) and the gain and income (like dividends) is exempt from UK tax.

But Americans in the UK get taxed on them by the US government at a punitive rate of about 43% (on the gain) if I remember correctly.

If the rest of your income is taxed in the US, make sure that any amount taken from your Roth IRA is below the tax free allowance in Thailand if you don't want it to be taxed. (Technically the gain on the amount, but you'd have to have the data to back up how much is gain versus original capital).

8 minutes ago, connda said:

I'm going to go back and re-read the DTA and look up the definitions.  The Devil is in the details, and the details are in how individual terms are defined at the beginning of the document.  Those are the legal definitions and it is on those definitions that the laws supporting the DTA are based.

 

For anyone who is interested, here's the US-Thai DTA.

US-Thai-DTA-Agreement.pdf

I'll do what is necessary to avoid jail, penalty, and/or deportation, because I want to stay here.

Mostly wait and see, as this is the international hub of talking 'bout stuff and never doin' nuthin.  Although this is a chance to screw the dirty foreigners, so odds are higher in this case.

 

I manage my investments to stay below the taxable limit.  All income is properly reported but below the threshold to pay tax to Uncle Brandon.  Will Thailand declare that to be "untaxed" and levy tax?  If so, I have no US tax payments to offset so the claim that I can just get it back when I file is incorrect.

 

In the meantime, I'll spend down extra cash I have in Thai accounts, and any funds moved into Thailand will be Wise'd to the wife's bank account.

 

Plans B and C will be prepared.  First would be simply staying outside the country, maybe Cambodia for the required number of days.  Also looking at better options for retirement.  If China offers a retirement visa, we're outa here.

Until full clarification, I will do nothing. If forced to pay Thai taxes, I will move to Cambodia.

I decided not to buy a new car this year.

In 2024 bring in no more than 150K, which is still tax free. File tax return in early 2025 based on 150K and see how things are handled. See if they are honoring the double taxation treaties on taxes already paid overseas and, if so, then possibly bring in more in 2025.  

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Let's find out who is planning to do what:

I have 5 debit cards with zero foreign currency conversion fees, need to pay only the Thai ATM fee of 220 baht. Thai taxman, catch me if you can🤣

Yes, it is the wealthy or super wealthy Thais who will be most affected, as they also currently enjoy the tax exemption for worldwide income, repatriated in a year subsequent to the earned year. I would expect, as you say, they will be the ones who press the issue and if they don't succeed the monies wont be repatriated, which will be a negative for Revenue tax gains and economic activity.

Thai resident, super wealthy foreigners, who are a much rarer species, probably can protect their assets and depending on their visa, may even still be exempt. And if all else fails, due to their resources, they can relocate to greener pastures.

Resident foreigners, bringing in income, live, were always, if resident more than 180 days in a tax year, technically taxable here, a fact, I suspect, which went largely under everyone's radar, including the authorities. However, if their income derives and is taxable in a DTT jurisdiction, it is very likely that the tax deducted would be greater than Thai tax liability, so, therefore, no change.

The Thai income tax is gradually graded from 5 towards 35%, with attractive  exemptions. For instance, a person, who is over 65, married with one child, has an allowance of 460,000. That person, say with an income of 1,000,000, because of the grading bands, would have a liability of, maybe,  60 or 70,000 baht, which would be, most likely, below taxes levied on similar income in most Western countries.

1 hour ago, connda said:

For anyone who is interested, here's the US-Thai DTA.

US-Thai-DTA-Agreement.pdf

I just reread the definitions and terms of the US-Thai DTA that are applicable to pensions.  The language is explicit, but there is some contentious language:

Article 3
Definitions
h) the terms "a Contracting State" and "the other Contracting
State" mean the United States or Thailand, as the context
requires;
i) the term "tax" means United States tax or Thai tax, as the
context requires;

ARTICLE 20
Pensions and Social Security Payments
1. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 21 (Government Service), pensions and other similar remuneration paid to a resident of a Contracting State in consideration of past employment shall be taxable only in that State.
2. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, social security benefits and other similar public pensions paid by a Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State or a citizen of the United States shall be taxable only in the first- mentioned State.

 

So my Social Security is exempt (Article 20, 2.)

The tax status of my US pension is interpreted as per "residence" and in my case I can be declared a "resident" of both the United States and Thailand.
That is defined here under Article 4, Residence)
Article 4
Residence
2. Where by reason of the provisions of paragraph 1, an individual is a resident of both Contracting States, then his status shall be determined as follows:

 

a) he shall be deemed to be a resident of the State in which he
has a permanent home available to him; if he has a
permanent home available to him in both States, he shall be
deemed to be a resident of the State with which his personal
and economic relations are closer (center of vital interests);

 

b) if the State in which he has his center of vital interests cannot
be determined, or if he does not have a permanent home
available to him in either State, he shall be deemed to be a
resident of the State in which he has an habitual abode;

 

c) if he has an habitual abode in both States or in neither of
them, he shall be deemed to be a resident of the State of
which he is a national;

 

d) if he is a national of both States or of neither of them, the
competent authorities of the Contracting States shall settle
the question by mutual agreement.

Now my US pension as per Article 20, 1)
The sticky question is, where are you a resident?  In my case, both the US and now according to Thailand I'm a "resident" of Thailand BUT only for taxation.
So - which takes precedence? See below:

(a) Bingo - I only have a permanent home in US. Read my visa stamp - I am only a visitor temporarily visiting my wife. And, my "personal and economic relations" are closer to the US:  My permanent address for finances, taxation, ID, and voting is in the US, SSA and pension come from the US, my biological family is in the US, I am only a "temporary visitor" in Thailand, and if forced to leave Thailand, I will return to the US to my US "permanent home" to reside with my biological (US) family.

(b) This is Non-applicable as  I have a permanent home in the US so I'm deemed a resident of the US as per sub-paragraph (a).  Sub-paragraph (a) superceded sub-paragraph (b).  And as per sub-paragraph (a) I have no "Permanent Home" here in Thailand as I'm only a visitor, I only have a "Permanent Home" in the United States.

 

(c) I have a habitual abode Thailand, but sub-paragraph (a) supercedes sub-paragraph (b) so sub-paragraph (c) is Non-applicable.  And as a "visitor" is it actually my habitual abode?

 

(d) Read that - which boils down to if there is a problem, then I go on a letter writing campaign.
Possible problems:
What takes precedence under Article 4, paragraph 2?
I assume that (a) takes precedent over (b) which takes precedent over (c) which takes precedent over (d). There is a possible point of contention because it is not clearly defined.  But they logically seem to be written in precedent order.
And
"Permanent Home" and "Habitual Abode" are not defined in Article 3: Definitions.  They should be.  That could be another point of contention.

So for you US pensioners out there - this is the thought exercise you're going to individually need to do based on your own home-county's DTA.  The tax experts aren't going to do it for you unless you pay them.

27 minutes ago, Chri said:

And if all else fails, due to their resources, they can relocate to greener pastures.

Hello Dubai.  Guess that isn't so "green", but it is very welcoming to the Uber-Riche.
Or London.  It's nice and green, well, when you can see through the fog.

Deleted

Reported post removed.

3 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

 Income earned in a US Roth account is never taxed by the IRS if taken as a qualified distribution.  It is probably assessable in the eyes of the TRD.  I don't think you can state that such income is "taxed" in the USA and thus shouldn't be taxed in Thailand.

 

3 hours ago, connda said:

Ahhh, but it is.  The money that goes into a Roth is "earned income" and subject to taxation - BEFORE - you put it in the Roth.  Any income that Roth generates after that point is "tax exempt."

I made no claim that Roth contributions are assessable in the eyes of TRD.  I limited my statement to strictly the income generated on the contributions inside the Roth account.  Your claim that such income is "tax exempt" is true for US taxes.  I'm very convinced that the TRD will pay no heed to the fact that such income is exempt from US taxation.  The TRD won't care if the income is generated on pre-tax or post-tax assets.  I should add that only the income generated inside the Roth after Jan. 1, '24 would be assessable.

Wait and see what happens then pay any fines if you need to. I already pay 25%+ on my US income. If they want up to 10% I will tolerate that and remit no more than 30,000/month. Any extra I need I'll sneak through my wife's account which is how I transfer all my money anyways. I was going to build a small house next year for about 1.5 mil baht but I will be sitting on my newly purchased land until I know more.

 

If they want more than that I'll take this is a cue to find a way to live less time in Thailand, something I've wanted to do for a long time anyways but was never motivated enough to do. 

2 hours ago, Dioj said:

In 2024 bring in no more than 150K, which is still tax free. File tax return in early 2025 based on 150K and see how things are handled. See if they are honoring the double taxation treaties on taxes already paid overseas and, if so, then possibly bring in more in 2025.  

Don't forget that you have a 60K personal allowance as well as the 1st 150K being taxed at 0% so you can bring in at least 210K each year. 

 

My "Plan" is to:-

• Remit 210K (60K personal allowance + 150K 0% tax) to the GF 
• Remit 235K (same 210K as above + 25K as I purchase health insurance) for me 
• Send the GF 100K for her Birthday & Xmas (at worse this would be taxed at 5%).
• Use savings already in Thailand to cover the rest of the money I need 
• Spend 2026 as a Non Tax Resident so I can remit the 25% tax free lump sum from my pension & (possibly) proceeds from the sale of my house then go for the LTR Wealthy Pensioner visa  

Oh & I'll also be returning to Thailand on Monday with £7,500 in my pockets 🙂

1 hour ago, gamb00ler said:

 

I made no claim that Roth contributions are assessable in the eyes of TRD.  I limited my statement to strictly the income generated on the contributions inside the Roth account.  Your claim that such income is "tax exempt" is true for US taxes.  I'm very convinced that the TRD will pay no heed to the fact that such income is exempt from US taxation.  The TRD won't care if the income is generated on pre-tax or post-tax assets.  I should add that only the income generated inside the Roth after Jan. 1, '24 would be assessable.

I agree with you.  So in that case, start looking at the US-Thai DTA for guidance.

Actually I just looked at it.  There is next to nothing regarding capital gains.
Realistically, when you cash out a Roth, your brokerage isn't going to show an assessment for capital gains because they don't exist for a Roth IRA.
So what are you showing on a brokerage balance sheet?  A debit from a non-taxable account that doesn't show capital gains.  The Thai Revenue department can only work with what you give them.  Anyway - probably a good question for an accountant. 

I only have a traditional IRA.  It will probably go to my wife when I die so I'll let her figure it out. 

The point is of course how the new tax rule will affect most of the foreigners.

 

But the main point of consideration is that wheather one is concerned or not, one may have to deal with the bureaucracy any how to file some absurd new document, wheather one is taxed or not

 

That's where the problem could arise as we all see how depending on the clerk who gets the file, he or she can freely say that this or this document is "no good" not valid etc. When one sees the absurdity with immigration or other agencies who invent their rules daily, or often just cannot understand the documents submitted, the worst can be unfortunately expected.

 

Just see how absurdly they handle the LTR visa for exemple as often they ask for extra documents because they just cannot understand the documents submitted despite all the translations etc in english that they ask. Unless of course extra documents are just asked to make a fuss and create trouble for those awful farangs who are full of money that does create envy and jealousy with the clerks behind their counters or desks.

 

As mentioned, if you can, sell out and leave to another Asian country. No point once retired to be harassed as such by the bureaucracy or immigration in Thailand. Sad as it is a lovely country with some lovely people all over. Times change so leave.

54 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

I was going to build a small house next year for about 1.5 mil baht but I will be sitting on my newly purchased land until I know more.

The Thai government is shooting themselves in the foot.  How many foreigners are now going to defer or simply not make purchases they had planned to make?

Thailand can chose to make it's money from foreigners in one of two ways:  Sales taxes or income on remitted foreign funds.  Start taxing remitted funds and foreigners stop buying and they keep their funds transfers under the tax threshold - so all the Thai government is doing is screwing itself out of foreign funds transfers as well as losing sales tax revenues.  It's a lose-lose proposition. 

These are not the brightest bulbs in the box of light-bulbs. 

I absolutely understand 100% - Tax your own citizens.  But start categorizing foreigners who have no rights to permanent live in Thailand or become citizens as "tax resident" and watch what happens in the long-term.  They will lose tax revenues in the long-term.

10 minutes ago, SingAPorn said:

But the main point of consideration is that wheather one is concerned or not, one may have to deal with the bureaucracy any how to file some absurd new document, wheather one is taxed or not

For myself?  My transferred funds will be well below the taxable threshold.  So what I'll do is give my wife my bank books and tell her that all the taxes taken out of my bank accounts for tax on interest income is hers and then put her to work to retrieve it.  She'll be like a pit-bull.

Again - I have let all of that tax on interest income slide. I just declare the interest income on my US returns and let the Thai government keep what they withhold. However - now that they force me to file?  Their loss.  They'll end up giving my wife the money that I allow them to keep because I don't consider it worth the hassle to file the income tax paperwork.  Make me file it?  Ok - wife will get every satang that the Thai government takes out of my accounts.

So for everyone here who has a bank account that accrues interest income?  If you're forced to file tax returns for the ludicrous dog-and-pony show, then go claw back all your interest income.  Especially if you are over 65 and retired.  But remember to declare it on your home-country tax returns.

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

Don't forget that you have a 60K personal allowance as well as the 1st 150K being taxed at 0% so you can bring in at least 210K each year. 

Thank you. I thought the 150K already took into account the personal allowance? Anyway, good news if it doesn't. 
 

Also, on the Revenue Department website (link below) it says the personal allowance is only 30K for a single tax payer. It's 60K if you're married and/or filing jointly. So I believe that means you can only bring in 180K tax free as a single individual tax payer. 
 

https://rd.go.th/english/6045.html

1 minute ago, Dioj said:

Thank you. I thought the 150K already took into account the personal allowance? Anyway, good news if it doesn't. 
 

Also, on the Revenue Department website (link below) it says the personal allowance is only 30K for a single tax payer. It's 60K if you're married and/or filing jointly. So I believe that means you can only bring in 180K tax free as a single individual tax payer. 
 

https://rd.go.th/english/6045.html

You may wish to read this:

 

 

 

5 hours ago, bkk_mike said:

Any tax paid in Thailand can be deducted from tax payable in the US on the same income - or vice versa. It's often a question of who gets to tax it first. That's why double taxation agreements exist...

but isn't the amount of tax paid in Thailand dependent on the amount paid in the US? Given that I don't see how one can apply towards the other.

1 hour ago, SingAPorn said:

That's where the problem could arise as we all see how depending on the clerk who gets the file, he or she can freely say that this or this document is "no good" not valid etc. When one sees the absurdity with immigration or other agencies who invent their rules daily, or often just cannot understand the documents submitted, the worst can be unfortunately expected.

 

Exactly. They're going to fail so hard they may give up. That's why many of us are waiting to see what happens.

 

Remember Thailand is a country which builds new roads then digs them up the next day for utilities because they can't manage basic communication between departments.

8 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

You may wish to read this:

 

 

Thank you. I'm still a bit confused though why it only says 30,000 Baht as the personal allowance on the RD website link I provided?

6 hours ago, connda said:

So let's put our heads together here guys and gals.  What we are really worried about is Thailand taxing US income that is already filed with the US IRS and taxed in the US - and - if that happens then it is in violation of the US-Thai Dual-Tax Agreement - and - it is morally wrong.  What we should be thinking - collectively - is: if that happens, who in the Untied States do we collectively contact. Because the noise the Thai government is making is: "We don't care about Dual-Tax Agreements and we are coming after your income that has been taxed in your homeland."

Nobody is saying they are going to tax you even after paying taxes in the US. Are you out of your mind? But you have to prove it by filing a tax return, that you are exempt and get a tax credit for the taxes you have already paid.