Poll: Do you feel sympathetic to Putin? Did he really have no choice?

[BobBKK]

On 5/13/2024 at 4:57 AM, Robert Paulson said:

Americans are the most highly propagandized population in the world. The difference between an American and a Russian or Chinese person is the Russian or Chinese know they are being propagandized. 

 

Correct - the news channels in all countries have lost any sense of ethics, and all sides try to brainwash their base. I agree the USA is way in front in that regard.

[Wobblybob]

Just now, BobBKK said:

 Truth is the first casualty of war, and both sides lie and spin - of course!  but this could have been avoided if Ukraine had implemented the 2014 agreement agreed with Germany and France as guarantors. Donbas with a degree of 'special status' and neutrality in the face of NATO's eastward push. But they chose to be a pawn of USA hegemony - a very foolish choice that costs Ukraine 100,000s of deaths... for nothing.

This USA-interfering strategy didn't work out too well in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam and all the other places, did it?  The same will apply to Ukraine - better peace now than lose it all. The suffering is appalling. 

Victim blaming and whataboutery all rolled into one. NATO didn't push anywhere, countries join NATO for security reasons from the land grabbing Putin and his Henchmen, and if that's the best excuse you can come up with it hasn't gone well for Putin has it, there are more countries in NATO now than before Putin decided to go country shopping!

Putin created the wars in the Donbas Regions, but when you follow the Russian lies you will believe anything the the Kremlin pumps out!

[transam]

2 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

Same here, ex. GF was in Pete - the most beautiful city on earth, IMHO. I worked on an exchange programme at a Moscow hospital (hospital management professional) and went often. People who have never been do not understand or have a clue about Russians or Russian history. Russians want peace and stability like everyone else, but the USA, particularly, loves to poke the bear and try to convert the whole world to the "USA way". It's not going to happen.

What a load, from a born again Russian..........🙄

Totally putting to one side, HIS leader's murderous aggression to innocent Ukrainian citizens.........😒

You, should be ashamed of yourself.......

[Wobblybob]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

What a load, from a born again Russian..........🙄

Totally putting to one side, HIS leader's murderous aggression to innocent Ukrainian citizens.........😒

You, should be ashamed of yourself.......

He is blaming Ukraine for Russia illegally invading them, how low can you go.

[transam]

Just now, Wobblybob said:

He is blaming Ukraine for Russia illegally invading them, how low can you go.

For sure, there are some weird/thick characters posting on this forum..........🤔

 

[BobBKK]

1 hour ago, transam said:

For sure, there are some weird/thick characters posting on this forum..........🤔

 

Weird and thick? You would be astounded by my credentials, but I do not engage in low-level ad hominem attacks. I get that you don't understand the history, and I'll leave it at that. 

[Wobblybob]

1 minute ago, BobBKK said:

Weird and thick? You would be astounded by my credentials, but I do not engage in low-level ad hominem attacks. I get that you don't understand the history, and I'll leave it at that. 

I'm astounded by your posts. 

[BobBKK]

1 hour ago, Wobblybob said:

He is blaming Ukraine for Russia illegally invading them, how low can you go.

 
You do not understand the history or causes. It's a sad reflection of the world today - but it is what it is. Let's see what happens.

[BobBKK]

1 minute ago, Wobblybob said:

I'm astounded by your posts. 

Thank you. I think I have a grasp of it after a lifetime of traveling, much of it in Russia and Ukraine. Have you been?  how did you find it?

[Wobblybob]

Just now, BobBKK said:

 
You do not understand the history or causes. It's a sad reflection of the world today - but it is what it is. Let's see what happens.

Patronising will not help other posters to take you seriously, Russia invaded Ukraine because of Putins excuse at the time to de-natzify Ukraine, then his excuse changed to all Ukrainians are Satanists. You make apologies for Putin by all means, but we see you!

[Wobblybob]

3 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

Thank you. I think I have a grasp of it after a lifetime of traveling, much of it in Russia and Ukraine. Have you been?  how did you find it?

I've never been to the Sun but I know it's hot. 

[Gweiloman]

2 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

I've never been to the Sun but I know it's hot. 

Wow. That’s so… profound. My dog’s suitably impressed.

[Wobblybob]

Just now, Gweiloman said:

Wow. That’s so… profound. My dog’s suitably impressed.

Is that where you get your facts from Facto Fido?

[transam]

2 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Wow. That’s so… profound. My dog’s suitably impressed.

If your dog has to listen to you all day, I am not surprised......🤐

[connda]

This has been in the public domain since published by Wikileaks.
Then US Ambassador Bill Burns sent this diplomatic cable on Feb 1, 2008:

"NYET MEANS NYET: RUSSIA’S NATO ENLARGEMENT REDLINES
Foreign Minister Lavrov and other senior officials have reiterated strong opposition, stressing that Russia would view further eastward expansion as a potential military threat. NATO enlargement, particularly to Ukraine, remains “an emotional and neuralgic” issue for Russia, but strategic policy considerations also underlie strong opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia. In Ukraine, these include fears that the issue could potentially split the country in two, leading to violence or even, some claim, civil war, which would force Russia to decide whether to intervene."
Source:  https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html and various other internet links if you search on "Nyet means nyet: Russia's NATO enlargement redlines"

 

This is in response to the security assurances against NATO expansion given to Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev from George H.W. Bush, Hans-Dietrich Genscher, Helmut Kohl, Robert Gates, François Mitterrand, Margaret Thatcher, John Major, and Manfred Woerner and various other US, British, French, and German leaders and diplomats. The promise by U.S. Secretary of State James Baker on on February 9, 1990 was that "NATO would not move one inch to the East" in return for the Soviet pull back allowing for the reunification of Soviet occupied East Germany with West Germany.
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

 

This was reiterated by Putin on February 10, 2007 at Munich Security Conference, and again during a December 17, 2021 meeting with the US where Russia forwarded a proposed draft security agreement precluding NATO's expansion to Ukraine and the deployment of the military alliance's weapons which Russia considered to be an existential threat and which was rejected by US.  The logic here was Russia didn't want NATO and NATO weapons deployed on it's border.  Imagine if an alliance of Russia, China, and BRICS+ nations push up against the US border and threatened to deploy weapons to Mexico, Latin America, and the Caribbean?
What would happen? Exactly what happened in 1962 "Cuban Missile Crisis." 

This could have been avoided had the West been sincere about the two Minsk Agreements, but both France and Germany had signed in bad faith.  They never planned to allow them to be implements.  Instead as this quote for Reuters, "Putin had been asked about remarks by former German chancellor Angela Merkel, one of the agreements' sponsors, who told the Zeit magazine in an interview published on Wednesday that the 2014 agreement had been "an attempt to give Ukraine time" - which it had used to become more able to defend itself," in other word they signed the Minsk Agreement to give Ukraine time to built its military - not to seek a peaceful resolution to the then civil war in Eastern Ukraine.

Then there was one last chance to settle this diplomatically during the Russian - Ukraine peace talks in April 2022 in Istanbul, Turkey which were acknowledged and initialed by both side - until Boris Johnson showed up and torpedoed the negotiations - then it was "War On!" 

So don't say this was unprovoked.  It could have been resolved by not expanding NATO all the way up to Russian-Ukraine negotiations in April 2022. 
There is a long history with the West reneging on it's promises and guarantees to Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union and openly seeking the complete break-up of Russia, which would be an existential treat to any other country on Earth.  Again - there is no way the US would allow a military alliance of foreign countries to place bases on its border - that would be a provocation for war.  But it is always different when the US and the West is doing that to other sovereign countries. 

For those 87% of you?   You don't study history or Geo-politics.  86% of you read and watch Western news and all you get is the "official accepted narratives" which support Western unipolar expansionism globally. And all you do is parrot the slogans:  "Russian aggression," and "Unprovoked war."  Sloganism is propaganda people.  And it's effective when applied to people who can't think or do analysis on their own.
Don't ya'll ever stop to think that sovereign countries that are not aligned with Western countries (like Thailand) don't want any other country's militaries on their borders threatening them to do their bidding?

Now before you call me, "Putin's Puppet?"  No - I'm Anti-War veteran.  I believe in diplomacy.  I believe in peaceful resolutions to conflict.  And there are two sides to the Russia-Ukraine conflict, not just one.  And this could have been put to bed in April 2022 with Ukraine just ceding Crimea to Russia and accepting neutrality.  Now?  This could well end up in WWIII and global nuclear war.  I swear that many of you 87% want exactly that - World War.

Then what are you gonna do?  Because when World War comes, China will come down on Russia's side, and China will then exert it's own influence over Asia and South East Asia as it takes back Taiwan and all its claims in the South China Sea. Why not - the West will be stretch across the globe in a multi-front war which it is not prepared to fight - which leaves only nukes.  Then we all die.

Seriously - Where do you plan on going when the war breaks out and Chinese troops arrive in Thailand?  Gonna try to bribe your way on to one of the over-packed flights out of Thailand, and then go fight for your homeland? Or stay here and fight an insurgency against the Chinese? I seriously doubt it.  But really - what are you going to do, because most of you want war.  Best of luck with that.

 

 

[JoseThailand]

11 minutes ago, connda said:

This has been in the public domain since published by Wikileaks.
Then US Ambassador Bill Burns sent this diplomatic cable on Feb 1, 2008:

"NYET MEANS NYET: RUSSIA’S NATO ENLARGEMENT REDLINES
Foreign Minister Lavrov and other senior officials have reiterated strong opposition, stressing that Russia would view further eastward expansion as a potential military threat. NATO enlargement, particularly to Ukraine, remains “an emotional and neuralgic” issue for Russia, but strategic policy considerations also underlie strong opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia. In Ukraine, these include fears that the issue could potentially split the country in two, leading to violence or even, some claim, civil war, which would force Russia to decide whether to intervene."
Source:  https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html and various other internet links if you search on "Nyet means nyet: Russia's NATO enlargement redlines"

 

This is in response to the security assurances against NATO expansion given to Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev from George H.W. Bush, Hans-Dietrich Genscher, Helmut Kohl, Robert Gates, François Mitterrand, Margaret Thatcher, John Major, and Manfred Woerner and various other US, British, French, and German leaders and diplomats. The promise by U.S. Secretary of State James Baker on on February 9, 1990 was that "NATO would not move one inch to the East" in return for the Soviet pull back allowing for the reunification of Soviet occupied East Germany with West Germany.
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

 

This was reiterated by Putin on February 10, 2007 at Munich Security Conference, and again during a December 17, 2021 meeting with the US where Russia forwarded a proposed draft security agreement precluding NATO's expansion to Ukraine and the deployment of the military alliance's weapons which Russia considered to be an existential threat and which was rejected by US.  The logic here was Russia didn't want NATO and NATO weapons deployed on it's border.  Imagine if an alliance of Russia, China, and BRICS+ nations push up against the US border and threatened to deploy weapons to Mexico, Latin America, and the Caribbean?
What would happen? Exactly what happened in 1962 "Cuban Missile Crisis." 

This could have been avoided had the West been sincere about the two Minsk Agreements, but both France and Germany had signed in bad faith.  They never planned to allow them to be implements.  Instead as this quote for Reuters, "Putin had been asked about remarks by former German chancellor Angela Merkel, one of the agreements' sponsors, who told the Zeit magazine in an interview published on Wednesday that the 2014 agreement had been "an attempt to give Ukraine time" - which it had used to become more able to defend itself," in other word they signed the Minsk Agreement to give Ukraine time to built its military - not to seek a peaceful resolution to the then civil war in Eastern Ukraine.

Then there was one last chance to settle this diplomatically during the Russian - Ukraine peace talks in April 2022 in Istanbul, Turkey which were acknowledged and initialed by both side - until Boris Johnson showed up and torpedoed the negotiations - then it was "War On!" 

So don't say this was unprovoked.  It could have been resolved in April 2022. 
There is a long history with the West reneging on it's promises and guarantees to Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union and openly seeking the complete break-up of Russia, which would be an existential treat to any other country on Earth.  Again - there is no way the US would allow a military alliance of foreign countries to place bases on its border - that would be a provocation for war.  But it is always different when the US and the West is doing that to other sovereign countries. 

For those 87% of you?   You don't study history or Geo-politics.  86% of you read and watch Western news and all you get is the "official accepted narratives" which support Western unipolar expansionism globally. And all you do is parrot the slogans:  "Russian aggression," and "Unprovoked war."  Sloganism is propaganda people.  And it's effective when applied to people who can't think and analysis on their own.
Don't ya'll ever stop to think that sovereign countries that are not aligned with Western countries (like Thailand) don't want any other country's militaries on their borders threatening them to do their bidding?

Now before you call me, "Putin's Puppet?"  No - I'm Anti-War veteran.  I believe in diplomacy.  I believe in peaceful resolutions to conflict.  And there are two sides to the Russia-Ukraine conflict, not just one.  And this could have been put to bed in April 2022 with Ukraine just ceding Crimea to Russia and accepting neutrality.  Now?  This could well end up in WWIII and global nuclear war.  I swear that many of you 87% want exactly that - World War.

Then what are you gonna do?  Because when World War comes, China will come down on Russia's side, and China will then exert it's own influence over Asia and South East Asia as it takes back Taiwan and all its claims in the South China Sea. Why not - the West will be stretch across the globe in a multi-front war which it is not prepared to fight - which leaves only nukes.  Then we all die.

Seriously - Where do you plan on going when the war breaks out and Chinese troops arrive in Thailand?  Gonna try to bribe your way on to one of the over-packed flights out of Thailand, and then go fight for your homeland? Or stay here and fight an insurgency against the Chinese? I seriously doubt it.  But really - what are you going to do, because most of you want war.  Best of luck with that.

 

Tell me one thing - how did the invasion of Ukraine stop the NATO expansion to the east? It did the exact opposite - accelerated it! Finland and Sweden, who refused to join NATO for decades, now joined it in a very speedy manner. Territory-wise, it is the biggest expansion of NATO since it's inception!

 

 

[BobBKK]

32 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

I've never been to the Sun but I know it's hot. 

So you do study a bit then... that's a start Bob!  Keep going is my encouragement

Now that you know the Sun is hot, what about that other round thing in the sky? I think it's called the Moon (but it's not made of cheese).  🌛

[BobBKK]

2 minutes ago, JoseThailand said:

 

Tell me one thing - how did the invasion of Ukraine stop the NATO expansion? It did the exact opposite - accelerated it! Finland and Sweden, who refused to join NATO for decades, now joined it in a very speedy manner. Territory-wise, it is the biggest expansion of NATO since it's inception!

 False equivalence - Finland and Sweden were always allied to USA/Europe and Ukraine to Russia (Slavs and all that). I can confidently say Ukraine will never be in NATO or WW3 will be here, and if that happens, it will all be irrelevant.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

So you do study a bit then... that's a start Bob!  Keep going is my encouragement

Now that you know the Sun is hot, what about that other round thing in the sky? I think it's called the Moon (but it's not made of cheese).  🌛

Though it would seem, that round thing on top of your shoulders could be............

[Wobblybob]

2 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

So you do study a bit then... that's a start Bob!  Keep going is my encouragement

Now that you know the Sun is hot, what about that other round thing in the sky? I think it's called the Moon (but it's not made of cheese).  🌛

Gosh you've been to the Moon too, you've been everywhere man.🎼

[connda]

2 minutes ago, JoseThailand said:

 

Tell me one thing - how did the invasion of Ukraine stop the NATO expansion? It did the exact opposite - accelerated it! Finland and Sweden, who refused to join NATO for decades, now joined it in a very speedy manner. Territory-wise, it is the biggest expansion of NATO since it's inception!

If you can't understand it, then you are simply incapable of independent thinking and analyses of Geo-politics.
I can't help you.  I can't help ideologues who can only perceive one side of an argument or dispute - which is why the Ukraine conflict is where its at.  If you can only see one side, or if you only accept one side's narrative - you'll never understand.  Sorry.  Now I'll let the "Rage against Russia" continue unabated. 

[Wobblybob]

2 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 False equivalence - Finland and Sweden were always allied to USA/Europe and Ukraine to Russia (Slavs and all that). I can confidently say Ukraine will never be in NATO or WW3 will be here, and if that happens, it will all be irrelevant.

Sour grapes post, Finland borders Russia so of course it matters to Putin! Stop trying to downplay the significance.

[BobBKK]

8 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Sour grapes post, Finland borders Russia so of course it matters to Putin! Stop trying to downplay the significance.

 Ohhh Bob noooooo...  Finland has been in the EU, with Sweden, since 1995 - keep up, Bob. They were never in Russia's corner. BTW nor should they be.

Russia has never liked Finland since Lenin's time (you might need to open a history book to understand this little slice of humour). So, let's have no more about Finland and Sweden as they are irrelevant to the topic.

[Wobblybob]

3 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 Ohhh Bob noooooo...  Finland has been in the EU, with Sweden, since 1995 - keep up, Bob. They were never in Russia's corner. BTW nor should they be.

Russia has never liked Finland since Lenin's time (you might need to open a history book to understand this little slice of humour). So, let's have no more about Finland and Sweden as they are irrelevant to the topic.

What's the EU got to do with NATO, they might be irrelevant to your narrative but I'm sure they're not irrelevant to Putin! 

BTW, you are in no position to patronise anyone, we have all read your posts!

[Will B Good]

13.7% sympathetic.....WT??

[fasteddie]

On 5/20/2024 at 4:07 AM, bamnutsak said:

The question is, what happens after Putin dies?

 

I watched this film over the weekend, awesome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KWg2nTYmk8

 

 

 

 

This reminds me of the Monty Python skit "Spanish Inquisition".

Well I didn't expect that.

[Jingthing]

On 5/16/2024 at 3:04 PM, BobBKK said:

 I don't believe that is true - a deal was signed, and Boris destroyed it. 

A surrender deal.

 

[BobBKK]

44 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

A surrender deal.

 

 
A compromise that would have saved thousands of lives. It won't end well for Ukraine, unfortunately, and as Professor Mearsheimer, University of Chicago, pointed out countless times, a deal back then would have left Ukraine almost in one piece and saved hundreds of thousands of useless deaths.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 
A compromise that would have saved thousands of lives. It won't end well for Ukraine, unfortunately, and as Professor Mearsheimer, University of Chicago, pointed out countless times, a deal back then would have left Ukraine almost in one piece and saved hundreds of thousands of useless deaths.

Would you be happy giving half your country away to an invader......?  🤔

[BobBKK]

2 hours ago, Wobblybob said:

Patronising will not help other posters to take you seriously, Russia invaded Ukraine because of Putins excuse at the time to de-natzify Ukraine, then his excuse changed to all Ukrainians are Satanists. You make apologies for Putin by all means, but we see you!

 I'm not patronising, Bob. I just have a little humour, which is beyond you, obviously. I have never heard Putin claim Ukrainians are Satanists. By the way, talk for yourself, Bob. None of this  "we." We are all individual posters with individual opinions—I never say "we"; I talk about my observations and experiences.