British Pensioner Struggles with Frozen Pension in Thailand

[sandyf]

On 6/1/2024 at 12:27 PM, sambum said:

 

I think she will receive her current pension for a period of time (3 months?) and after that time she will get her new pension which will be backdated to the date that she arrived back in the UK.

Not quite right. It depends on when you tell them and if timed right can be first payment after getting back.

[Georgealbert]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

I am well aware of the history and it is nothing to do with being "fair" and anyone who thinks that way is effectively saying it is acceptable to discriminate.

Goverment revenue to support the state pension is by default index linked so any entitlement to a pension from "actual" contributions should be index linked otherwise it is legalised fraud. 

 

As expected, nothing, and I never ever suggested or said ii was fair. I posted the facts snd history, nothing else, so stop trying to put false words in my mouth, because you can’t support your fake claim that I support discrimination.

As I said before I post facts, what I clearly can’t do is help you understand those real facts. 

 

Have a good day, I out of this, but remember the old saying when in a hole stop digging.

 

[vukovar77]

On 6/1/2024 at 1:36 PM, Sheryl said:

 

OP clearly states she has decided to go back to UK, but is unable to fly due to her current physical condition. Awaiting medical clearance to fly.

 

Problem is that she (and her family) left it way too long. People do this, they keep trying to hang on here with insufficient funds and no way of meeting health care needs, apparently just hoping nothing will happen. Inevitably something does happen, and the need to go back becomes urgent but at that point they may be unable to travel due to illness.

 

Seen it a lot oer the years.

Problem is that insurrance companies in LOS does not cover many health conditions if you are over 60-65.From my point of view it is the main issue for older expat population live here.

[Thaindrew]

On 6/1/2024 at 12:32 PM, Homburg said:

Much of the pension money paid by UK government to pensioners resident in the UK is recovered through taxes paid by the pensioners in the UK.  These taxes are recovered through a variety of means - Council Tax, VAT, fuel taxes, IPT, taxes on the businesses that pensioners buy from (including supermarkets), etc.  These taxes cannot be recovered for non-resident pensioners who therefore cost the government more than resident pensioners, so the government "freezes" these pensions in order to compensate.

on the flip side though the UK Government will still want you to pay inheritance tax ... so you cannot have a few hundred quid in pension but please send us 40% of what you have when you die ... at least align all the different benefits / taxed 

[Surasak]

On 6/1/2024 at 4:58 PM, roo860 said:

Probably best to not tell them and use family or friends address?

Quite agree. but when the one who said yes, OK you can do that, then two years later says. 'I've had people knocking on my door asking where you are'. I knew it was a lie, but as a great distance separated us, what was I to do?

[cnx101]

On 6/1/2024 at 12:31 PM, ronster said:

I doubt she would get much in the UK after being away so long .

I returned during COVID and tried to claim disability benefits as I can't work due to my disabilities. Was told I couldn't get anything from any place I applied as I would need be in the country 2 years before being able to claim .

Is her son allowed to run a car rental business ? Thought a bunch of Russians got arrested last month for that 😀

Yes I’ve known people with same problem they couldn’t claim anything for two years

[Surasak]

On 6/1/2024 at 9:08 PM, Liverpool Lou said:

No, they do not reduce state pensions, the payment remains at the amount paid before leaving the UK.

Prove me wrong, Lou.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

Seems to me that many Expats here dont think hard enough about what they will do when they are in their 80s. Whilst I sympathise with the Lady and understand those who support her, it does seem clear that she has not planned ahead - and now reality has hit home hard.  Whatever you think of the UK Pension arrangements (and I agree they are harsh), they have been that way for a long time and she did not plan ahead.  I have met many Expats here in the same position - mid-late 70s and still not planning ahead. 

 

IMO health insurance here in Thailand is a scam - at best a massive waste of money - when you make it into the 80s and are still here. While insurance is AOK in your 50s/60s, once you get to 70/75 things change - premiums skyrocket and payouts decline - because you will need more and more medical services. IMO those Expats who have the money to pay for decent health insurance, would be better off if they started in 50s or 60s to put the equivalent of an annual premium in a separate bank account - and let that build up over the years. If you think an insurance company is going to pay out 500K to 1million baht a year in your 80s, you are being delusional.  Health insurance is for when you are under 70/75 and you get a sudden unexpected illness or injury.  Your own savings is what you will need once you get over 70/75. Sure some claim they will continue to cover you, but the exclusions will be much greater and so will the premiums. I knew a bloke that was 80 and his annual premium quote was almost 200K - if he made 90 I reckon it would have been close to 500K. 

[roo860]

44 minutes ago, Surasak said:

Quite agree. but when the one who said yes, OK you can do that, then two years later says. 'I've had people knocking on my door asking where you are'. I knew it was a lie, but as a great distance separated us, what was I to do?

So the DWP have people to go around knocking on doors? It was a local detective in Bulgaria that reported this. DWP hadn't got a clue about it .

https://www.eurojust.europa.eu/news/criminals-behind-multi-million-benefit-fraud-convicted-united-kingdom-eurojust-support

[maddermax]

It's a sadly oft-repeated story. UK nationals paid into their social security religiously over many years with the contributions being index-linked. It is unjust that our pensions are not index linked in Thailand.

Retired UK expats here are being recommended to register for a postal vote for the upcoming general election so that they can vote for the party which supports index linking of pensions.

[Surasak]

3 minutes ago, roo860 said:

So the DWP have people to go around knocking on doors? It was a local detective in Bulgaria that reported this. DWP hadn't got a clue about it .

https://www.eurojust.europa.eu/news/criminals-behind-multi-million-benefit-fraud-convicted-united-kingdom-eurojust-support

I'll stay away from Bulgaria at that rate. No point asking for trouble?

[sambum]

6 hours ago, sandyf said:

Not quite right. It depends on when you tell them and if timed right can be first payment after getting back.

 

Are you saying that you can tell them in advance of your return date to the UK?

 

I would have thought that they would only begin to review your case when you  actually returned to the UK?

 

Otherwise, you would have multitudes of people saying that they are going to return on a certain date, but don't actually do so - for one reason or another!!!  

[freeworld]

13 minutes ago, Surasak said:

I'll stay away from Bulgaria at that rate. No point asking for trouble?

The fact that the govt institution could be fooled out of 50 mil GBP is a huge question how they are running the service.

 

Sentencing also seems quite light for the perpetrators

The perpetrators have been sentenced to over 25 years imprisonment collectively. One perpetrator has been sentenced to eight years imprisonment, others to respectively seven years and three months, four years, three years and two months and three years in prison

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, vukovar77 said:

Problem is that insurrance companies in LOS does not cover many health conditions if you are over 60-65.From my point of view it is the main issue for older expat population live here.

No reason on earth to get insurance from a company in Thailand (and many reasons not to). There are good expatriate policies available from international companies.

 

The real problems are  that:

• by definition, retirees come here in old age and by that time often have pre-existing conditions which make it hard or impossible for them to get insurance
• insurance costs for the elderly are high, and get exponentially more so as one ages; many people  in their financial planning for retirement in Thailand do not take these costs into account (and, if they had, might not have been able to afford to come here)

 

And, lastly, some people simply do not think of it at first, or choose to just assume whatever they need will be cheaply available. By the time they figure out this is not the case, one or more of the above apply.

 

In the case of the woman in the OP, she barely has enough money for food and clothing etc and would never have been able to afford insurance.

[bradiston]

14 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No problems as long as residence in PI can be proven. I believe if they are suspicious of a frozen pensioner conveniently "moving" from a frozen country to a non-frozen one, such as the PI, they'll be looking for passport stamps as evidence. 

Just how they would check passport stamps, even if it proved anything, is a mystery. I believe there are 500,000 UK pensioners living abroad. But where? I guess a percentage have registered overseas, maybe at an embassy, if that means anything, or are otherwise traceable, and a % have registered in reciprocating countries, eg the whole of the EU, US and Canada to name a few. How many does that leave? They would have figures and details on frozen pensions from which they could deduce how many were living abroad outside reciprocating countries. But that's a long list. DWP never asked me for proof of address in Philippines. I'm looking at other reciprocating countries for the future.

 

I was accused of advocating fraud, which is quite frankly libellous. The poster has remained silent on my request for a retraction, and boasts of his 135,000 THB monthly combined pension. My combined one is 36,000 THB pm. I wish him well in hell, which is where he belongs.

[ronster]

1 hour ago, cnx101 said:

Yes I’ve known people with same problem they couldn’t claim anything for two years

Yes I was told needs to be two years total out of a three year spell . So I could have left after first year for a year then returned for another year seemingly.

Opted to just leave after almost first year and not return 😁

[Liverpool Lou]

43 minutes ago, bradiston said:

15 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No problems as long as residence in PI can be proven. I believe if they are suspicious of a frozen pensioner conveniently "moving" from a frozen country to a non-frozen one, such as the PI, they'll be looking for passport stamps as evidence. 

Just how they would check passport stamps, even if it proved anything, is a mystery.

They ask for copies of the relevant passport pages with PI entry and exit stamps, no mystery at all.

[Liverpool Lou]

13 hours ago, bradiston said:

15 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No problems as long as residence in PI can be proven. I believe if they are suspicious of a frozen pensioner conveniently "moving" from a frozen country to a non-frozen one, such as the PI, they'll be looking for passport stamps as evidence. 

I don't think passport stamps are reliable as evidence. Some immigration don't stamp.

There was a YT video made by a Briton, posted on this forum a few weeks ago on this subject in which he categorically stated that in his research discussions with the IPC he had been told that was one of the checks that they do when suspicious about geographic location claims of those trying to unfreeze pensions.

[Liverpool Lou]

8 hours ago, sandyf said:

I am well aware of the history and it is nothing to do with being "fair" and anyone who thinks that way is effectively saying it is acceptable to discriminate.

Well, you're obviously not well aware enough to know that there was a court case suing the government over frozen pensions some years ago that was thrown out with a ruling that the policy was political and not discriminatory.  

[Liverpool Lou]

8 hours ago, sandyf said:

15 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No, no one in their right mind would call it that, either, I'd just call it the rules of the state pension scheme.

You are perfectly free to believe that no government legislation can be unlawful.

Where did I post that that is my belief?

[Liverpool Lou]

6 hours ago, Georgealbert said:

8 hours ago, sandyf said:

I am well aware of the history and it is nothing to do with being "fair" and anyone who thinks that way is effectively saying it is acceptable to discriminate.

Goverment revenue to support the state pension is by default index linked so any entitlement to a pension from "actual" contributions should be index linked otherwise it is legalised fraud. 

Expand  

 

As expected, nothing, and I never ever suggested or said ii was fair. I posted the facts snd history, nothing else, so stop trying to put false words in my mouth, because you can’t support your fake claim that I support discrimination.

I second that.

[Liverpool Lou]

2 hours ago, Thaindrew said:

on the flip side though the UK Government will still want you to pay inheritance tax ... so you cannot have a few hundred quid in pension but please send us 40% of what you have when you die ... at least align all the different benefits / taxed 

You need to do some IHT homework.  IHT obviously is not a liability for everyone, less than 4% of estates as at 2021 pay any tax.

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, bradiston said:

DWP never asked me for proof of address in Philippines. I'm looking at other reciprocating countries for the future.

If you were legitimately living there, I'd guess that they probably were not suspicious about you claim and that only the dubious claims are scrutinised.

[bradiston]

8 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

If you were legitimately living there, I'd guess that they probably were not suspicious about you claim and that only the dubious claims are scrutinised.

Not sure what qualifies as a dubious claim, or how it's flagged, what constitutes legitimacy or how it's established. They only had my word.

 

Also, just how many cases have they pursued in the last 10, 20, 30 years? 0 is my bet. For a few quid claw back, which is all the annual rise amounted to in the past, and legal fees which are unlikely ever to be recovered, plus a fine, from an OAP living abroad with no estate in the UK, what means have they actually got to recover anything? Oh sure, dock his pension. Would a judge award such a punitive sentence if it resulted in extreme hardship? And I'm not sure it's even legal. Update: It's not. State Pension is not sanctionable. See below.

 

But let's see. Maybe there'll be a flood of prosecutions, but I think the DWP has it's hands full with benefit fraud within the UK, mostly via Universal Credit. Last time I checked, it was in the billions.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/fraud-and-error-in-the-benefit-system-financial-year-2021-to-2022-estimates#:~:text=4.0% of total benefit expenditure,or 3.5% of benefit expenditure

 

And who are the real fraudsters?

 

https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/127/public-accounts-committee/news/198838/serious-doubts-raised-over-state-pension-as-pensioners-left-billions-out-of-pocket-by-government/

 

And the State Pension isn't sanctionable. Look under "Sanctionable benefits":

 

https://www.gov.uk/benefit-fraud

 

[Thaindrew]

29 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

You need to do some IHT homework.  IHT obviously is not a liability for everyone, less than 4% of estates as at 2021 pay any tax.

yes its not applicable to everyone, and there are ways to avoid it, but it is an example of the differing implementation of rules to suit the Government only, "you are leaving the UK for Thailand, ok we will fix your pension, oh but we won't fix your asset value, that can continue to grow and potentially be inheritance taxed". To avoid that eventuality, should you have significant assets, you need to be come non-com which isn't that easy to achieve. 

[bradiston]

44 minutes ago, Thaindrew said:

yes its not applicable to everyone, and there are ways to avoid it, but it is an example of the differing implementation of rules to suit the Government only, "you are leaving the UK for Thailand, ok we will fix your pension, oh but we won't fix your asset value, that can continue to grow and potentially be inheritance taxed". To avoid that eventuality, should you have significant assets, you need to be come non-com which isn't that easy to achieve. 

You mean non dom? Non resident maybe. Give it all away, well as much as you're not likely to need, 7 years before you peg out. If you spend 180 days outside the UK per annum I believe you are automatically non resident. Wealthy people I know sell all their assets in the UK and move them all offshore. They pay 0 tax, have fat pensions and use tax avoidance schemes which are all legal. A decent accountant, tax advisor, wealth manager would sort it all out for you.

[Sheryl]

13 hours ago, edwarda909 said:

I would like this to be a site where people can be helpful and use their energy to find s solution. If we frame the problem as a defect in the UK government, then we run into a dead end.  So lets reframe the problem so we can perhaps find a real solution.  I do not know if this will pan out for you or not, but a few minutes on the internet brought up a coupe of links that might be useful.  If not, we can keep looking to find a solution.   https://www.pulse-clinic.com/medical-certificate-fit-to-fly-travel-clearance     https://www.pulse-clinic.com/booking/location  Stay in touch. 

I don't think her problem is not knowing how/where to get a Fit to Fly Certificate.

It is that doctors are unwilling to issue it given her current physical/medical condition.

[vukovar77]

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

No reason on earth to get insurance from a company in Thailand (and many reasons not to). There are good expatriate policies available from international companies.

 

The real problems are  that:

• by definition, retirees come here in old age and by that time often have pre-existing conditions which make it hard or impossible for them to get insurance
• insurance costs for the elderly are high, and get exponentially more so as one ages; many people  in their financial planning for retirement in Thailand do not take these costs into account (and, if they had, might not have been able to afford to come here)

 

And, lastly, some people simply do not think of it at first, or choose to just assume whatever they need will be cheaply available. By the time they figure out this is not the case, one or more of the above apply.

 

In the case of the woman in the OP, she barely has enough money for food and clothing etc and would never have been able to afford insurance.

Well,I agree for Thai com.!Which insurance company-ies  do you concider good for us,expats in LOS?

[bradiston]

2 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

There was a YT video made by a Briton, posted on this forum a few weeks ago on this subject in which he categorically stated that in his research discussions with the IPC he had been told that was one of the checks that they do when suspicious about geographic location claims of those trying to unfreeze pensions.

IPC? Can find multiple uses for this acronym but none that seems relevant. His research discussions? Any links to the video? I must have missed it.

[Sheryl]

17 minutes ago, vukovar77 said:

Well,I agree for Thai com.!Which insurance company-ies  do you concider good for us,expats in LOS?

Best to go through (a Western based) broker as there are many individual variables: age, pre-existing conditions etc.