Thailand to tax residents’ foreign income irrespective of remittance

[CANSIAM]

  On 11/5/2024 at 11:24 AM, oldcpu said:

 

Hopefully a tax clearance certificate will not be required for annual extensions. 

 

I do believe the tax clearance certificate requirement is still on the books (it was once required for exit out of Thailand if one had certain visas), but its enforcement was dropped over a decade ago (maybe dropped much longer ago than that).  so I suppose it could be brought back again if a very strong desire was to do so. 

 

BUT I don't think it is all straight forward ...  If one already has a LOT of savings in Thailand, one could easily go for years and never bring money into the country, and if retired never 'qualify' for a Thai tax ID (an example of this is myself BEFORE when I had a Type-O/OA visa).  Ergo in that case, one who does not have a tax-ID would not nominally qualify for a tax certificate. Or would they?

 

Further, a tax certificate would thou create a bit more work for immigration to have to collect the certificates, and possibly even spend time confirming such certificate is valid via contact with the RD who presumably would issue the certificate.   I suspect immigration (and possibly the RD who have to issue the certificates ??  ) may not want that extra work 

 

...  so lets hope that does not come to pass.

 

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I'm thinkin if necessary,  a non compliance tax clearance certificate bribe is on the horizon - all involved big smiles.... 

[jayboy]

  On 11/5/2024 at 11:24 AM, oldcpu said:

If one already has a LOT of savings in Thailand, one could easily go for years and never bring money into the country

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Yes, but if I understand the position correctly the savings do not necessarily have to be retained in Thailand.Thus if one remits funds that were accumulated before 31.12.2023 (and can prove it) then this is not assessable income and not subject to tax.Isn't that correct?

[chiang mai]

  On 11/6/2024 at 12:52 AM, jayboy said:

 

Yes, but if I understand the position correctly the savings do not necessarily have to be retained in Thailand.Thus if one remits funds that were accumulated before 31.12.2023 (and can prove it) then this is not assessable income and not subject to tax.Isn't that correct?

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That is correct.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

  On 11/5/2024 at 11:24 AM, oldcpu said:

 

Hopefully a tax clearance certificate will not be required for annual extensions. 

 

I do believe the tax clearance certificate requirement is still on the books (it was once required for exit out of Thailand if one had certain visas), but its enforcement was dropped over a decade ago (maybe dropped much longer ago than that).  so I suppose it could be brought back again if a very strong desire was to do so. 

 

BUT I don't think it is all straight forward ...  If one already has a LOT of savings in Thailand, one could easily go for years and never bring money into the country, and if retired never 'qualify' for a Thai tax ID (an example of this is myself BEFORE when I had a Type-O/OA visa).  Ergo in that case, one who does not have a tax-ID would not nominally qualify for a tax certificate. Or would they?

 

Further, a tax certificate would thou create a bit more work for immigration to have to collect the certificates, and possibly even spend time confirming such certificate is valid via contact with the RD who presumably would issue the certificate.   I suspect immigration (and possibly the RD who have to issue the certificates ??  ) may not want that extra work 

 

...  so lets hope that does not come to pass.

 

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I was working here when tax clearance certificates were required for exit. This requirement was dropped roughly thirty years ago. 

 

I recall that there was pushback from the various foreign chambers of commerce against the tax clearance requirement and given the much larger size of the foreign business community, perhaps this would keep it from being re-activated.

 

Now that government databases are linked up to a greater degree than in the past, there may be easier ways for the RD to prevent tax delinquents from leaving the country without making suitable arrangements.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[chiang mai]

  On 11/6/2024 at 1:03 AM, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 

I was working here when tax clearance certificates were required for exit. This requirement was dropped roughly thirty years ago. 

 

I recall that there was pushback from the various foreign chambers of commerce against the tax clearance requirement and given the much larger size of the foreign business community, perhaps this would keep it from being re-activated.

 

Now that government databases are linked up to a greater degree than in the past, there may be easier ways for the RD to prevent tax delinquents from leaving the country without making suitable arrangements.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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That's both reassuring and promising.

[motdaeng]

  On 11/6/2024 at 12:30 AM, CANSIAM said:

... Further, a tax certificate would thou create a bit more work for immigration to have to collect the certificates ...

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i recently completed my 1 year permit (retirement) at immigration. all my papers and documents were complete and in order (they carefully checked everything before i was even given a counter number). but the officer in charge handed me five additional forms to fill out and sign, checked all documents twice for safety, and stamped about 50 times all the document!!! the whole process for my simple 1 year permit (i didn’t have to answer a single question) at the counter took around 20 minutes ... a process that could easily be completed in under 5 minutes!

 

all government offices, banks, immigration, etc., in thailand love to make things as complicated and time-consuming as possible. an extra tax certificate would probably make the immigration officers even happier ... they’d have one more reason to make life difficult for us...

[garygooner]

  On 11/5/2024 at 9:31 AM, chiang mai said:

  On 11/5/2024 at 9:26 AM, jayboy said:

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If you don't have sufficient assessable income during the year, to breach the minimum threshold, no tax return is required.

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What is the absolute minimum threshold for everyone, 60k, 120k or 210k?  

[JimTripper]

  On 11/6/2024 at 1:46 AM, motdaeng said:

 

i recently completed my 1 year permit (retirement) at immigration. all my papers and documents were complete and in order (they carefully checked everything before i was even given a counter number). but the officer in charge handed me five additional forms to fill out and sign, checked all documents twice for safety, and stamped about 50 times all the document!!! the whole process for my simple 1 year permit (i didn’t have to answer a single question) at the counter took around 20 minutes ... a process that could easily be completed in under 5 minutes!

 

all government offices, banks, immigration, etc., in thailand love to make things as complicated and time-consuming as possible. an extra tax certificate would probably make the immigration officers even happier ... they’d have one more reason to make life difficult for us...

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They are intentionally trying to make it complicated.

 

They don't understand things so they need more and more verification to understand what they are given. Even with ample documents most Thai's will require verbal confirmation in order to proceed.

 

It's similar to giving a map to a taxi driver. They can't understand it, but need to talk to a noodle vendor on the way for directions.

[chiang mai]

  On 11/6/2024 at 4:13 AM, garygooner said:

What is the absolute minimum threshold for everyone, 60k, 120k or 210k?  

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All persons earning income are required to file a tax return no later than 31 March of the following year for hardcopy filing and 8 April for online filing, except for individuals whose income from employment is THB 120,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 220,000 or less (for married persons) and in the case of having income from other sources (with or without employment income) of THB 60,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 120,000 or less (for married persons).

 

https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/thailand/individual/tax-administration

[garygooner]

Thanks for that, but I'm not sure it's completely accurate. Isn't the first 150k of income tax free?

However, I'm more interested in people who are retired & not working.  

[chiang mai]

  On 11/6/2024 at 4:36 AM, garygooner said:

Thanks for that, but I'm not sure it's completely accurate. Isn't the first 150k of income tax free?

However, I'm more interested in people who are retired & not working.  

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Trust me it's accurate. The first 150k is the zero rated tax band, it is not a deduction or allowance or have anything to do with tax filing thresholds.

 

The threshold to file a return is shown above but that's not the threshold to pay tax, which varies for most people, once the zero rated tax band and all deductions/allowances are taken into account..

[Presnock]

  On 11/5/2024 at 9:26 AM, jayboy said:

 

I think that sums it up accurately and concisely.

 

My one question would be to ask what is meant by "to potentially file a tax return." Given the criteria you outline surely these foreigners must file a tax return?

 

And just as a comment on the Integrity Legal video, I'm not a great fan of these videos.The American lawyer seems to know his stuff but he is too impetuous for my taste.I like my legal (and tax) advice to be cool, measured and thoughtful.

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chn

 

  On 11/5/2024 at 10:34 PM, chiang mai said:

On the subject of DTAs:

 

We heard months ago that some DTA's were being renegotiated but we haven't heard anything since. Whether that was true or not, I dunno, if it was, it's likely to be a lengthy process. Bottom line is, don't be surprised if you hear that the terms of some DTA's have changed. 

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ChiangMai interesting examiner article last couple of days.

[chiang mai]

  On 11/6/2024 at 6:13 AM, Presnock said:

chn

 

ChiangMai interesting examiner article last couple of days.

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Thanks, but I'm not reading any articles or watching any videos on tax, unless they are from the TRD or Big 4 tax consultants, 

[chiang mai]

What is confusing you Redwood?

[chiang mai]

  On 11/6/2024 at 4:36 AM, garygooner said:

Thanks for that, but I'm not sure it's completely accurate. Isn't the first 150k of income tax free?

However, I'm more interested in people who are retired & not working.  

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Then the following is the part that applies:

 

"in the case of having income from other sources (with or without employment income) of THB 60,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 120,000 or less (for married persons)".

[Presnock]

  On 11/6/2024 at 6:18 AM, chiang mai said:

Thanks, but I'm not reading any articles or watching any videos on tax, unless they are from the TRD or Big 4 tax consultants, 

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is only reactions of expats.

[chiang mai]

  On 11/6/2024 at 7:22 AM, Presnock said:

is only reactions of expats.

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Ah, that's different. I did see some of those comments and I thought the numbers were overstated regarding the number of people leaving etc. But I agree that there is high awareness now, over 92% of expats know about this, thanks in part to threads like these.

[oldcpu]

  On 11/6/2024 at 4:18 AM, chiang mai said:

All persons earning income are required to file a tax return no later than 31 March of the following year for hardcopy filing and 8 April for online filing, except for individuals whose income from employment is THB 120,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 220,000 or less (for married persons) and in the case of having income from other sources (with or without employment income) of THB 60,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 120,000 or less (for married persons).

 

https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/thailand/individual/tax-administration

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With regard to that link, it does not list any exceptions ... and it does not differentiate assessable income from not-assessable income. I assume (incorrectly?  correctly? ) that difference is important.

 

I just watched a relatively recent EXPATTAX youtube video intended for Canadians residing in Thailand.

 

They claimed one whose only income is from a Canadian pension or from a Canadian RRSP (which is sort of like a government registered privately managed pension) would (1) not have to file a Thai tax return, and (2) not pay Thai tax on such income, despite residing in Thailand > 180 days.  One would thou pay Canadian tax on such.

 

They reference the Thai/Canadian DTA as their justification for that.

 

They give a hypothetical case study were a Canadian expat living in Thailand brings in 2-million baht in one calendar/tax year from their RRSP and claim for such a case, if that is the only income, that no Thai tax return is needed.   Again, the DTA is their justification.

 

The point here is that I assume such would be considered not-assessable income, and hence the Thai baht amount I quoted not applicable as even thou the link you posted does not state such, it refers to only assessable income. 

 

But for expats - I do believe it is very important to distinguish and accurately know which of their income sources are assessable and which are not assessable. 

 

I see no mentioning aspects associated with assessable/not-assessable income as a major failing in that link  (assuming of course I am correct that the difference between assessable and 'not assessable' is important).  For an expat who does not know better, they may simply assume all income is assessable, and that may not be the case.

[chiang mai]

  On 11/6/2024 at 7:45 AM, oldcpu said:

 

With regard to that link, it does not list any exceptions ... and it does not differentiate assessable income from not-assessable income. I assume (incorrectly?  correctly? ) that difference is important.

 

I just watched a relatively recent EXPATTAX youtube video intended for Canadians residing in Thailand.

 

They claimed one whose only income is from a Canadian pension or from a Canadian RRSP (which is sort of like a government registered privately managed pension) would (1) not have to file a Thai tax return, and (2) not pay Thai tax on such income, despite residing in Thailand > 180 days.  One would thou pay Canadian tax on such.

 

They reference the Thai/Canadian DTA as their justification for that.

 

They give a hypothetical case study were a Canadian expat living in Thailand brings in 2-million baht in one calendar/tax year from their RRSP and claim for such a case, if that is the only income, that no Thai tax return is needed.   Again, the DTA is their justification.

 

The point here is that I assume such would be considered not-assessable income, and hence the Thai baht amount I quoted not applicable as even thou it does not state such, it refers to only assessable income. 

 

But for expats - I do believe it is very important to distinguish and accurately know which of their income sources are assessable and which are not assessable. 

 

I see no mentioning aspects associated with assessable/not-assessable income as a major failing in that link  (assuming of course I am correct that the difference between assessable and 'not assessable' is important).  For an expat who does not know better, they may simply assume all income is assessable, and that may not be the case.

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It is all assumed to be assessable income, I thought that would have gone without saying. 

[oldcpu]

  On 11/6/2024 at 7:48 AM, chiang mai said:

It is all assumed to be assessable income, I thought that would have gone without saying. 

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Many of the expats I talk to have never heard of the differentiation.

 

With respect, I think your understanding is so advanced here - that things are now 100% clear and correct for you, are not yet for others - and they don't see the difference (yet).

[black tabby12345]

Stupid article again?

6 months on after his personal speech, no solid information is released from any sources.

 

Useless scare tactics with the greedy tax firm behind.

 

Don't make any appointment with those Tax Consultants  who charge you hefty fee

for their  meaningless pointless 'Expert Advice' for the topic they are not sure about either.

 

 

[Eudaimonia]

PwC has published an updated Thai Tax 2024/25 Booklet. A valuable free resource.

 

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/thai-tax-booklet-2024.html

[norbra]

  On 11/6/2024 at 7:55 AM, Eudaimonia said:

PwC has published an updated Thai Tax 2024/25 Booklet. A valuable free resource.

 

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/thai-tax-booklet-2024.html

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Lovely booklet with no information about  qualifications in regard to applying for a TIN.

[chiang mai]

  On 11/6/2024 at 7:50 AM, oldcpu said:

 

Many of the expats I talk to have never heard of the differentiation.

 

With respect, I think your understanding is so advanced here - that things are now 100% clear and correct for you, are not yet for others - and they don't see the difference (yet).

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Remitted funds can be assessable to Thai tax or they can be exempt or excluded funds. There is no point in setting a threshold limit for excluded or exempt remitted funds because there is no requirement to file a tax return, no matter how much is remitted.

 

Assessable, in the context of tax, means that the funds must be assessed or considered for tax. Exempt and excluded funds are not considered for tax hence they are not assessable. Remitted merely means to send, transmit or remit funds from one place to another.

[chiang mai]

  On 11/6/2024 at 8:07 AM, norbra said:

Lovely booklet with no information about  qualifications in regard to applying for a TIN.

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The TRD requirement is that a tax payer must apply for a TIN, within 60 days of having a minimum of 60,000 baht in assessable income.

[Enzian]

What about a plan to remit a small amount of assessable income (be it 60K THB, or 150K, or 210K, or whatever) here at the end of the year (below some threshold of filing or reporting, and please advise), after all year only remitting provable US SS monies from a dedicated account? Reason being to let the pot/account of SS sitting in the US continue to accumulate into next year when there may be a greater chance of some tax thing actually being put into effect? Or am I confounding the remittance scheme and the possible WW PIT scheme? (And you may say that such confounding is what the TRD is already doing.) Thanks.

[chiang mai]

  On 11/6/2024 at 9:58 AM, Enzian said:

What about a plan to remit a small amount of assessable income (be it 60K THB, or 150K, or 210K, or whatever) here at the end of the year (below some threshold of filing or reporting, and please advise), after all year only remitting provable US SS monies from a dedicated account? Reason being to let the pot/account of SS sitting in the US continue to accumulate into next year when there may be a greater chance of some tax thing actually being put into effect? Or am I confounding the remittance scheme and the possible WW PIT scheme? (And you may say that such confounding is what the TRD is already doing.) Thanks.

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Your questions aren't entirely clear to me.

 

The filing threshold for assessable income, derived from anything other than employment, is 60k baht

 

US SSc is DTA exempt income if remitted to Thailand.

 

I can see no advantage to accumulating US SSc in the US since it is exempt income in Thailand.

 

If/when WW taxation is implemented, that will not change the exemption on your US SSc.

 

 

[JimGant]

  On 11/6/2024 at 7:45 AM, oldcpu said:

But for expats - I do believe it is very important to distinguish and accurately know which of their income sources are assessable and which are not assessable. 

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Indeed. And for Canadians, per DTA, govt AND private pensions are both non assessable income for Thai tax purposes. So, remittances of such are just invisible for Thai tax filing requirement purposes -- and more importantly, for Thai tax payment obligation.

[Enzian]

  On 11/6/2024 at 10:11 AM, chiang mai said:

Your questions aren't entirely clear to me.

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I think where I wasn't clear is that my US SS is not enough alone for my annual cash needs here, so I need to fudge somewhere in order to bring in enough to cover my total spending here. If a certain amount of otherwise assessable money flies below some exemption threshold(s), then that's a place to start. I also question if anything at all will be enforced this year, which is a reason to leave as much SS money as possible for next year in the event that the odds of enforcement increase. I hope that makes sense. Thanks.

[lordgrinz]

I see a new article on PattayaMail's home page talking about the need to get a TIN during the calendar year 2024, even if you owe nothing.

 

https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/news/all-thailands-expatriates-should-register-with-trd-says-tax-expert-478899