Is Thailand's subtle bias to Russia (vs. the collective west) risking secondary sanctions?

[LALes]

4 hours ago, Lacessit said:

The Ukrainian language and alphabet differ from Russian. Under the USSR, the Russian language was compulsory in schools, to assist the process of Russification.

Russian speakers in Ukraine are only there because they were transplanted from Russia in the  1930's. After the Holodomor, in which Stalin killed an estimated 6 million Ukrainians by mass starvation.

Portraying Ukrainians as Nazis is a lie promoted by Putin. True, the Ukrainians welcomed the Germans as liberators during WWII. They quickly learned there was no difference between a Nazi or a Communist jackboot.

Putin signed the Budapest Memorandum in 1994, which guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty and security in return for Ukraine surrendering its nuclear arsenal. Yeah right.

I don't know what is more disturbing about your post, its abject ignorance of Ukrainian history, or the parroting of Kremlin propaganda.

The problem with your history is that it leaves off in 1994 and doesn't mention NATO's eastern expansion of the last 20 years that is the real cause of this Ukraine war.  NATO was never supposed to be brought up to the borders with Russia.  I don't blame Putin one bit for getting agitated and finally taking military action.  Imagine if the Chinese moved into Mexico and set up shop.  Do you think the US would stand by and do nothing.  Their hair would be on fire and they would bring their full might into the situation.  Putin started the Ukraine offensive with one hand tied behind his back because he wanted to go easy on his fellow Slavs.  Its too bad the US had other ideas and pushed him to escalate.  Make no mistake.  The US is the real cause of this war.  We use NATO as our battering ram.  The objective is the complete destruction of Russia and anything that gets in our way is collateral damage.  Its no wonder the rest of the world is running to BRICS to get away from this crazed, militant juggernaut.

[claffey]

On 6/18/2024 at 2:08 PM, Jingthing said:

Look, I did start this topic, but I see it's attracting a lot of hostility, and a lot of moronic anti western, anti democracy rhetoric. I'm not interested in wasting my time with that. 

I started this to bring up a concern that I haven't heard before -- the risk that Thailand might eventually be hit with secondary sanctions because of their obvious strong economic ties with fascist dictator Putin's Russia and that IF it does that will mean Thai banks, and expats depend on Thai banks. That's all. No predictions that will ever happen, but it might.

So you started a debate but are not interested about even considering other perspectives if people don't agree with you? How democratic of you. This is an example of Western hypocrisy. Why should Thailand declare for any side in a war on the other side of the world? 

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, LALes said:

The problem with your history is that it leaves off in 1994 and doesn't mention NATO's eastern expansion of the last 20 years that is the real cause of this Ukraine war.  NATO was never supposed to be brought up to the borders with Russia.  I don't blame Putin one bit for getting agitated and finally taking military action.  Imagine if the Chinese moved into Mexico and set up shop.  Do you think the US would stand by and do nothing.  Their hair would be on fire and they would bring their full might into the situation.  Putin started the Ukraine offensive with one hand tied behind his back because he wanted to go easy on his fellow Slavs.  Its too bad the US had other ideas and pushed him to escalate.  Make no mistake.  The US is the real cause of this war.  We use NATO as our battering ram.  The objective is the complete destruction of Russia and anything that gets in our way is collateral damage.  Its no wonder the rest of the world is running to BRICS to get away from this crazed, militant juggernaut.

How is Russia fighting this war? By targeting the electricity grid and agriculture in Ukraine. Freezing or starving Ukrainians is trying to finish the job Stalin started. Go easy on his fellow Slavs my aching butt.

 

Wars are theft writ large. Putin has all the traits of a kleptomaniac, ask any of his oligarchs who are still alive. Portraying him as a victim is ridiculous.

 

NATO is a defensive treaty. There is nothing in its charter to say it will attack anybody without first being attacked itself. Every nation in Europe wanted to join it because Putin has repeatedly said he wants to restore the USSR to its former glory. There's not a nation in Europe who wants to be under the Soviet yoke again.

 

IMO Putin would have done much better to shore up defenses in eastern Siberia, which is rich in resources the Chinese have coveted for decades. He was making billions selling oil and gas to Europe.

 

Please name the nations who are running to BRICS, AFAIK the American dollar is still the world reserve currency, and who wants rubles, yuan, and rupees?

 

On topic, Thais have repeatedly proven themselves as world-class fence sitters.

[Jingthing]

Yes I'm not predicting anything will be done by the west towards Thailand but I am suggesting it's possible.

One example, let's say genocidal fascist dictator Putin using a tactical nuke in Ukraine.

Not likely? Hopefully not! But he threatens to do stuff like that very often. 

So how does the west respond? 

An escalation leading to global nuclear winter or something less?

Something less could include going after any entity that is helping Putin's war efforts anywhere in the world.

That could include some entities in Thailand.

 

My POV may be different than some.

I see the world as already positioned for World War 3 whether it literally comes to be more real or not, hopefully not.

It's already plenty real in Ukrains and if the west caves it will soon become plenty real in Taiwan, Africa, and South America.

That means the sides taking form.

We've got the west, the dictatorships axis (Russia, China. Iran. NK, Nicaragua, Venezuela, etc.), the truly neutral, and the fake neutrals. It's my opinion Thailand is a fake neutral not that they super support Putin but that they support making money out of Russia and thus are helping the Russian war effort. Similar position to Brazil, South Africa, India, and UAE.

Edited June 19 by Jingthing

[Hummin]

8 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

.

 

NATO is a defensive treaty. There is nothing in its charter to say it will attack anybody without first being attacked itself. Every nation in Europe wanted to join it because .

You forget there is three wars being fought, one with weapons, one with economic collaboration and control of resources.

 

 

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, Hummin said:

You forget there is three wars being fought, one with weapons, one with economic collaboration and control of resources.

 

 

AFAIK there were no sanctions on Russia prior to the illegal annexation of Crimea, and even then what sanctions came into play were like being flogged with a wet lettuce leaf.

 

Putin totally miscalculated the opposition he would get invading Ukraine. That mistake means he is presiding over the disintegration of the Russian Federation, and even Russia itself.

 

Fact 1: Russia is a declining demographic. Losing half a million soldiers in Ukraine, plus another million young people who left Russia, is not helping.

 

Fact 2: Russia is a big country. Boeings and Airbuses make up 70% of its fleet, and they are having to cannibalize those aircraft to keep the fleet in the air.

 

Fact 3: Russia has a vanishing technological cadre. Because the Soviet education system collapsed in 1987, most engineers and scientists of competence are in their sixties.

 

Fact 4: Russia does not have a broad-based economy. As John McCain once remarked, it's a gas station pretending to be a country. It will never catch up to Western economies now.

 

The real tragedy of Russia is how badly it has been mismanaged, when it should be one of the world's most prosperous countries.

[Fortean1]

I somewhat agree that NATO/OTAN expanded too quickly whereby former Warsaw Pact countries (esp. Poland) became members.  I served in a NATO/OTAN communications center in Naples, Italy from 1977 to 1980.  Every November we war gamed a Soviet invasion through the Ruhr river valley into Germany and the Po river valley in northern Italy.  The command was Allied Forces South.  There was a war headquarters northeast of Naples at PROTO.  It was inside a mountain, a poor man's version of Cheyenne Mountain in the U.S.  Few troops, planes, and ships moved throughout Europe and the Mediterranean.  Almost two weeks of clattering Olivetti teletypes and then a stillness.  Those tank armies could not be stopped by conventional means, therefore, the U.S. and designated Allies began using tactical nuclear weapons.  The Soviets and the reluctant Warsaw Pact countries went home without using tactical nuclear weapons.  That is hardly likely.  I'm pretty sure that Putin is aware of this war gaming scenario.  He threatens use, and hopefully, the world will not see this.  I want to add that the French military did participate.  I recall sending and receiving teletypes from FS Foch, an aircraft carrier.  One customer in our communications center was the French Military Mission.  The messages were often in both English and French.  At the beginning of text there were passing instructions in specific messages that said, NOT RELEASABLE TO THE FRENCH MILITARY MISSION.

Edited June 19 by Fortean1

[TedG]

On 6/18/2024 at 1:36 AM, Hummin said:

 

 

The question is, do Asian believe in democrazy and the West as an future alliance? 

 

Democracy is declining in SE Asia. 

Quote

 

South-East Asian democracy is declining

Recent events in Cambodia, Indonesia and Thailand help explain why

 

In Thailand the setback is more visible. In May a general election produced an emphatic winner, Move Forward, a party that championed breaking the grip of Thailand’s monarcho-military elite after nine years of army-backed rule. But the elite moved to deny it power, sharing it instead with Thaksin Shinawatra, a former prime minister who promptly returned after years in exile. Mr Thaksin was once considered the champion of ordinary Thais. The army twice launched coups against him and parties controlled by him. Now he is in bed with it.

 

Quote

 

 

https://www.economist.com/asia/2023/08/31/south-east-asian-democracy-is-declining

Edited June 19 by TedG

[GammaGlobulin]

You are never subtle, Sir.

 

I am amazed that this word, subtle, is even part of your lexicon.

 

Wonders never cease, obviously.....

[kevozman1]

On 6/18/2024 at 10:42 AM, connda said:

I'm thinking the Winds of Winter are coming for the West (wow that rhymes; I'm a poet and don't know it) <laughs>
The Song of Spring is coming for the BRICS+.

One's dying the death of empires; the other is blossoming to life.

 

I am currently soured on the West due to the clown fiesta that is Modern Liberalism. HOWEVER. People taking about BRICKS.. Not countries I or many people I know would want to live in. If you think the West is bad, then take a look at the countries that make up that acronym. It's not far off picking a bunch of countries that are a living nightmare for different reasons. 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/18/2024 at 6:07 PM, kimamey said:

I can see your point, but the one thing you haven't mentioned is Ukraine which is the country that is suffering. From what I've seen many Thais aren't very good at looking beyond their own immediate needs and wants and taking responsibility. They will have looked at their situation rather than the death and destruction in Ukraine and base their decisions on that rather than taking a more difficult and responsible stance which might cost them.

I don't know what you mean by that. Seems you want Thailand to take a side, or do you want Thailand to join the war? Short of that, what could Thailand do anyway? Do you want them to ban lucrative Russian tourists, and why would they be foolish enough to do that?

Ukraine is nothing to do with Thailand- it's a European conflict. Thailand has a more pressing conflict going on next door to worry about than some Euro squabble so far away.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, Lacessit said:

On topic, Thais have repeatedly proven themselves as world-class fence sitters.

and shown themselves to be wise to do so. You are talking about a country that was threatened with colonisation by either the French or the English and managed to avoid that fate.

IMO only foolish leaders have allowed themselves to be sucked into the conflict by the USA, to the detriment of their own citizens, as the money that should have been spent at home gets wasted on bullets and missiles.

 

IMO there is zero upside to being in this conflict, for citizens of Euro countries, and their economies will suffer for it. Have any Euro governments allowed a referendum on the subject?

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

and shown themselves to be wise to do so. You are talking about a country that was threatened with colonisation by either the French or the English and managed to avoid that fate.

IMO only foolish leaders have allowed themselves to be sucked into the conflict by the USA, to the detriment of their own citizens, as the money that should have been spent at home gets wasted on bullets and missiles.

 

IMO there is zero upside to being in this conflict, for citizens of Euro countries, and their economies will suffer for it. Have any Euro governments allowed a referendum on the subject?

My post was not meant in a critical way, in point of fact one has to admire the adroitness of the Thais in repeatedly maintaining a neutral stance. Even when Japan was sweeping all before it.

 

IMO the European countries who were under Soviet domination during the Cold War have everything to gain by stalling Putin in Ukraine. He would not stop there if he won.

[kimamey]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I don't know what you mean by that. Seems you want Thailand to take a side, or do you want Thailand to join the war? Short of that, what could Thailand do anyway? Do you want them to ban lucrative Russian tourists, and why would they be foolish enough to do that?

Ukraine is nothing to do with Thailand- it's a European conflict. Thailand has a more pressing conflict going on next door to worry about than some Euro squabble so far away.

I think the invasion and death and destruction in Ukraine is a bit more than a squabble, plus it involves China to some extent.

As you say Thailand has a conflict next door and they don't seem to be coming out too strongly against that either. Min Aung Hlaing's children are apparently moving money to Thailand and buying assets here. I don't know if that's been investigated yet or not. A lot of the Russians who come here are probably the ones who don't support the war, or at least not so much they want to take part.

 

Not directly connected but I was reading that supporters of monks in Myanmar have been boasting that their monks and abbots have bigger, more expensive cars than the Thai ones. Surpassing the corruption in Thailand that's been in the news here recently. Of course it's only those monks and abbots in Myanmar that support the military killing that are benefitting. 

 

Ukraine or Myanmar, it's all down to what it will cost Thailand rather than the sort of empathy I would have expected from a largely Buddhist nation. Until I got here and witnessed it in action of course.

 

What could Thailand do? Say it's wrong to invade another country and steal their children, maybe.

[Hummin]

On 6/19/2024 at 3:35 PM, Lacessit said:

AFAIK there were no sanctions on Russia prior to the illegal annexation of Crimea, and even then what sanctions came into play were like being flogged with a wet lettuce leaf.

 

Putin totally miscalculated the opposition he would get invading Ukraine. That mistake means he is presiding over the disintegration of the Russian Federation, and even Russia itself.

 

Fact 1: Russia is a declining demographic. Losing half a million soldiers in Ukraine, plus another million young people who left Russia, is not helping.

 

Fact 2: Russia is a big country. Boeings and Airbuses make up 70% of its fleet, and they are having to cannibalize those aircraft to keep the fleet in the air.

 

Fact 3: Russia has a vanishing technological cadre. Because the Soviet education system collapsed in 1987, most engineers and scientists of competence are in their sixties.

 

Fact 4: Russia does not have a broad-based economy. As John McCain once remarked, it's a gas station pretending to be a country. It will never catch up to Western economies now.

 

The real tragedy of Russia is how badly it has been mismanaged, when it should be one of the world's most prosperous countries.

My answer was more about what Nato represent as a treaty, where you have obligations economically when it comes to technology, weapons, effects, and who and where you get your energy as well raw material. Now Eu will ban Chinese Electric cars among their members.

 

We know US for years warned Germany about their collaboration with Russia and Iran. 

 

Nato is so much more than an defensive treaty, and it is just common sense if we want to preserve our economic control. Still it causes growt problems when they start pushing to hard and directly start playing in Putins back yard. 

 

Ukraine have something EU, Nato members and also Russia wants. 

[Lacessit]

6 hours ago, Hummin said:

 

Ukraine have something EU, Nato members and also Russia wants. 

True. Ukraine has a large area of chernozem, the black soil ideal for cereal agriculture.

AFAIK NATO is not trying to steal it. Putin is.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/20/2024 at 7:33 PM, Lacessit said:

IMO the European countries who were under Soviet domination during the Cold War have everything to gain by stalling Putin in Ukraine.

I do not disagree with that, so let them do so without involving countries not under any threat by Russia.

 

If western countries are going to start getting involved in wars on behalf of countries that have no treaty obligations with western countries perhaps they could lend a hand to get rid of the murderous military in Burma. There is an enemy that is acknowledged to be evil by most. Tibet could do with an assist to rid itself of Chinese occupation as well.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/20/2024 at 12:07 AM, claffey said:

So you started a debate but are not interested about even considering other perspectives if people don't agree with you? How democratic of you. This is an example of Western hypocrisy. Why should Thailand declare for any side in a war on the other side of the world? 

Thailand is being entirely sensible. Ukraine is nothing to do with Thailand, other than as a tourist destination.

[jas007]

Secondary sanctions?  I doubt it.  I can understand how such a situation might come to pass, but in reality I can’t imagine it.  If anything, the U.S. would like a stronger foothold in Asia, and that doesn’t happen when you’re trying to punish much of Asia. To the extent that China is considered a threat, the last thing the U.S. would do would be to impose sanctions on an Asian country simply for expressing an interest in BRICS.  If they sanctioned every country that did that, they’d only be hurting the U.S..  They can’t sanction most of the world. I think they’re beginning to realize that.  Then again, maybe not. The stupidity of the people seemingly calling the shots is incredible. They seem to think that any problem can be solved through the use of sanctions. 

[CharlieKo]

On 6/18/2024 at 12:26 PM, Jingthing said:

Thailand plays neutral on Russia's genocidal war of choice against Ukraine, but it's not hard to see a pro Russian bias in reality.

It's about Thailand's national interest, economic interest, not about morality. 

 

You might be at war with Russia, but Thailand isn't. This just shows your American entitlement that thinks you can dictate to other countries  what they can and can't do. You are the problem not the Russians.

 

You talk about morality. America doesn't have any morality. You guy's know how to start wars but you never finish them, you always cut and run. Just like in Afghanistan! 

Edited June 26 by CharlieKo

[Jingthing]

Just in today.

 

Bank of China cut ties with sanctioned Russian companies and individuals to avoid secondary sanctions 

 

Does anyone know if any Thai banks are trading with any such sanctioned Russian entities?

[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, CharlieKo said:

 

You might be at war with Russia, but Thailand isn't. This just shows your American entitlement that thinks you can dictate to other countries  what they can and can't do. You are the problem not the Russians.

 

You talk about morality. America doesn't have any morality. You guy's know how to start wars but you never finish them, you always cut and run. Just like in Afghanistan! 

Ad hominem garbage.

[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, jas007 said:

Secondary sanctions?  I doubt it.  I can understand how such a situation might come to pass, but in reality I can’t imagine it.  If anything, the U.S. would like a stronger foothold in Asia, and that doesn’t happen when you’re trying to punish much of Asia. To the extent that China is considered a threat, the last thing the U.S. would do would be to impose sanctions on an Asian country simply for expressing an interest in BRICS.  If they sanctioned every country that did that, they’d only be hurting the U.S..  They can’t sanction most of the world. I think they’re beginning to realize that.  Then again, maybe not. The stupidity of the people seemingly calling the shots is incredible. They seem to think that any problem can be solved through the use of sanctions. 

You lack imagination.

[CharlieKo]

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Ad hominem garbage.

The only one talking garbage is you. 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, CharlieKo said:

The only one talking garbage is you. 

Blah blah blah

[CharlieKo]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Blah blah blah

Childish.

[jas007]

17 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You lack imagination.

 And what, exactly, should I be imagining? Yes, I can imagine secondary sanctions.  I just don’t see it happening.  The U.S. has nothing to gain at this point, other than to further piss off the parts of the world that aren’t already sanctioned for one reason or another.  

[Jingthing]

29 minutes ago, jas007 said:

 And what, exactly, should I be imagining? Yes, I can imagine secondary sanctions.  I just don’t see it happening.  The U.S. has nothing to gain at this point, other than to further piss off the parts of the world that aren’t already sanctioned for one reason or another.  

It's real.

Bank of China gets it.

You're failing to get that Putin is the Hitler of our era.

[jas007]

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

It's real.

Bank of China gets it.

You're failing to get that Putin is the Hitler of our era.

And that’s your problem in a nutshell. “The Hitler of our era.”  You really believe that, I think. That’s exactly what they want you to believe.  It’s not your fault.  Lots of people fall for the propaganda.  

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, jas007 said:

And that’s your problem in a nutshell. “The Hitler of our era.”  You really believe that, I think. That’s exactly what they want you to believe.  It’s not your fault.  Lots of people fall for the propaganda.  

They?

Conspiracy theory garbage.