Is NATO Ready for War? An In-Depth Assessment of Defense and Deterrence

[CharlieKo]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

In that case you're talking nuclear winter.

Realistically it is going to take a few years before Nato countries would be in a position to fight a conventional war. Long before that, Ukraine would have been overrun by Russian forces. The Neocons are stupid enough to think they can beat Russia. They will do something stupid and boom because of their miscalculations Nukes will fly. 

 

Sorry but the day's of America dictating to countries what they can or can't do are coming to an end. They cannot accept a multi Polar world where they are not in control.  

Edited June 21 by CharlieKo

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, CharlieKo said:

Realistically it is going to take a few years before Nato countries would be in a position to fight a conventional war. Long before that, Ukraine would have been overrun by Russian forces. The Neocons are stupid enough to think they can beat Russia. They will do something stupid and boom because of their miscalculations Nukes will fly.   

That's what Putin wants people to think. Whether you are or not, your rhetoric us Magadonian.

[CharlieKo]

Just now, Jingthing said:

That's what Putin wants people to think. Whether you are or not, your rhetoric us Magadonian.

That's right, blame it all on Trump. You really have swallowed the Dem talking points hook line and sinker. I feel sorry for you that you have been blinded by the madness that is US politics. I just hope I am wrong and that the world can live in PEACE. What is it with the USA if they can't stay in control they will screw the world? While blaming Putin for what they the US are doing.  

[stoner]

3 hours ago, tandor said:

..but aren't the 'ancients' going to intervene and put out the lit fuses!

 

the ancients can't get the gate on destiny working yet. 

[stoner]

13 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

It would be nice to stick to the topic at hand instead of your usual laundry list of talking points, dont you think? 

Trump called out NATO and made them a bit nervous. Good. They needed a wake up call. Hopefully it will be permanent. IF, as you say, Trump was a Putin puppet, he would never have done so. He would have let NATO quietly continue to starve their military forces of funds and materiel. Your accusation has no basis in fact. Trump also never would have warned Germany about the dangers of relying on Russia as their primary source for energy, IF he were a Russian stooge. So your crackpot theory has no basis in reality.

 

As for destroying Russia's supplies, NATO doesn't have the long range strike capability to do that. The majority of their aircraft are strictly 'over the field of battle' types. 

 

a thread is not a thread without the first comment being a tug talking points rant. i expect it to be the first on anything don.

[stoner]

11 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

That's what Putin wants people to think. Whether you are or not, your rhetoric us Magadonian.

 

anything that doesn't fit your worldview and narrative is automatically trump. its that precise attitude and way of thinking that will more than likely see him elected again. yes we know he is a convicted felon before you parrot it out.

Edited June 21 by stoner

[Denim]

7 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

You can take the numbers in this article with a very LARGE grain of salt. Germany, for example, actually has only about 100 battle ready tanks (Leopards). France, perhaps 200. Italy, as few as 50 that are operational.  Their air forces are in similar states. They have very little in the way of lift capability or force projection.

 

NATO members have been starving their militaries for decades. And it is now showing.  They have been relying on Uncle Sugar for too long.

 

You might do well to add Poland to your in depth study.

 

They have been expanding their military considerably  recently in preparation for any Russian aggression. Last I read they have over 600 tanks plus additional armored vehicles. 

 

Secondly , let us look at moral. We can see how enthusiastic the average Russian male is about an expansion of the war by the numbers of them that have fled the country rather than fight. If Russia attacks Nato their troops will not be as motivated as the defenders.

 

Therefore a dangerous situation will quickly arise whereby Putin will have to go nuclear as a last resort to save his sorry ass . Not a good outcome for the planet. It all depends on whether there is anyone in Russia capable of removing Putin before he cuts of everyone's nose to spite his face.

[Jingthing]

20 minutes ago, stoner said:

 

anything that doesn't fit your worldview and narrative is automatically trump. its that precise attitude and way of thinking that will more than likely see him elected again. yes we know he is a convicted felon before you parrot it out.

Bull crap.

People that call pro Ukraine rhetoric neocon are usually maga.

Nothing to do with neocon.

[Jingthing]

30 minutes ago, CharlieKo said:

That's right, blame it all on Trump. You really have swallowed the Dem talking points hook line and sinker. I feel sorry for you that you have been blinded by the madness that is US politics. I just hope I am wrong and that the world can live in PEACE. What is it with the USA if they can't stay in control they will screw the world? While blaming Putin for what they the US are doing.  

Note the lack of blame where it belongs. Putin  Clearly I nailed the maga label.

[stoner]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Bull crap.

People that call pro Ukraine rhetoric neocon are usually maga.

Nothing to do with neocon.

 

bullcrap. that is your opinion based on your own worldview. 

 

 

[Hanaguma]

40 minutes ago, Denim said:

 

You might do well to add Poland to your in depth study.

 

They have been expanding their military considerably  recently in preparation for any Russian aggression. Last I read they have over 600 tanks plus additional armored vehicles. 

 

Secondly , let us look at moral. We can see how enthusiastic the average Russian male is about an expansion of the war by the numbers of them that have fled the country rather than fight. If Russia attacks Nato their troops will not be as motivated as the defenders.

 

Therefore a dangerous situation will quickly arise whereby Putin will have to go nuclear as a last resort to save his sorry ass . Not a good outcome for the planet. It all depends on whether there is anyone in Russia capable of removing Putin before he cuts of everyone's nose to spite his face.

...or Russia will hunker down, go on the defensive, and keep hold of the territory they have already taken. One thing that is historically true about the Russian army is that they are a/ stubborn on defense and b/ very good engineers at creating defense in depth. The Ukranians found out last summer sadly during their failed offensive. 

 

So... best course of action? Cut a deal and call it a day IMHO. Enough death.  Plus I am not sure how much blood NATO is willing to shed over trying to return Ukraine to status quo ante.

[Ben Zioner]

8 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

You can take the numbers in this article with a very LARGE grain of salt. Germany, for example, actually has only about 100 battle ready tanks (Leopards). France, perhaps 200. Italy, as few as 50 that are operational.  Their air forces are in similar states. They have very little in the way of lift capability or force projection.

 

NATO members have been starving their militaries for decades. And it is now showing.  They have been relying on Uncle Sugar for too long.

This is why European Nato countries should have increased VAT by 3% at least to Finance the war effort. And this as soon as Russia crossed the Ukrainian border. 

[Denim]

22 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

...or Russia will hunker down, go on the defensive, and keep hold of the territory they have already taken. One thing that is historically true about the Russian army is that they are a/ stubborn on defense and b/ very good engineers at creating defense in depth. The Ukranians found out last summer sadly during their failed offensive. 

 

So... best course of action? Cut a deal and call it a day IMHO. Enough death.  Plus I am not sure how much blood NATO is willing to shed over trying to return Ukraine to status quo ante.

 

Unfortunately,  in this case , cutting a deal means unconditional surrender to all Putins demands. He has recently said this much himself.

 

The war of attrition will continue. But Russia has a lot more cannon fodder which is hard for Ukraine to deal with.

 

IMO Ukraines strategy and tactics should be aimed at destroying Russias ability to wage war rather than worrying about retaking lost territory.  If they retake a town or village it is useless since it cannot immediately return to its peacetime productivity.

 

 

 

[Tug]

2 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

It would be nice to stick to the topic at hand instead of your usual laundry list of talking points, dont you think? 

Trump called out NATO and made them a bit nervous. Good. They needed a wake up call. Hopefully it will be permanent. IF, as you say, Trump was a Putin puppet, he would never have done so. He would have let NATO quietly continue to starve their military forces of funds and materiel. Your accusation has no basis in fact. Trump also never would have warned Germany about the dangers of relying on Russia as their primary source for energy, IF he were a Russian stooge. So your crackpot theory has no basis in reality.

 

As for destroying Russia's supplies, NATO doesn't have the long range strike capability to do that. The majority of their aircraft are strictly 'over the field of battle' types. 

The felons behavior and statements towards nato and his being an asset to the Russian federation is entirely relevant to the thread just what the dude says is enough evidence for any rational person who cherishes democracy and freedom he needs to be called out.furthermore to even suggest that NATO and her ALLIES don’t have the long range capability is laughable.it’s easy to deduce were your sympathy's lie…..

[nauseus]

7 hours ago, Woof999 said:

 

Quit with this "no wars under Trump" bullcrap.

 

1.) He buddy's up to Putin. Do you think that Putin in any way, shape or form either admires or fears Trump? He WANTS Trump in office.

 

2.) He has already told Putin to "do whatever the hell he likes" with any country he feels are "delinquent" on their defence spending. Is that what a peace lover does?

 

3.) No new wars may have started on foreign soil during his presidency (do you honestly think that was because of any proactive work done by Trump?), but he riles up his fellow nationals domestically. Such as "stand by" for the Proud Boys, and numerous others and stood by doing nothing while his followers marched on the Capitol, being fed a whole heap of lies about a "stolen election".

 

Bless you anyway.

 

Oh No  another W with trailing digits.

[nauseus]

Woof

Edited June 21 by nauseus
Woof

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, stoner said:

 

a thread is not a thread without the first comment being a tug talking points rant. i expect it to be the first on anything don.

 

I think he has an in.

[Hanaguma]

27 minutes ago, Tug said:

The felons behavior and statements towards nato and his being an asset to the Russian federation is entirely relevant to the thread just what the dude says is enough evidence for any rational person who cherishes democracy and freedom he needs to be called out.furthermore to even suggest that NATO and her ALLIES don’t have the long range capability is laughable.it’s easy to deduce were your sympathy's lie…..

A lovely sentiment. Except the small detail that Ukraine really isn't the poster child for "democracy and freedom" now, is it? Never has been, even before the Russian invasion. At best, ranked as "partly free" by Freedom House.

 

Any long range capability that NATO has relies almost exclusively on the USAF. 

 

It isn't a question of sympathy, that is just an easy dodge to avoid reality. Much like the good old shibboleth of "you must be a Putin puppet" if a person is not 100% on board with starting a global war to eject Russia from Ukraine. 

[Chelseafan]

10 hours ago, johng said:

Do not underestimate Russia  they have the nukes too !

 

Yeah but will they work ? Come to think of it, will ours work ? 🤔

 

[TedG]

6 hours ago, CharlieKo said:

Realistically it is going to take a few years before Nato countries would be in a position to fight a conventional war. Long before that, Ukraine would have been overrun by Russian forces. The Neocons are stupid enough to think they can beat Russia. They will do something stupid and boom because of their miscalculations Nukes will fly. 

 

Sorry but the day's of America dictating to countries what they can or can't do are coming to an end. They cannot accept a multi Polar world where they are not in control.  

The West can beat Russia. Russian can't even handle Ukraine. 

[Jingthing]

15 minutes ago, TedG said:

The West can beat Russia. Russian can't even handle Ukraine. 

That's true.

But the west isn't helping Ukraine enough to actually win.

It still isn't.

Just enough to not lose and the eight month delay from the Putin adjacent U.S. maga fascists saw Ukraine on a losing slide.

So to me it's not about capability (yes the west has it) but political will and patience. Russia historically is into very long wars. The west particularly Americans have five minute attention spans.

[jts-khorat]

15 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

The Donald told them to get their <deleted> together years ago, and they laughed. Well, who's laughing now? Germany spending 1.4% of GDP on defence is a sad joke, the rest of NATO not much better. They are reaping what they have sown. You think Putin would have invaded in 2022 if NATO had provided any kind of credible military response capability? Doubt it.

 

One would really think the world really does not need a Germany that takes re-arming itself serious.

 

Germans are goal-oriented. If there is an armed military, sooner or later the populace will ask why that much money was spent if it is then not "used". Already there is a serious problem with right-leaning rhetoric, but few tools to act on it on a world stage.

 

I wish that Germany stays as it is: it pays for everybodies armaments, but keeps out of the business of having them itself.

 

And I say that, being German.

Edited June 21 by jts-khorat

[Tug]

5 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

A lovely sentiment. Except the small detail that Ukraine really isn't the poster child for "democracy and freedom" now, is it? Never has been, even before the Russian invasion. At best, ranked as "partly free" by Freedom House.

 

Any long range capability that NATO has relies almost exclusively on the USAF. 

 

It isn't a question of sympathy, that is just an easy dodge to avoid reality. Much like the good old shibboleth of "you must be a Putin puppet" if a person is not 100% on board with starting a global war to eject Russia from Ukraine. 

Nor is the USA the United Kingdom France or any democracy…..nor was japan or Germany in the 40s look at them now not perfect but much much better and they are thriving .Ukraine doesn’t even compare to the heinous regimes that those 2 examples were in the past,they are a work in progress and far better than Russia under Putin.I don’t know the weapons systems of the nato nations but I suspect some do have very long range hyper accurate weapons systems.we here in the USA certainly do we are a nato member.Im sure glad our leaders didn’t think like you during ww2 and let England have to capitulate to the Nazi……salva Ukraine 🇺🇦 

[jvs]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

That's true.

But the west isn't helping Ukraine enough to actually win.

It still isn't.

Just enough to not lose and the eight month delay from the Putin adjacent U.S. maga fascists saw Ukraine on a losing slide.

So to me it's not about capability (yes the west has it) but political will and patience. Russia historically is into very long wars. The west particularly Americans have five minute attention spans.

I know a lot of people are saying sanctions do not work and the russian economy is doing really well!

Absolute bovine feces!

Russia is slowly falling apart from the inside out,no maintenance,no parts,Gazprom in trouble,the ruble is falling.The list goes on and on,people are being picked up in nightclubs and send straight to the front,to die!

 

[Purdey]

20 hours ago, johng said:

Does NATO have sufficient soldiers to attack Russia ?

I didn't hear anything about NATO attacking Russia, just the other way around. Could happen but unlikely to.

[Hanaguma]

6 hours ago, Tug said:

Nor is the USA the United Kingdom France or any democracy…..nor was japan or Germany in the 40s look at them now not perfect but much much better and they are thriving .Ukraine doesn’t even compare to the heinous regimes that those 2 examples were in the past,they are a work in progress and far better than Russia under Putin.I don’t know the weapons systems of the nato nations but I suspect some do have very long range hyper accurate weapons systems.we here in the USA certainly do we are a nato member.Im sure glad our leaders didn’t think like you during ww2 and let England have to capitulate to the Nazi……salva Ukraine 🇺🇦 

Ludicrous comparisons abound- England vs. Germany in 1940 as comparable to Ukraine today? Don't make me laugh.  There is no world war happening now, and god willing one won't break out. Ukraine isn't worth the life of one Canadian soldier IMHO, especially since getting involved would provoke a global war. Ain't worth that either. 

 

At the moment it is all about posturing and chest puffing, not about actual policy and searching for solutions. 

[CharlieKo]

15 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Note the lack of blame where it belongs. Putin  Clearly I nailed the maga label.

Dream on. I'm not Maga, I'm not even American. But you do show just how demented Americans are. There is no rationality, your either for Biden or Trump. Blinded by your own stupidity!   

[Gweiloman]

11 hours ago, jvs said:

I know a lot of people are saying sanctions do not work and the russian economy is doing really well!

Absolute bovine feces!

Russia is slowly falling apart from the inside out,no maintenance,no parts,Gazprom in trouble,the ruble is falling.The list goes on and on,people are being picked up in nightclubs and send straight to the front,to die!

 

There was a recent quote by John Mearsheimer about Lindsey Graham. “He and I live on different planets.”

 

Welcome to the forum, Lindsey.

[riclag]

17 hours ago, TedG said:

The West can beat Russia. Russian can't even handle Ukraine. 

To be honest The politicians are willing to replicate what Hamas has subjected Gazian inhabitants to  being human shields imop!

 

I remember the cold war and having air raid drills in school, while having to cower under the classroom desk.

It just takes one bomb , one crazy mis step.

 

I remember being 90 miles away from Cuba missiles and fleeing

in panic while we vacationed in Miami.

 

Childhood Memories Of The Cuban Missile Crisis

https://www.npr.org/2012/10/22/163395079/childhood-memories-of-the-cuban-missile-crisis

 

[Cryingdick]

On 6/21/2024 at 10:21 AM, Denim said:

 

You might do well to add Poland to your in depth study.

 

They have been expanding their military considerably  recently in preparation for any Russian aggression. Last I read they have over 600 tanks plus additional armored vehicles. 

 

Secondly , let us look at moral. We can see how enthusiastic the average Russian male is about an expansion of the war by the numbers of them that have fled the country rather than fight. If Russia attacks Nato their troops will not be as motivated as the defenders.

 

Therefore a dangerous situation will quickly arise whereby Putin will have to go nuclear as a last resort to save his sorry ass . Not a good outcome for the planet. It all depends on whether there is anyone in Russia capable of removing Putin before he cuts of everyone's nose to spite his face.

 

Trump was instrumental in helping Poland do this. They were even going to name a base after him. Plland has always been a very strong Poland first type of place they have been effed with a lot. I lived there for nearly a decade.