Fire sparks chaos: Lithium battery turns van to ashes in Chon Buri

[Georgealbert]

35 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

It's worth noting a fire hose was ineffective in extinguishing the fire. Just as well it did not occur in an enclosed space, such as undercover parking.

 

The fire extinguished by hose-lines using water. The initial attack in the video, used a jet, which is always going to be ineffective. As soon as the responders started using a spray pattern, hence greater cooling, the fire was knocked down and extinguished.

 

The poor firefighting is due to the fact that responders are not wearing SCBA (self contained breathing apparatus) and most not even in fire kit, thus they are prevented in getting close to the fire. As the van is destroyed anyway, the responders are not going to take any risk, as nothing is savable.

 

What do you think they used, there is zero evidence of foam or dry powder being used. This was a standard vehicle fire, nothing special.

 

Edited Saturday at 09:58 AM by Georgealbert

[Lacessit]

13 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

 

The fire extinguished by hose-lines using water. The initial attack in the video, used a jet, which is always going to be ineffective. As soon as the responders started using a spray pattern, hence greater cooling, the fire was knocked down and extinguished.

 

The poor firefighting is due to the fact that responders are not wearing SCBA (self contained breathing apparatus) and most not even in fire kit, thus they are prevented in getting close to the fire.

 

What do you think they used, there is zero evidence of foam or dry powder being used. This was a standard vehicle fire, nothing special.

 

A lithium battery fire generates nasty compounds such as hydrogen fluoride and phosgene. It's therefore not a regular ICE battery fire.

 

I don't know the size of the battery used in the DIY conversion. The chemistry of lithium fires includes the fact the battery contains its own oxygen supply, which makes such fires impossible to extinguish by conventional means.

[JBChiangRai]

49 minutes ago, sandyf said:

All vehicles will go on fire if set alight. The source of ignition can be deliberate, accidental or malfunction.

Lithium batteries are exactly that wherever they are used, I would have thought by now everyone would have been aware of the risks involved in their use.

 

Yet the fact remains that BEV's are massively less likely to catch fire than a legacy car.

[Georgealbert]

6 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

A lithium battery fire generates nasty compounds such as hydrogen fluoride and phosgene. It's therefore not a regular ICE battery fire.

 

I don't know the size of the battery used in the DIY conversion. The chemistry of lithium fires includes the fact the battery contains its own oxygen supply, which makes such fires impossible to extinguish by conventional means.

Thanks for the science lesson, I am fully aware of how to extinguish a li-ion fire, and this fire was clearly extinguished with only water.

 

This was not a EV, the battery that was installed was very probably small, and may have started the fire, but had zero to do on the development of the fire. This was not a EV thermal runaway event, just a standard car fire, like this car fire in Nong Chok, this afternoon.

 

[steven100]

I am sorry to say that the guy only has himself to blame for the fire.  As noted,  he installed a lithium battery to run his AC,  obviously he didn't install it correctly.   

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Yet the fact remains that BEV's are massively less likely to catch fire than a legacy car.

True. However, they do burn at 2700 C instead of 900 C, and generate far more toxic smoke.

 

There's a ship at the bottom of the Atlantic which, on balance of probabilities, got there thanks to an EV fire.

[neverere]

14 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

You're forgetting that EV's are between 11 and 130 times less likely to catch fire than an ICE car.

 

I suspect this guy has wired a 12v lithium battery in parallel with his existing 12v battery expecting the car to charge it.  There was likely no BMS (Battery Management System) and if you overcharge a Lithium battery for any length of time, you will destroy it, most likely it will catch fire.

 

We have 2 Lithium batteries that replaced the Lead-Acid ones in two motorbikes.  They have the all-important BMS built into the battery.

11 to 130 times? That is not a very credible stat. Chat AI gives me the following; "It is difficult to make a direct comparison between electric vehicles and internal combustion vehicles in terms of fire risk because there are many factors that can influence the likelihood of a vehicle catching fire, such as maintenance, age, and driving conditions. However, some studies have shown that electric vehicles are generally less likely to catch fire compared to internal combustion vehicles. For example, a study conducted by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration found that electric vehicles had a lower fire risk compared to internal combustion vehicles. Additionally, electric vehicle manufacturers have implemented safety features such as battery cooling systems and thermal management to reduce the risk of fire in their vehicles." The lack of a battery cooling system (BMS) indeed might have been a factor in this vehicle fire.

[Georgealbert]

10 hours ago, Lacessit said:

True. However, they do burn at 2700 C instead of 900 C, and generate far more toxic smoke.

 

There's a ship at the bottom of the Atlantic which, on balance of probabilities, got there thanks to an EV fire.

Can you please supply a credible link to the claims, as the NFPA (National Fite Protection Association) testing from August 2023, found EVs & ICEVs burn at a similar heat, refuting the common misconception that EVs burn hotter than ICEV.

 

Water Spray Fire Suppression Tests Comparing Gasoline-Fuelled and Battery Electric Vehicles (Published August 2023)

 

Testing also found that a fire in a battery electric vehicle does not seem to be more challenging than a fire in a gasoline-fuelled vehicle for a drencher system designed in accordance with current international recommendations, in the performance efficiency of water spray fire suppression systems (often denoted “drencher systems”) typically installed on ro–ro cargo and ro–ro passenger ships

 

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10694-023-01473-w

 

Analysis of combustion gases from large-scale electric vehicle fire tests 

 

Furthermore calculations of the heat release rate, peak heat release rate and total heat release were performed, as well as chemical analysis of gas and soot. Peak heat release rate and total heat release were affected by the fire scenario and vehicle model, but not significantly by the type of powertrain. Regarding the combustion gases, hydrogen fluoride represented the largest difference between electric vehicles and internal combustion engine vehicles. Additionally, battery specific metals such as manganese, nickel, cobalt and lithium were found in higher concentrations in the electric vehicle tests than in the internal combustion vehicle tests, in which larger quantities of lead were found.

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0379711223000978

Edited Saturday at 10:42 PM by Georgealbert

[jacko45k]

21 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

You're forgetting that EV's are between 11 and 130 times less likely to catch fire than an ICE car.

Got statistics for that? I am particularly interested in fires that come about after an accident....

The issue with EV vehicle car fires is you can't put them out. One reason they are sometimes prohibited from car parking facilities. 

[watchcat]

On 6/28/2024 at 7:39 AM, snoop1130 said:

I saw the flames starting from the lithium battery.

 

 Using X-ray vision specs ?

[Georgealbert]

8 minutes ago, watchcat said:

 

 Using X-ray vision specs ?

It was not an EV, just a self installed battery for the AC, so I would assume it was easy to access and see the flame.

[Lacessit]

24 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

Can you please supply a credible link to the claims, as the NFPA (National Fite Protection Association) testing from August 2023, found EVs & ICEVs burn at a similar heat, refuting the common misconception that EVs burn hotter than ICEV.

 

Water Spray Fire Suppression Tests Comparing Gasoline-Fuelled and Battery Electric Vehicles (Published August 2023)

 

Testing also found that a fire in a battery electric vehicle does not seem to be more challenging than a fire in a gasoline-fuelled vehicle for a drencher system designed in accordance with current international recommendations, in the performance efficiency of water spray fire suppression systems (often denoted “drencher systems”) typically installed on ro–ro cargo and ro–ro passenger ships

 

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10694-023-01473-w

 

Analysis of combustion gases from large-scale electric vehicle fire tests 

 

Furthermore calculations of the heat release rate, peak heat release rate and total heat release were performed, as well as chemical analysis of gas and soot. Peak heat release rate and total heat release were affected by the fire scenario and vehicle model, but not significantly by the type of powertrain. Regarding the combustion gases, hydrogen fluoride represented the largest difference between electric vehicles and internal combustion engine vehicles. Additionally, battery specific metals such as manganese, nickel, cobalt and lithium were found in higher concentrations in the electric vehicle tests than in the internal combustion vehicle tests, in which larger quantities of lead were found.

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0379711223000978

I can't remember the source of the 2700 C claim, which from further checking is actually 2700 F.

 

This is what Gemini ( Google AI ) has to say:

 

"EV fires and ICE fires burn differently due to the materials involved.

 

• EV fires: Lithium-ion batteries burn at very high temperatures, around 1500°C (2732°F). However, these fires are less common than ICE fires.

• ICE fires: Fueled by gasoline and oil, ICE fires typically burn around 800°C (1472°F). They are more frequent than EV fires.

While EV fires burn hotter, they occur significantly less often. Additionally, EV fires tend to develop slower, giving occupants more time to evacuate."

 

Permit me to doubt the claim water sprays or mists are effective. The chemistry of a LI battery is LiFePO4, i.e. 4 atoms of oxygen for every atom of lithium. In other words, a lithium fire has its own oxygen supply.

 

When I see official bodies publishing data or claims that don't make sense, the question becomes - who funded the research?

[Skipalongcassidy]

50 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

Can you please supply a credible link to the claims, as the NFPA (National Fite Protection Association) testing from August 2023, found EVs & ICEVs burn at a similar heat, refuting the common misconception that EVs burn hotter than ICEV. 

EV fires burn hotter: Lithium-ion battery fires can be up to 1,000 degrees (F) hotter than a combustion engine fire. This means that if an EV catches fire, it can pose a greater risk to other objects around it—like other EVs or cars in a parking garage, or a nearby building...  Electric Vehicle Fire Risk (verisk.com)

[Georgealbert]

8 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I can't remember the source of the 2700 C claim, which from further checking is actually 2700 F.

 

This is what Gemini ( Google AI ) has to say:

 

"EV fires and ICE fires burn differently due to the materials involved.

 

• EV fires: Lithium-ion batteries burn at very high temperatures, around 1500°C (2732°F). However, these fires are less common than ICE fires.

• ICE fires: Fueled by gasoline and oil, ICE fires typically burn around 800°C (1472°F). They are more frequent than EV fires.

While EV fires burn hotter, they occur significantly less often. Additionally, EV fires tend to develop slower, giving occupants more time to evacuate."

 

Permit me to doubt the claim water sprays or mists are effective. The chemistry of a LI battery is LiFePO4, i.e. 4 atoms of oxygen for every atom of lithium. In other words, a lithium fire has its own oxygen supply.

 

When I see official bodies publishing data or claims that don't make sense, the question becomes - who funded the research?

55555 as expected.

 

So I show the science research, published by professional bodies and peer reviewed, but you don’t want to believe it! 

 

I ask again please supply creditable links to support your claims.

 

Your earlier posts about water hose-lines not working on this non EV fire, shows that you have never extinguished a vehicle fire, just unqualified Dunning and Kruger effect.

 

Bye and have a good day, pointless to continue a debate when someone refuses to except facts and data, remember it is ignorant speculation that fuels misinformation.

[Georgealbert]

19 minutes ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

EV fires burn hotter: Lithium-ion battery fires can be up to 1,000 degrees (F) hotter than a combustion engine fire. This means that if an EV catches fire, it can pose a greater risk to other objects around it—like other EVs or cars in a parking garage, or a nearby building...  Electric Vehicle Fire Risk (verisk.com)

Try reading the research papers I linked, their are published by professional bodies and peer reviewed.

 

I can link you to the real research, what I can’t do is make you understand it.

Edited Saturday at 11:53 PM by Georgealbert

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

55555 as expected.

 

So I show the science research, published by professional bodies and peer reviewed, but you don’t want to believe it! 

 

I ask again please supply creditable links to support your claims.

 

Your earlier posts about water hose-lines not working on this non EV fire, shows that you have never extinguished a vehicle fire, just unqualified Dunning and Kruger effect.

 

Bye and have a good day, pointless to continue a debate when someone refuses to except facts and data, remember it is ignorant speculation that fuels misinformation.

I learned to be cynical about so-called professional bodies a long time ago. One example is a pharmaceutical company testing an experimental drug on mice, that reported the mice were visually impaired. The statement was code for the mice being born without eyes.

 

It's "scientific research" and " accept facts and data". You don't do your credibility much good with those syntax errors.

 

There's one information source making the vague claim ICE and EV fires burn at similar temperatures. Another source stating specific combustion temperatures of both. I know which data source I prefer.

 

Have you extinguished an EV fire yourself? Dunning-Kruger effect indeed.

[JBChiangRai]

8 hours ago, neverere said:

11 to 130 times? That is not a very credible stat. Chat AI gives me the following; "It is difficult to make a direct comparison between electric vehicles and internal combustion vehicles in terms of fire risk because there are many factors that can influence the likelihood of a vehicle catching fire, such as maintenance, age, and driving conditions. However, some studies have shown that electric vehicles are generally less likely to catch fire compared to internal combustion vehicles. For example, a study conducted by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration found that electric vehicles had a lower fire risk compared to internal combustion vehicles. Additionally, electric vehicle manufacturers have implemented safety features such as battery cooling systems and thermal management to reduce the risk of fire in their vehicles." The lack of a battery cooling system (BMS) indeed might have been a factor in this vehicle fire.

 

49 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Got statistics for that? I am particularly interested in fires that come about after an accident....

The issue with EV vehicle car fires is you can't put them out. One reason they are sometimes prohibited from car parking facilities. 

 

The stats have been posted probably about a dozen times now on these forums, but I'll post them again, just for special you.  The figures are how often a car with an ICE engine under the bonnet catches fire compared to a pure EV, figures are per 100,000 sales so are harmonised to the fact there are more ICE vehicles on the road.

 

Sweden 147 times more likely (3400/23)

Petrol and diesel cars 20 times more likely to catch fire than EVs (thedriven.io)

 

Singapore 118 times more likely (356/3)

EV fire cases rise with growing adoption of such cars | The Straits Times

 

Australia 98 times more likely (393/4)

Electric vehicle fires are very rare. The risk for petrol and diesel vehicles is at least 20 times higher (theconversation.com)

 

America 199 times more likely (5004/25.1)

Government data show gasoline vehicles are up to 100x more prone to fires than EVs | Electrek

 

 

 

[Georgealbert]

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

I learned to be cynical about so-called professional bodies a long time ago. One example is a pharmaceutical company testing an experimental drug on mice, that reported the mice were visually impaired. The statement was code for the mice being born without eyes.

 

It's "scientific research" and " accept facts and data". You don't do your credibility much good with those syntax errors.

 

There's one information source making the vague claim ICE and EV fires burn at similar temperatures. Another source stating specific combustion temperatures of both. I know which data source I prefer.

 

Have you extinguished an EV fire yourself? Dunning-Kruger effect indeed.

So again absolutely nothing but your own paranoid belief and a pedantic questioning of my use of words. Please where are you links to you claimed research or are you talking about  the web page posted above?

 

My qualifications are MIFireE, specialising in 4 subjects, fire engineering, fire safety, fire investigation and aviation response.

 

I am fully experienced in all aspects of emergency response, having almost 40 years of hands on real inexperience.

 

It is so funny to be lectured by 2 AN non-specialist, that probably can’t even understand the way the research tests were carried out.

 

Have a good day, and try not to embarrass yourself further.

[Skipalongcassidy]

35 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

Try reading the research papers I linked, their are published by professional bodies and peer reviewed.

 

I can link you to the real research, what I can’t do is make you understand it.

Ah... I just knew there were no "credible" sources other than yours... HAHAHAHAHA

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, Georgealbert said:

So again absolutely nothing but your own paranoid belief and a pedantic questioning of my use of words. Please where are you links to you claimed research or are you talking about  the web page posted above?

 

My qualifications are MIFireE, specialising in 4 subjects, fire engineering, fire safety, fire investigation and aviation response.

 

I am fully experienced in all aspects of emergency response, having almost 40 years of hands on real inexperience.

 

It is so funny to be lectured by 2 AN non-specialist, that probably can’t even understand the way the research tests were carried out.

 

Have a good day, and try not to embarrass yourself further.

You fail to answer my question: Have you extinguished an EV fire yourself?

 

Until you do, your extensive experience in fire fighting means nothing.

 

Please do some proofreading of your posts. I don't think you meant to say "almost 40 years of hands on real INEXPERIENCE".

 

Have a good day, and try not to embarrass yourself further.

[Ralf001]

23 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

You're forgetting that EV's are between 11 and 130 times less likely to catch fire than an ICE car.

 

I suspect this guy has wired a 12v lithium battery in parallel with his existing 12v battery expecting the car to charge it.  There was likely no BMS (Battery Management System) and if you overcharge a Lithium battery for any length of time, you will destroy it, most likely it will catch fire.

 

We have 2 Lithium batteries that replaced the Lead-Acid ones in two motorbikes.  They have the all-important BMS built into the battery.

 

Yeah lithium is the go.

 

I run 14.8v Jag35 batteries in two of my vehicles solely for the stereo system.

 

[jacko45k]

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

The stats have been posted probably about a dozen times now

Well statistics can prove anything especially with a government agenda behind them......I  just know a petrol car will not burst into uncontrollable flames if hit by something as likely as a lithium battery.

8 EVs a day catch fire in China.

 

There is that fear you are sitting on a bomb with batteries and a speed bump might be a risk.  Newer battery technology may reduce that fear.  

[Georgealbert]

12 minutes ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

Ah... I just knew there were no "credible" sources other than yours... HAHAHAHAHA

So post some credible research and stop embarrassing yourself with you lack of knowledge.

[Georgealbert]

6 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You fail to answer my question: Have you extinguished an EV fire yourself?

 

Until you do, your extensive experience in fire fighting means nothing.

 

Please do some proofreading of your posts. I don't think you meant to say "almost 40 years of hands on real INEXPERIENCE".

 

Have a good day, and try not to embarrass yourself further.

Yes I have lots of experience of Li-ion fires of all types, not just EVs, and also the research into them to produce operational/safety procedures and guidance.

Oh look  I made a spelling error, I must be human, but also I did provide the links with the evidence to support my claims, which you and the other poster have failed to do.

 

Bye and remember the first rules of holes, when in one stop digging.

 

[Lacessit]

7 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

Yes I have lots of experience of Li-ion fires of all types, not just EVs, and also the research into them to produce operational/safety procedures and guidance.

Oh look  I made a spelling error, I must be human, but also I did provide the links with the evidence to support my claims, which you and the other poster have failed to do.

 

Bye and remember the first rules of holes, when in one stop digging.

 

According to the stats, an EV fire is 60 times less likely to occur than an ICE fire. Another stat says EV's worldwide are 18% of vehicles in 2023. IMO it's fair to assume older vehicles are more prone to fires.

 

Those three facts cause me to doubt your statement you have "lots of experience". Anyone can make claims behind a keyboard.

[Georgealbert]

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

According to the stats, an EV fire is 60 times less likely to occur than an ICE fire. Another stat says EV's worldwide are 18% of vehicles in 2023. IMO it's fair to assume older vehicles are more prone to fires.

 

Those three facts cause me to doubt your statement you have "lots of experience". Anyone can make claims behind a keyboard.

55555 still digging.

 

Read my post I said all Li-ion fires, not just EVs.

Edited Sunday at 01:00 AM by Georgealbert

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

55555 still digging.

 

Read my post I said all Li-ion fires, not just EVs.

Yes you did.

 

There's a bit of a difference between a p!ssant lithium battery in a smartphone, and the 75 kWh a Tesla is packing. That's where my BS radar is on full alert.

[Georgealbert]

15 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Yes you did.

 

There's a bit of a difference between a p!ssant lithium battery in a smartphone, and the 75 kWh a Tesla is packing. That's where my BS radar is on full alert.

5555 now digging and deflection.

 

That is called development, hence why research is carried out and operational/safety guidance, covering all

risks are amended and updated to reflect those developments.

 

Also EV manufacturers work with bodies like the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) on guidance.

 

https://www.nfpa.org/education-and-research/emergency-response/emergency-response-guides#aq=%40culture%3D"en"&cq=%40taglistingpage%3D%3D("EV Guides") &numberOfResults=12&sortCriteria=%40title ascending

Edited Sunday at 01:24 AM by Georgealbert

[TroubleandGrumpy]

10 hours ago, neverere said:

11 to 130 times? That is not a very credible stat. Chat AI gives me the following; "It is difficult to make a direct comparison between electric vehicles and internal combustion vehicles in terms of fire risk because there are many factors that can influence the likelihood of a vehicle catching fire, such as maintenance, age, and driving conditions. However, some studies have shown that electric vehicles are generally less likely to catch fire compared to internal combustion vehicles. For example, a study conducted by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration found that electric vehicles had a lower fire risk compared to internal combustion vehicles. Additionally, electric vehicle manufacturers have implemented safety features such as battery cooling systems and thermal management to reduce the risk of fire in their vehicles." The lack of a battery cooling system (BMS) indeed might have been a factor in this vehicle fire.

The reality is that those stats are a statistical manipulation. More EVs burn than ICE - but there are so many more ICE vehicles that the total numbers are incomparable. But the fact is that EVs (L-I batteries) burn far hotter, far longer, and emit far more toxic smoke - the damage from an EV fire is vastly more than a fire in an ICE vehicle.  I will never take a long ferry ride with my vehicle in Thailand or anywhere else. A short trip is OK, but an over-nighter with a potential EV fire than can sink the ship, is a genuine concern. Especially when Somchai can and does install things himself to 'make it better'. 

EVs are early days and I am sure over time they will develop a solution to the fires issue - but I also know that there is a concerted (if misguided) push to get everyone to buy EVs to 'save the planet' - which means negatives like this about EVs will not be 'publicised' as much as they should. The PR should be greater, both to warn people, and to also make the developers solve the problem quickly.

[SAFETY FIRST]

On 6/28/2024 at 2:39 PM, snoop1130 said:

installed an additional lithium battery to power the vehicle’s air conditioning system. 

I'd like to know more about installing a battery to power my vehicles AC system (professionally 😂) 

 

At times I must go visit the in laws, they don't have air conditioning in their house, summer months are unbearable. 

 

I'd like to buy a carton of beer, just sit in my car, stereo connected to Spotify and chill with the AC for hours......and maybe a bit of hanky panky with the gf 😎. 

 

Edited Sunday at 01:33 AM by SAFETY FIRST