Using an overseas Debit Card to minimise paying tax for those of us staying over 180 days

[Ralf001]

3 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Scroll up till you get to topt, 15 posts up

 

It's all there.

 

thanks.

 

wonder if I can claim the 60k on top of the 30k allowance I get with my PIT ?

[rhodie]

2 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

The Gift Tax rate for the non-related receivers is 10% while it is 5% for descendants or ascendants. For those who are eligible to pay 10% gift tax are offered an opportunity to pay 5% gift tax rate. This is under certain circumstances only.

Are you sure there wasn't any text before your quote?

 

Gift tax rates in Thailand are structured to favor transfers to direct relatives. For gifts to ascendants, descendants, or spouses, the tax-free threshold is 20 million baht per year to a single recipient, with a tax rate of 5% applied to amounts exceeding this threshold. For gifts to individuals who are not the taxpayer’s parent, descendant, or spouse, the exemption is up to 10 million baht per year per recipient, with a 5% tax rate on the excess. These thresholds and rates are essential for planning significant gift transfers to ensure they are executed in a tax-efficient manner.

 

The first 10 million is tax free.

[Mike Teavee]

14 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Care to share how.

 

I see as I am over 65, I get 190,000 baht for self, wife 60,000 baht, and shopping tax allowance 50,000 baht, so there is up to 300,000 baht, I can get off with, that said, if I bring a mil in, I am going to pay over 100k baht in taxes, unless I can deduct more.

Married & Over 65, your TEDA is at least:-

1. 60k (your Personal Allowance)
2. 60K (Allowance for your wife)
3. 190K (> 65)
4. 100K (Pension Expense)
5. 150K (0% Tax Band)

  = 560K so you would be taxed on the remaining 440K which works out as 41,000 (150K*5% + 200K*10% + 90K*15%= 7,500 + 20,000 + 13,500). 

 

Then most people are covered by a DTA & can offset any tax they've already paid on the income in their home country, e.g. If that 1Million THB income came from UK Pensions then that's approx. £22,200 on which you would have paid £1,924.20 (Approx. 87,000 THB) so you would have no Tax to pay (Unfortunately you cannot claim back any extra tax you've paid in the UK). 

[4MyEgo]

6 minutes ago, rhodie said:

Gift tax rates in Thailand are structured to favor transfers to direct relatives. For gifts to ascendants, descendants, or spouses, the tax-free threshold is 20 million baht per year to a single recipient, with a tax rate of 5% applied to amounts exceeding this threshold. For gifts to individuals who are not the taxpayer’s parent, descendant, or spouse, the exemption is up to 10 million baht per year per recipient, with a 5% tax rate on the excess. These thresholds and rates are essential for planning significant gift transfers to ensure they are executed in a tax-efficient manner.

 

I am now also reading that money remitted to the above is assessable income, so Mr Farang will have to pay tax on it, regardless if it went direct into the above's account from abroad.

 

It's becoming boring....

[norbra]

31 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said:

If the Revenue dept take a simplistic view (likely as it is the easy way) all remittances will be looked at as income and you will have to prove otherwise.

That's OK as I have the proof of non assessable remits.

Also the revenue department refused to provide me with a Tax number

[NoDisplayName]

15 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Care to share how.

 

I see as I am over 65, I get 190,000 baht for self, wife 60,000 baht, and shopping tax allowance 50,000 baht, so there is up to 300,000 baht, I can get off with, that said, if I bring a mil in, I am going to pay over 100k baht in taxes, unless I can deduct more.

 

There are also deductions for premiums to Thai companies for health insurance and life insurance....for you and wife........total up to 100K.

[4MyEgo]

5 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Married & Over 65, your TEDA is at least:-

1. 60k (your Personal Allowance)
2. 60K (Allowance for your wife)
3. 190K (> 65)
4. 100K (Pension Expense)
5. 150K (0% Tax Band)

 

Too bad I'm not on a pension, I am a self funded retiree.

 

6 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

= 560K so you would be taxed the remaining 440K which works out as 41,000 (150K*5% + 200K*10% + 90K*15%= 7,500 + 20,000 + 13,500). 

 

I will find a way to make it zero 🙂

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

, and is legal.

 

What this means is, I pay zero tax, oh and yes, as soon as the money hits the in-laws accounts, my wife can make an internet transfer from the bank (newly set up from the in-laws accounts) to her account, and we can make withdrawals when we fill it necessary via my wife's account.

 

It's "legal" until you get caught.

Then it's tax evasion.

 

Good lucky!

[4MyEgo]

3 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

There are also deductions for premiums to Thai companies for health insurance and life insurance....for you and wife........total up to 100K.

 

Personally wouldn't insure with a Thai company, have witnessed bad outcomes with farangs I know.

[patman30]

How much can you gift a non-related, non-tax resident?
(who then lets you use their ATM/debit card to buy you everything)

[4MyEgo]

Just now, NoDisplayName said:

It's "legal" until you get caught.

Then it's tax evasion.

 

So I am just finding out by doing more research.

[4MyEgo]

Just now, patman30 said:

How much can you gift a non-related, non-tax resident?
(who then lets you use their ATM/debit card to buy you everything)

 

They have you buy the balls, i.e. any money remitted by Mr Farang to Thailand is assessable income, regardless if you gifted it to non related party.

 

I know it sucks..... 😞

 

 

[chiang mai]

16 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Thanks for the detailed information, however it isn't really relevant.

 

Thailand's tax code states any money remitted to Thailand, using a debit card isn't remitting money to Thailand, suffice to say, if you have a Thai bank account and send money to it via Wise, you are remitting money into Thailand and are subject to tax.

 

Using a debit card is not remitting money into Thailand, you are using funds from an overseas debit card, not a bank in Thailand.

 

I am 99.99% certain this is not illegal, it's a loop hole in the system, which I am looking to avoid paying tax legally.

 

So far I have found out that Wise charge 1.75% on any ATM amount above $350 per month, i.e. they allow you two withdrawals up to $350 per month for free, once you go over that, you pay the 1.75% fee.

 

The above said, you don't charge an ATM fee, albeit you could say the 1.75% fee over $350 per month is just that, and ATM charge, then you have the 200 baht ATM charge at the ATM machine for the Thai bank, up to 20,000 baht, so your combined charges would be about 402.80 baht per 20,000 baht withdrawal x 12 = 4,833.60.

 

Now if you require more than that which I would, that could be around 20,000 per annum, so now one has to weigh up what one would be looking at paying tax per annum for remitting money into Thailand.

 

I dare say, everybody gets a slice of your hard earned $'s, now you might say 20,000 baht a year isn't much, but to me, it's 20,000 baht more per year that I am contributing to Thailand and getting nothing in return.

"Thailand's tax code states any money remitted to Thailand, using a debit card isn't remitting money to Thailand".

 

Where exactly in the tax code does it say that? I don't believe it says anything of the sort.

[patman30]

7 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

money remitted by Mr Farang to Thailand is assessable income

Only if Mr Farang IS a tax resident (and funds are earned/acquired after Jan 2024)

Mr farang A lives in Thailand
Mr ferang B does not 
funds are remitted to Mr Ferang B's Thai bank account
who then buys everything for mr ferang A, as he is kind and generous

[NoDisplayName]

5 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

They have you buy the balls, i.e. any money remitted by Mr Farang to Thailand is assessable income, regardless if you gifted it to non related party.

 

I know it sucks..... 😞

 

 

 

Do more research.

Remitted does not mean assessable or taxed.

 

Income earned after Jan 01, 2024 and remitted is assessable and taxed.

Prior income and "savings" remitted is non-assessable and not taxed.

 

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

11 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Personally wouldn't insure with a Thai company, have witnessed bad outcomes with farangs I know.

 

This deduction would be for Thai wife's private health insurance to supplement the national coverage.  She also gets a deduction for payments into the social security fund.

 

Would also come into effect for expats required to buy Thai insurance for their O-A visas.

 

In addition there are deductions for investing in certain mutual funds and retirement funds.

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Are gifts taxable in Thailand?

Amount of Taxation
The Gift Tax rate for the non-related receivers is 10% while it is 5% for descendants or ascendants. For those who are eligible to pay 10% gift tax are offered an opportunity to pay 5% gift tax rate. This is under certain circumstances only.

 

The above said, I think I have come up with what I believe to be a brainstorm idea for those with in-laws over 65 who don't have an income, plus my wife not having an income.

 

Actually the wife came up with the in-laws idea, so credit to her.

 

I gift 190,000 to my father-in-law & another 190,000 to my mother-in-law as they are allowed a 190,000 deductible, (accounts to be open with no ATM cards, so no annual fee for each account.

 

These will be new accounts which my wife of 2 decades will hold, I will then transfer 150,000 baht to my wife's account, i.e. also a gift and is under the threshold amount of 150,000.

 

The total gifted comes to 530,000 and I have 460,000 worth of deductibles, i.e. 990,000 in total, as I am over 65 years of age and can claim 150,000 for age, then 60,000 as a self personal allowance, plus 60,000 to wife as a personal allowance, so 990,000, that's as close to the mil as one can get which suites me, and is legal.

 

What this means is, I pay zero tax, oh and yes, as soon as the money hits the in-laws accounts, my wife can make an internet transfer from the bank (newly set up from the in-laws accounts) to her account, and we can make withdrawals when we fill it necessary via my wife's account.

 

I will keep the 400,000 baht required in my account for the annual marriage extension which has been in my account prior to 2024. 

 

More than one way to claw back to what I perceive as a stupid law as we already contribute to Thailand's economy.

 

If anyone foresees a problem with how I'm thinking, please feel free to burst my bubble.

 

 

While the tax rate for descendants and ascendants is correctly given at 5% you miss the point that it is only changed after 20 million. Under 20 million gifts with the correct paperwork are tax free so as long as you complete the correct documentation you can ignore all the small transactions. However for the gift to be tax free it must be transferred directly to the recipient. To avoid Thai taxes on the money it needs to come directly from overseas to your wife’s account and she can not give any of the money to you 

[ballpoint]

Discussion on whether deposits into your Thai bank account(s) were from a local (or seemingly so, via Wise) source, or a foreign remit are pointless.  If you are audited they will want to know the source of every deposit made into your account(s).  Unless it was a local one from (for example) sale of a car, or other CGT free asset, it will still be treated as taxable income.  And if you do claim it was from a CGT free asset sale, they will want to see documentation proving this.  When it comes to tax law, you are guilty until proved innocent, and the onus of proof is with you, not them.

[gamb00ler]

15 hours ago, advancebooking said:

Why on earth would you worry or abide by the new proposed laws. The rev dept will be relying on people to be honest and declare the said income. BUT if you dont do you think they can do anything about it....

Last year the TRD scheduled a meeting with our son to discuss his compliance with collecting VAT on the sales at his chain of 4 restaurants.  The TRD had visited his restaurants on many days and observed the number of customers and from that estimated that he had underpaid the VAT due.  He said their estimate was reasonable.  He was able to negotiate a significant reduction in the amount they had assessed based on their estimate.  TRD was satisfied with the reduced payment.

 

The moral of the story is that TRD is not without the capability to do the work required to identify undeclared taxable revenue and they are open to reaching a compromise.

[PJ71]

A whole lot of fuss about nothing IMO.

 

Do we really expect the Thai authorities ( whatever dept ) to be able to figure this out and track / enforce it?

 

Personally i'm not worried.

[sometimewoodworker]

33 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Too bad I'm not on a pension, I am a self funded retiree.

You are misinterpreting the 100k, it is understandable as it has been miss worded by many posters 

 

You have up to 100k Deductions for Expenses that is not limited to pensions but is allowed against all income. You get the maximum 100k deduction as long as your assessable income is over 200k

Of course if you have no assessable income you don’t get the deduction but then it doesn’t matter as you won’t be paying anything anyway.

[gamb00ler]

32 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Income earned after Jan 01, 2024 and remitted is assessable and taxed.

Prior income and "savings" remitted is non-assessable and not taxed.

Hopefully, it will only take a handful more repetitions of this information to allay "the sky is falling" reactions to the updated TRD policy.

[Mike Teavee]

51 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Too bad I'm not on a pension, I am a self funded retiree.

 

 

I will find a way to make it zero 🙂

 

 

Per post above, the 100K is “Income Expense” (no need to prove) so you could send 210K direct to your wife (400K if she is also >65) which with your 500K TEDA your tax liability would be on a max of 390K.

 

Could even play about with the numbers so that you max out the Income Expense by splitting it with your wife (you can each have 100K but it’s limited to a max of 50% of each persons assessable income).

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

There remains a lot that is unknown about just how the new, already enacted Thai Revenue Department taxation scheme will operate for foreigners.... But some things are known pretty well, and others remain unconfirmed speculation at this point:

 

AFAIK, some pretty well confirmed things (and I'm doing this off the cuff, so correct me if I go astray):

 

--Savings accrued abroad prior to the start of 2024 should not be taxable if remitted into Thailand, no matter when that remittance occurs.

 

--Ongoing types of income excluded from Thai taxation under different countries' joint tax treaties with Thailand likewise should be exempted, but those income types vary by country/treaty, and the actual means of applying those treaty-based exclusions remains unclear.

 

--At present, there's nothing in the Thai Immigration realm of things -- at least for the typical marriage and retirement extension holders -- that requires those foreigners to show proof of having filed Thai tax returns.

 

Less clear details:

 

--the consensus of local tax professionals here seems to be that foreign transfers into Thai bank accounts likely will be the first and primary place that the Revenue Department likely will look to as sources of taxable foreign remittances.

 

--some local tax professionals have expressed their opinions that ATM withdrawals and purchases made here with foreign bank cards likely would not be tracked by the Thai Revenue Department as sources of taxable remitted foreign income. But I don't believe there's any RD regulation thus far saying that or clarifying their stance on that general topic.

 

--there's been a lot of discussion about the tax exclusion provisions in the Thai Revenue Code for gifts to spouses. Just how those provisions might operate for foreigners regarding remittance of foreign income remains unclear. And some local tax professionals have been advising that gaining a tax exclusion via that method likely won't be as simple as just transferring funds to a Thai spouse.

 

------------------

 

And, all of the above already enacted tax policy and regulation centered on foreign remittances into Thailand is separate from the subsequently aired future PROPOSAL (not enacted thus far) to apply Thai tax on worldwide income for those who are Thai tax residents, meaning those who live here more than half of the calendar year. Regardless of whether those foreign earnings are remitted into Thailand or not.

 

[Everyman]

More evidence of the paranoia and hysteria surrounding this issue. In a year nothing will have happened yet there will be even more speculation.  

[puck2]

Isn't it crazy that we Farangs must make a monthly money transfer of ~65.000 THB, 800.000 THB within a year, to receive a Visa for 1 year, if not married with a Thai.

 

But the Srettha government will tax us already with much lower money transfers to Thailand. It seems they need the Farang-Money to finance their expensive programs – Landbridge from Ranong to Chumpon, the Digital Wallet system (with an income below 70.000 THB monthly !!!), the list goes on.

 

 

This would be the amount, if you are married. Not married gives you a free money transfer of 500.000 THB (500.000 ./. 60.000). You could add a tax free amount of health insurance. But only, if you pay the insurance to a THAI company; a very friendly allowence (irony).

 

Now let's do the mathematic in the case of a single farang without a Thai insurence: (I use the VISA-rates of today (withpout any fees) for a transfer of ---->

 

500.000THB =in US $ = exchange rate: 35.200035 = 14.156,27 US$

500.000THB = in GBP =    “““                : 44.750,29 = 11.173,05 GBP

500.000THB = in EURO = ““““               : 38,505940 = 12.985,01 €

 

All money transfers, higher than mentioned before, would be taxed income. 500.000 THB means a monthly transfer of more than ~41.667 THB would be taxed.

 

Because the Thai system does not have something like a social system, I support the 2 children of my life partner including her grandchildren by at least 40.000THB per month. (we are not married). Both children have lost their jobs, because of the bad economic situation.

 

If the DTA (Double Tax Agreement) wouldn't work, they also would punish me for supporting her children and her grandchildren. What a shame for the ruling government.

 

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, Presnock said:

Right now, I believe that the govt does have people reading the comments  of folks on this forum and besides that Thai govt offices have probably already heard a lot of the same questions and responses of the tax agents locally too.  Therefore, this being TIT I can imagine that sometime in the near future anyone staying in Thailand will need to obtain a Thai Tax ID number.  Then when departing Thailand one will need a slip of paper stamped by the local RD that all necessary taxes have been paid prior to the IO stamping one out of the country or extending the stay of a possible Tax-resident.  TIT so that means anything could happen or nothing could happening - we as expats will be the last to know for sure.

It does sound like a lot of co-ordination and co-operation between the departments.

 

I suppose the test of your speculation will be

 

(a) When I go for my next extension in November, given the Thai tax year does not end until March 2025.

 

(b) whether I get issued a TTN by the RD, or get told it's not needed because I am a national that has a DTA with Thailand, OR I am below their radar as a pensioner.

 

Given I have plenty of documented pre-2024 savings, I am not really fussed. Just another layer of bureaucracy to keep the unemployment figure at 1%.

[advancebooking]

2 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

Last year the TRD scheduled a meeting with our son to discuss his compliance with collecting VAT on the sales at his chain of 4 restaurants.  The TRD had visited his restaurants on many days and observed the number of customers and from that estimated that he had underpaid the VAT due.  He said their estimate was reasonable.  He was able to negotiate a significant reduction in the amount they had assessed based on their estimate.  TRD was satisfied with the reduced payment.

 

The moral of the story is that TRD is not without the capability to do the work required to identify undeclared taxable revenue and they are open to reaching a compromise.

Well thats a shop front business isnt it. They drive past and see its busy etc. 

 

How on earth do you think this incompetent govt dept can enforce the new rules that they are proposing. Think about that. 

[advancebooking]

1 hour ago, Everyman said:

More evidence of the paranoia and hysteria surrounding this issue. In a year nothing will have happened yet there will be even more speculation.  

I agree. The rev dept is incompetent and will be unable to strictly enforce the new rules. Hopeless govt dept to say the least. Cannot effectively tax its own population. 71 million of them.   The only tax that they can enforce is the land taxes/ condo taxes

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, advancebooking said:

I agree. The rev dept is incompetent and will be unable to strictly enforce the new rules. Hopeless govt dept to say the least. Cannot effectively tax its own population. 71 million of them.   The only tax that they can enforce is the land taxes/ condo taxes

There are two aspects to this, the first is what the law says and the second is enforcement. As a foreigner on a long stay visa with a wife and family here, does anyone really need enforcement before they follow the prescribed law! The fact that many Thai's don't follow the law is not relevant, they can't get kicked out of the country for not doing so.