Taxation of foreighners in S/E Asia?

[dinga]

9 hours ago, Everyman said:

 

We already do, more than Thais because the government collects the bulk of its revenue from VAT, duties on imported goods and alcohol taxes. Foreigners spend more in all of those categories. 

MADE-UP NONSENSE  -  the following facts are from the 2024 Thailand Budget:

 

Collection of revenues can be classified by types of collection as follows. (1) Taxes (Net) Net taxes of 2,506,589.1 million baht, equivalent to 72.0 percent of the estimated receipts can be divided by direct and indirect taxes as follows.

(1.1) Direct taxes of 1,272,050.0 million baht include:  A.   Personal income tax B.   Corporate income tax C.   Petroleum income tax D.   Inheritance Tax

(1.2) Indirect taxes of 1,784,939.1 million baht include:  A.   General sales taxes - Value added tax - Specific business tax - Stamp duties B.   Specific sales taxes - Petroleum and petroleum products - Excise tax on imports 414,750.0 million baht 811,200.0 million baht 45,300.0 million baht 800.0 million baht 1,004,000.0 million baht 915,700.0 million baht 70,600.0 million baht 17,700.0 million baht 633,505.7 million baht 231,430.8 million baht 113,516.0 million baht 43 - Other consumption tax   - Mining royalties - Petroleum and natural gas royalties - Other natural resources royalties 252,353.2 million baht 2,160.0 million baht 33,979.0 million baht 66.7 million baht 112,700.0 million baht 34,733.4 million baht C. Export - Import duties D. Licensing fees 

 

 

 

 

[dinga]

9 hours ago, Everyman said:

 

We already do, more than Thais because the government collects the bulk of its revenue from VAT, duties on imported goods and alcohol taxes. Foreigners spend more in all of those categories. 

MADE-UP NONSENSE  -  the following facts are from the 2024 Thailand Budget:

 

Collection of revenues can be classified by types of collection as follows. (1) Taxes (Net) Net taxes of 2,506,589.1 million baht, equivalent to 72.0 percent of the estimated receipts can be divided by direct and indirect taxes as follows.

(1.1) Direct taxes of 1,272,050.0 million baht include:  A.   Personal income tax B.   Corporate income tax C.   Petroleum income tax D.   Inheritance Tax

(1.2) Indirect taxes of 1,784,939.1 million baht include:  A.   General sales taxes - Value added tax - Specific business tax - Stamp duties B.   Specific sales taxes - Petroleum and petroleum products - Excise tax on imports 414,750.0 million baht 811,200.0 million baht 45,300.0 million baht 800.0 million baht 1,004,000.0 million baht 915,700.0 million baht 70,600.0 million baht 17,700.0 million baht 633,505.7 million baht 231,430.8 million baht 113,516.0 million baht 43 - Other consumption tax   - Mining royalties - Petroleum and natural gas royalties - Other natural resources royalties 252,353.2 million baht 2,160.0 million baht 33,979.0 million baht 66.7 million baht 112,700.0 million baht 34,733.4 million baht C. Export - Import duties D. Licensing fees 

 

 

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, swissie said:

Well, "the moral of the story can only be": Look before you leap. No sense to avoid taxes in Thailand, only to find out that the taxes in the "new country of my choice" are equal or even higher than in Thailand.

Certain countries have a certain amount of enforcement capabilities.  Given Thailand has had a retirement visa for decades, thus has a long recent history of managing legal migration, mostly in the form of retired expats, I would say Thailand's ability to administer a tax policy, collect the tax, and enforce the policy, would be greater than neighboring countries. 

 

On that basis, as far as taxing foreigners is concerned, Thailand will be better at implementing a tax policy, in the same way they are better at hosting us, in relation to visas, bank accounts etc.  

 

You take the good with the bad with Thailand.  It's been a nice ride, but times are changing. 

[KhunHeineken]

10 hours ago, Everyman said:

 

We already do, more than Thais because the government collects the bulk of its revenue from VAT, duties on imported goods and alcohol taxes. Foreigners spend more in all of those categories. 

So, expats pay more VAT that 70 million Thai's.  Really? 

[Moonlover]

On 8/16/2024 at 8:20 AM, Henryford said:

On 8/15/2024 at 8:42 PM, ThaiPauly said:

Agreed

 

I want to buy a new car but worry that at the end of the year I will have to pay 25% tax on it!!!

 

So I will hold off until things become clearer

 

On 8/16/2024 at 8:20 AM, Henryford said:

 

I can't believe expats will have to pay tax on cars/houses 25-35%. It would destroy the condo market and put a big dent in the auto industry.

 

I came across this in an article in the Pattaya Mail recently. And this comment was made by the Director General of the TRD no less:

 

'Director General Kulaya stated that her department was widening the tax base and looking to increase revenue which had been negatively affected by the reduction in the number of condominium units sold over the past year'. 

 

I would hardly think that they would take action that would further depress the condo market. Same would be true of the auto market @ThaiPauly. I don't think you need be concerned at all.

 

https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/news/dont-panic-because-thai-revenue-has-written-to-100000-tax-residents-urging-registration-465598

[Presnock]

On 8/14/2024 at 9:02 PM, swissie said:

Taxation of foreighners an issue in Thailand. As I gather from different news sources, Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia also tax foreighn income. Only the Philippines do not. True/False?

If true, no escape left.

 

On 8/15/2024 at 11:38 AM, Yumthai said:

Plenty of countries where Tax Law is laxly enforced for some reasons, corruption being the main one.

As for the PI, I am also on their forum but only as a reader - I see the same kind of problems with the expats there, maybe not so much the tax issue but every other issue.  Most folks on their forum complain about visa issues though mentioning that iti is easier than here.  The PI is not as much a paradise as here unless you are looking for something specific - I lived there for 6 years - greatest scuba diving in the world and really go along well with the locals but the local food to me was not so well liked.  Weather about the same except the 15-20 storms they get every year, and the earthquakes are much stronger than here and active volcanos.  Other than the bad, the good was great and if I had to leave Thailand I definitely would consider the PI.  I also see many countries than did not do the tax bits before, now that they have signed on to the OECD, FACTA and CSA programs, are also working with their tax programs.  The only answers I see are the LTR if qualified and not becoming a tax resident but that probably will change in the future too since one of the stated reason for the OECD agreement was to seek out anyone not paying taxes to a country.  Best of luck to all

[retarius]

On 8/15/2024 at 3:46 AM, ukrules said:

There's plenty of room for 'escape', just make sure you don't stay anywhere for more than about 180 days per year.

 

 

Important: I am under the impression that you must spend less than 180 days ie 179 days or part thereof at the most. 

[Scouse123]

On 8/15/2024 at 9:47 AM, chiang mai said:

Playing devils advocate.....did you think you could move here to live and not have to contribute directly to the construction and maintenance of roads, airports, public hospitals, the police force, the government, schools and universities?

 

There is tax on every product we buy here including cars, food, hotels, beer, etc we pay road tax, most of us have first class insurance.

 

We pay for Thai members of family to go to university, well, I have.

 

We pay when the mother is sick to go to hospital;,

 

We certainly pay the Police on a regular basis, if you can call them a Police force, they like their money upfront,

 

I pay for hospitals through private insurance, the odd occasion I visit a public hospital, I pay.

 

If foreigners like me hadn't paid plenty, Isaarn wouldn't exist, because the bloody government hardly paid anything and it was neglected forever,

 

So what are you talking about?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17 by Scouse123

[Presnock]

19 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

 

There is tax on every product we buy here including cars, food, hotels, beer, etc we pay road tax, most of us have first class insurance.

 

We pay for Thai members of family to go to university, well, I have.

 

We pay when the mother is sick to go to hospital;,

 

We certainly pay the Police on a regular basis, if you can call them a Police force, they like their money upfront,

 

I pay for hospitals through private insurance, the odd occasion I visit a public hospital, I pay.

 

If foreigners like me hadn't paid plenty, Isaarn wouldn't exist, because the bloody government hardly paid anything and it was neglected forever,

 

So what are you talking about?

 

 

 

 

 

 

And pray tell, I too hate taxes but, I have paid them my entire working and now retired life - but, one of the stated reasons for the OECD 2023 agreement signed by 138 countries is that many people do not pay any tax required on their income!  Even if not in the OECD, FACTA and CSR signed by the US and other countries (including Thailand) have agreed to exchange banking info on their account holders.  At the beginning, one will be told and eventually it too might become an unlawful practice if one doesn not provide current address and providing a different or not valid address could lead to legal action.

[Presnock]

I personally think that eventually and don't have any idea how long it might take, but countries will change their tax residency so that none can escape paying someplace.  My feelings but 138 countries on this list though enough about non-payment of income taxes to sign on to the agreement - even China and some other odd ones..

14 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Certain countries have a certain amount of enforcement capabilities.  Given Thailand has had a retirement visa for decades, thus has a long recent history of managing legal migration, mostly in the form of retired expats, I would say Thailand's ability to administer a tax policy, collect the tax, and enforce the policy, would be greater than neighboring countries. 

 

On that basis, as far as taxing foreigners is concerned, Thailand will be better at implementing a tax policy, in the same way they are better at hosting us, in relation to visas, bank accounts etc.  

 

You take the good with the bad with Thailand.  It's been a nice ride, but times are changing. 

Totally agree, even with the LTR and DTA protecting me both ways - TIT and that all could change tomorrow just like the govt, but since they most likely want more retirees here or weathy people to come here long term, I think that they will grandfather those with certain benefits.  Of course that is wishful thinking on my part but...

[Deerculler]

On 8/15/2024 at 9:47 AM, chiang mai said:

Playing devils advocate.....did you think you could move here to live and not have to contribute directly to the construction and maintenance of roads, airports, public hospitals, the police force, the government, schools and universities?

All money that expats bring into Thailand cost Thailand nothing.

 We all pay tax on what we buy.

Expats do contribute a lot of money to the Thai coffers

And not get much in return.

 

 

 

[Thingamabob]

The revised regulations proposed by the Revenue Department have yet to be approved, and may never be. Even if, at some point in the future, they are approved there is then the issue of enforcement, which is casual, at best, in Thailand. 

[jesimps]

On 8/15/2024 at 11:55 AM, brianthainess said:

No one has started paying tax on foreign income yet so I wouldn't worry yet.

The attitude of my local tax office seems to back that up because they refused point blank to issue me a TIN. Told me I had a British Passport so I should pay tax to the UK. Which I do.

[john donson]

On 8/15/2024 at 1:46 AM, ukrules said:

There's plenty of room for 'escape', just make sure you don't stay anywhere for more than about 180 days per year.

 

 

 

so multiple homes in multiple countries, multiple wives,  everybody's a millionaire, right?

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, Scouse123 said:

 

There is tax on every product we buy here including cars, food, hotels, beer, etc we pay road tax, most of us have first class insurance.

 

We pay for Thai members of family to go to university, well, I have.

 

We pay when the mother is sick to go to hospital;,

 

We certainly pay the Police on a regular basis, if you can call them a Police force, they like their money upfront,

 

I pay for hospitals through private insurance, the odd occasion I visit a public hospital, I pay.

 

If foreigners like me hadn't paid plenty, Isaarn wouldn't exist, because the bloody government hardly paid anything and it was neglected forever,

 

So what are you talking about?

 

 

 

 

 

 

You do understand what devil's advocate means, don't you!

[Yumthai]

2 minutes ago, john donson said:

so multiple homes in multiple countries, multiple wives,  everybody's a millionaire, right?

On the lower end someone could spend 179 days a year in Thailand and split the remaining days between Cambodia, Laos and Malaysia not triggering any tax residence. No million is necessary to achieve that.

[Thingamabob]

On 8/15/2024 at 12:21 PM, Presnock said:

Philippines doesn't tax pensions, other SEA countries have various rules and regulations concerning expats just takes a little search and reading to find out if any fit into one's lowest or no tax to be paid.  By ignoring the laws about taxation and seeking ways to avoid ever paying taxes to any country is why these international agreement come  to fruition.  Eventually, all will probably be shut down by changes in tax residency or visa extensions, etc.  My opinion as it seems this is the start here in Thailand anyway and am sure it is going on in other countries too.

As I'm sure you are aware there is a difference between avoidance and evasion.

[thailand49]

Due taxation treaty or laws. 

[Srikcir]

On 8/15/2024 at 9:47 AM, chiang mai said:

advocate.....did you think you could move here to live and not have to contribute directly to the construction and maintenance of roads, airports, public hospitals, the police force, the government, schools and universities?

Do you think resident foreigners don't, albeit not directly in the form of an income tax?

For spending to sustain oneself in Thailand, 7% VAT applies to virtually every expenditure. Unlike foreign tourists, there is no refund. VAT goes into the Thai Treasury as part of the general fund.

[wwest5829]

On 8/15/2024 at 9:47 AM, chiang mai said:

Playing devils advocate.....did you think you could move here to live and not have to contribute directly to the construction and maintenance of roads, airports, public hospitals, the police force, the government, schools and universities?

So, about a million baht a year brought in to Thailand. And then it is all spent here. I am thinking that tax is collected on all sales … including the gas for the car and motorbike, which also bring to mind the registration tax. As a U.S. citizen, I am not going to worry until I have something to worry about. Worse comes to worse? I am free to seek retirement elsewhere, perhaps where I am allowed to join the national healthcare scheme.

[AAArdvark]

On 8/15/2024 at 9:46 AM, Moonlover said:

Yet another rumour monger. Where's your evidence Swissie?

 

Let's have your references.

He simply asked a question. No tumor mongering at all. 

[brianthainess]

36 minutes ago, jesimps said:

The attitude of my local tax office seems to back that up because they refused point blank to issue me a TIN. Told me I had a British Passport so I should pay tax to the UK. Which I do.

I get under the UK tax threshold so I should not pay any tax in Thailand, out of interest, what is the Thai tax threshold ? 

[AAArdvark]

On 8/14/2024 at 9:02 PM, swissie said:

Taxation of foreighners an issue in Thailand. As I gather from different news sources, Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia also tax foreighn income. Only the Philippines do not. True/False?

If true, no escape left.

You aren't getting answers. Philippines definitely does not tax foreigners. I'm not sure about Cambodia but I doubt it, except for people working there. 

[Everyman]

16 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

So, expats pay more VAT that 70 million Thai's.  Really? 

 

Individual expats pay more tax than nearly all individual 70 million Thais 

[Moti24]

I've attached The UK/Thai tax agreement below; typical government jargon, but the required information is there.  The term "Resident" is used, but are expats actually residents of Thailand?  If you can make 100% sense of the agreement, you're a better man than I.  The expression "Up The Creek Without A Paddle" springs to mind.

 

UK-Thailand Double Taxation Convention signed 18 February 1981

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80bddc40f0b623026953eb/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

 

Happy reading.

 

 

[topt]

2 hours ago, Moti24 said:

The term "Resident" is used, but are expats actually residents of Thailand? 

Tax residents - you spend more than a 179 days in a calendar year in Thailand you are officially a tax resident here.

The term "expats"means nothing in this context.

 

Have you read the tax guide? 

 

[ukrules]

3 hours ago, john donson said:

 

so multiple homes in multiple countries, multiple wives,  everybody's a millionaire, right?

 

Two homes, two countries and a 2 week holiday in a third country like Vietnam and you're resident nowhere.

 

No need for two wives, mine comes with me.

 

Rent an apartment in somewhere like Phnom Penh for less than $10k a year

Who wouldn't do this if it would save you hundreds of thousands of dollars in potential taxes?

 

[Nemises]

On 8/16/2024 at 12:47 AM, KhunHeineken said:

what about the 800k or 65k per month for your extension? 

Yet another good reason to use an agent and not leave 800k in some Thai bank account doing FA. 

[chiang mai]

4 hours ago, Srikcir said:

Do you think resident foreigners don't, albeit not directly in the form of an income tax?

For spending to sustain oneself in Thailand, 7% VAT applies to virtually every expenditure. Unlike foreign tourists, there is no refund. VAT goes into the Thai Treasury as part of the general fund.

I said I was playing devils advocate because I wanted to see what people thought and what sort of discussion ensued. I'm not sure what I think about this, everyone pays VAT, it's the same for everyone. Income tax however is based on earnings, however that may be defined so people who earn more should pay more, that's the way it works in most non-communist countries. 

 

Tax revenue from all sources amounts to  only 13% of the annual budget, the rest comes from exports. That 13% comprises (biggest to smallest) VAT, Corporate Income Tax, Inheritance tax and then personal income tax, in that order, the other piddling things such as fuel, car, liquor and tobacco taxes are inconsequential.  Corporate, Inheritance and PIT tax total 1,877 billion baht and foreign expats contribute nothing to those things, they only contribute to VAT which is only 913 billion baht, but so does everyone else. Put another way, foreign residents contributions to the running of the country is so small as to be not measurable, remember, there's 72 million of them and substantially less than a few hundred thousand of us.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1126300/thailand-government-revenue-from-taxes-by-type/

 

[motdaeng]

1 hour ago, ukrules said:

Rent an apartment in somewhere like Phnom Penh for less than $10k a year ...

 

Who wouldn't do this if it would save you hundreds of thousands of dollars in potential taxes

 

of course, you save a few hundred thousand of dollars on taxes ... but suggesting  to rent a cheap appartment in pp for 10k per year ...

do you take yourself seriously?  😕