Can the Asean Now Community Mediate? Your Input is Needed!

[Sam B]

Fellow expats, imagine being dragged into a courtroom battle where only one side is throwing punches. Despite my efforts to keep things civil and avoid a legal showdown, the other party seems determined to escalate every step of the way. I'm stuck in a dispute that's spiraling out of control, and I need your help to steer it back to calmer grounds.

 

Here's the scoop: I hired a solar installation company in Chiang Mai, lured by their European name and the ease of communicating in German. Everything seemed sunny until the installation stretched from a promised week to a grueling two months with many incidents. Let's leave that out here - in the end, the installer didn't even agree to my suggestion, that I waive all costs incurred as a result of all these issues and will pay the outstanding amount in two tranches: half on the day of putting into operation and after a month-long test phase. He obviously seemed to prefer to put me under pressure to pay with a criminal claim instead of subjecting his system to a test phase.

 

This was my first bid to dodge legal chaos (I name it Action 1). But alas, my friendly neighborhood Expat wasn't having it and decided to take the courtroom route over alleged embezzlement!

 

I've been navigating this storm with a series of actions:

Action 2: Paid the remaining balance immediately after receiving the information/threat that he will file criminal and civil charges against me. I made a modest deduction for the missing warranty (another issue which arises), hoping to stave off a court case.

Action 3: After I received the lawsuit against me, I instructed my lawyer to rescheduled the initial court date, buying time to find a resolution.

Action 4: Contacted the installing expat twice via email, explaining the needless criminalization of one expat by another, but was met with silence and a request to stop the emails.

Action 5: We suggested that there should be no more delays, discussions, or negotiations—just one more figure, then proceed to the lawyers and withdraw the claim, only to be told there was "no time"—a weekend hope left dangling.

Action 6: Turned to you, my fellow expats, for fresh ideas.

 

Here's the issue in a nutshell: It's absurd to drag a simple payment disagreement into a criminal court when it clearly belongs in civil court*¹. That's where these kinds of disputes should be sorted out. But no, I'm facing a bizarre embezzlement charge just because I made a deduction over a missing warranty—even though I've paid for everything I actually received. He did not even try to negotiate about the guarantee deduction but decided to criminalize a fellow Expat in Thailand.

 

*1 By the way: According to the lawyer, this kind of legal action is often used against Expats in Thailand. If the complaint is accepted, you have to pay bail and can't leave the country, possibly for up to a year. It's a stressful situation for any Expat and can make some give in even if they are in the right. It's truly tragic when one Expat does this to another.

 

So, life-experience fellows, do you have any ideas for me? Any mediators among you willing to step in? Would you be willing to brainstorm for me and find a way out of this tropical legal storm! Share your thoughts, no critiques, please— I know maybe my actions weren't perfect, but I’m looking ahead.

Thanks for your support!

 

Edited September 7 by Sam B

[CharlieH]

Unhelpful remarks removed.

[gargamon]

Move to Cambodia.

[CharlieH]

Without seeing or knowing the ins and outs of all this, it seems your combatant has done this before as it seems too organised and calculated.

[Sam B]

@CharlieH Important hint—much points to that. Thanks!

 

 

Edited September 7 by Sam B

[novacova]

2 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

Without seeing or knowing the ins and outs of all this, it seems your combatant has done this before as it seems too organised and calculated.

…and with that, you should file racketeering charges/investigation against him.

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, novacova said:

…and with that, you should file racketeering charges/investigation against him.

 

Definitely counterclaim something criminal, eg false advertising or something else you can justify.

[Sam B]

5 minutes ago, novacova said:

…and with that, you should file racketeering charges/investigation against him.

Difficult. He presented himself to us as the company owner and manager, all employees call him boss. But now I've heard from the lawyer that he's not officially one of them. Even though he appears everywhere online as General Manager.

[Sam B]

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Definitely counterclaim something criminal, eg false advertising or something else you can justify.

See below. He cannot be approached because he is not officially part of the company management.

[Tropicalevo]

I suspect that the other party is banking on the fact that they have more money than you to throw at this.

Do you have a legally binding contract?

I have been involved in a number of court cases in my time here in Thailand, and I have found the judges to be pretty fair in every case.

It is not always down to 'the letter of the law'. The spirit of the law does come into play at times.

Only one of the court cases involved money and the judge was pretty reasonable in my favour.

[brianthainess]

2 minutes ago, Sam B said:

Difficult. He presented himself to us as the company owner and manager, all employees call him boss. But now I've heard from the lawyer that he's not officially one of them. Even though he appears everywhere online as General Manager.

What's his Visa status ?? 

[simon43]

Does he have a valid work permit?  'Fight fire with fire'

[rumak]

Most problems here are "won"  by the person/combatant  having the most power , or specifically , powers in the form of contacts / associations .  

If one thinks about it ........ that is pretty much the case everywhere.

 

From what you have written,  he want's nothing to do with working things out with you.

The one thing missing here is WHY that is the case ( from his side) .  Without hearing the other party's reasons none of us can guess the real motives for his action.

 

Does someone here have lots of influence and want to get into someone elses problem?    A very good and costly lawyer might be needed.   OR ..... go it alone if you think they are bluffing you

Edited September 7 by rumak

[Sam B]

3 minutes ago, Tropicalevo said:

I suspect that the other party is banking on the fact that they have more money than you to throw at this.

Do you have a legally binding contract?

I have been involved in a number of court cases in my time here in Thailand, and I have found the judges to be pretty fair in every case.

It is not always down to 'the letter of the law'. The spirit of the law does come into play at times.

Only one of the court cases involved money and the judge was pretty reasonable in my favour.

 

Not really a contract - a quotation with a provision that everything belongs to him if it is not all paid for. He thought it was stupid to make a big contract with all the regulations.

It's very reassuring to hear this with your experiences from a court system with a sound understanding of human nature. Thank you.

[novacova]

4 minutes ago, simon43 said:

Does he have a valid work permit?  'Fight fire with fire'

Go to immigration and inquire if he has a work permit, if he doesn’t have a work permit then tell them he’s pumping you for money for labor rendered. Problem permanently solved.

Edited September 7 by novacova

[Mason45]

8 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Definitely counterclaim something criminal, eg false advertising or something else you can justify.

misrepresentation.

[Sam B]

4 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

What's his Visa status ?? 

I dont know. But he is very careful about all administrative things. He never signs anything himself. I guess everything is clean. But how can you find out?

 

[rumak]

4 minutes ago, simon43 said:

Does he have a valid work permit?  'Fight fire with fire'

 

if no proof of actually working ( photos, etc)  .... then they can just say he helped with

translation  

[scubascuba3]

Seems like court is the only option, bite the bullet and go for it, it's a civil case, not a criminal case

[Kinnock]

Do you have a Thai partner who could make a formal complaint and ideally file a counter criminal co.plaint for fraud or harassment?  Try to remove the foreigner element.

 

There's also the option of hiring one of the Thai 'celebrity lawyers'.  They are experts at arranging press conferences and embarrassing businesses into settling a case quietly to avoid all the negative publicity.

[Sam B]

5 minutes ago, simon43 said:

Does he have a valid work permit?  'Fight fire with fire'

He is careful. I'm sure he has one. The question is whether it's the right one. Why is he hiding the fact that he's the boss?

 

[rumak]

4 minutes ago, Sam B said:

I dont know. But he is very careful about all administrative things. He never signs anything himself. I guess everything is clean. But how can you find out?

 

aha .......... and i believe you said you have no proof that he is part of that company ?    ( btw :  work permits are NOT issued or monitored  by immigration)

Edited September 7 by rumak

[novacova]

1 minute ago, Sam B said:

I dont know. But he is very careful about all administrative things. He never signs anything himself. I guess everything is clean. But how can you find out?

 

Go talk to him about the matter and get him on a recording. Go get some evidence 

[Kinnock]

2 minutes ago, Sam B said:

I dont know. But he is very careful about all administrative things. He never signs anything himself. I guess everything is clean. But how can you find out?

 

Even if doesn't sign anything and avoids a formal job title, he's clearly working in Thailand.  You ideally need to make a friend in the Labour Department.

[Sam B]

9 minutes ago, rumak said:

Most problems here are "won"  by the person/combatant  having the most power , or specifically , powers in the form of contacts / associations .  

If one thinks about it ........ that is pretty much the case everywhere.

 

From what you have written,  he want's nothing to do with working things out with you.

The one thing missing here is WHY that is the case ( from his side) .  Without hearing the other party's reasons none of us can guess the real motives for his action.

 

Does someone here have lots of influence and want to get into someone elses problem?    A very good and costly lawyer might be the only option 

I can understand your reasoning.  
It's simply a question of whether you want to take the risk of the case going to court. Because as soon as that happens, long before the court ruling, you have to pay bail and are no longer allowed to leave the country.

 

[SingAPorn]

I have noticed in Thailand very often, bad service and cheating involves foreigners and westerners living here and having companies. For instance those in the real estate business who will be all honey and nice on selling and once you purchase, they just ignore when the issues show up in the house or condo. An acquaintance who bought on leasehold a pool villa in a swanky so-called reputed developpment in Hua Hin, Hin Lek Fai had many issues with the villa. The farang developper just refused to admit their mistakes and wanted money to correct the badly finished work. Just one exemple of how things can work here. At the end of the day, one may consider to invest in another country as foreigners here seem to have absolutely no rights in a court IMHO. I could be mistaken but definately one needs to think 4 times before buying anything here.

[Sam B]

4 minutes ago, rumak said:

aha .......... and i believe you said you have no proof that he is part of that company ?

He told me that he is the company owner and online that he is general manager. My lawyer has now told me that he is officially none of these things.

 

[rumak]

Just now, Sam B said:

I can understand your reasoning.  
It's simply a question of whether you want to take the risk of the case going to court. Because as soon as that happens, long before the court ruling, you have to pay bail and are no longer allowed to leave the country.

 

 

people,  maybe some lawyer,  are telling you all kinds of things.    If indeed someone wants to help you ............  they would need to see the ACTION being taken against you, and for sure what type of suit ( criminal,  civil , ??)  .   And then make inquiries from there directly at the court involved .   THIS  is where even a good and intelligent THAI   friend can help  ( not usually member of wifes family ... but maybe)

[CharlieH]

He is not officially part of the company Management ?

 

So what exactly is his position and what role has "the company" played in this ?

[novacova]

5 minutes ago, Sam B said:

He told me that he is the company owner and online that he is general manager. My lawyer has now told me that he is officially none of these things.

 

If he is none of those things then he is either working without a permit or outside of the bounds of a permit. If it were me, I’d relentlessly go after this cull 

Edited September 7 by novacova