Don’t kill the golden goose! Tax reforms may drive away expats

[whiteman]

As I said it looks like away for them to increase the amount one needs to live here for your retirement visa after they tax the hell out of you.

[whiteman]

you can now have a nice day but my point is still valid

[mania]

On 9/10/2024 at 3:03 PM, NedR69 said:

Swift transfer may be the best option.  Plan now, if you have 800k or more to move out.

 

 Yes swift is fast & easy & not too pricey.

As long as your moving less than 50k USD at a time no questions asked or proof of origin required.

When I moved I just said repatriating

I used Bangkok Bank

 

[CharlesHolzhauer]

1 hour ago, Badrabbit said:

I'm over 65 but not married, my State Pension is approx 8000 GBP 

£8000 @ 44 = THB352000
This small spreadsheet to compute taxes maybe helpful.
https://aseannow.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=963918&key=3d1fbcad20096f3b29832d1f9cb6f5bd

 

Credit to: 'pauku1'

<https://aseannow.com/topic/1318120-revenue-department-contact-reports/#comment-18647010>

[BE88]

 

https://articles.smartasset.com/best-states-to-retire/ux/index.html?utm_source=smartasset&utm_campaign=sma__falc_relatedposts_retire&utm_content=beststates_grey

 

Why should Americans come to Thailand and pay taxes on the  pension when they don't pay them at home?

 

 

Edited Thursday at 04:08 AM by BE88

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, whiteman said:

Yet the pension allowance is 800k per year which currently the Thai government thinks is what you need to live here so tax will have to be paid on that 800 - 500 balance 300K TAXABLE

No, 800K in a bank account. this doesn't mean you have to spend it. You could have the same money in the bank for decades. 

Tax is only levied on money earned in a certain year. 

[Sig]

19 hours ago, Presnock said:

Never considered the markets either, just too ignorant of all the ins and outs.  I had a great job, well paid and now have a great retirement income.  Can provide easily for my family and if I croak sooner then they will still receive annuity without any problems.  I do wish everyone luck in whatever they decide what they want to do except for those who just want to have some government give them free bennies without them having to pay anything.

Good to hear you were able to provide well for your family. It's good to know that you don't know something and do well in what you do know. Too many can't realize their own ability/knowledge and end up floundering.
No idea why a couple of people responded with "confused" emojis on your comment. Maybe they are among those who are the leeches of society mooching those free bennies you mentioned.

[NativeBob]

Off-topic:

Well, you are bringing money into Thailand to spend in Thailand. Good for Thailand, right? Why does the Thai govt. want to skim the money you are going to spend in Thailand? 

Me "may luchak" seriously. 

Thai companies are [suppose] paying their income and VAT taxes from the money they got from you, aren't they?

Like you come to Dept. Store and there's fat guy at the doors asking you to pay "income to the Store" fee. 

Oy, maybe they don't get those taxes from thais at all? Like that noodle shop owner at China Town who owns nice house [rather castle] at Kamphen Phet but pays only 7.000/month ?

[MarkBR]

2 hours ago, Raindancer said:

Then your allowances would be.

 

Over 65>                             190k

Personal Allowance            60k

First 150k tax free allowance.

Up to          100k allowance offset against pension income 

 

Total allowance: 500k

 

So at £8000 per annum @ 44 baht to the £ = 352k

 

So, you are still under your total allowances.

 

Hope that reassures you.🙏🏻

Looks good, although I am not sure I will reach any of the numbers here. 🙂  Should be relatively unaffected apart from annoying paperwork.

[Thaindrew]

3 hours ago, Raindancer said:

I wouldn't worry too unnecessarily. 

 

If you are married over 65, you will have allowances of 560k, which includes the first 150k, ( non taxable).

 

As the max UK state pension is currently £220 per week (£11660) per annum, equates to 513k thai baht @ 44 baht to the £, you will be OK.

 

Even £ 11660 (@ 46 baht = 536k pa to the pound) is still under the 560k per annum allowances. 

 

thats true and very good level of allowance for may retirees, however your figure does assume your wife is not working or has no obligation to file a tax return and so use her own allowance rather than allocate it to you. Then there may be a small tax bill based just on the UK state pension.

[Thaindrew]

1 hour ago, Raindancer said:

Simple....don't use the 65k method.

 

If you bring in 800k, show it as savings, which are exempt.

and if you use an agent who puts that 800k into you account for the visa application, what then? Thailand considers all deposits as potential income .....

[Patong2021]

On 9/10/2024 at 7:40 PM, WoodyKenny said:

Oh it's on.. They just killed their future to Build and Buy housing. Gotta be more than 500 homes on the market for sale in Hua Hin area alone.  And to you that feel we don't pay our fair share. In 2022 alone Thailand Tourist brought in 1.2 TRILLION Thai Baht to the GDP.  Let's say you now as we don't contribute. I'm sure the Philippines or Vietnam would love that cash!   With a Failed system you get Greed...

 

Tourism is very different than foreign residency. Tourists typically visit for less than 3 weeks. Tourists will not be taxed on their worldwide income. 

 

[jwest10]

Right just make this very clear and at the moment only funds transferred in 2024 is likely to be taxed if and only after the various allowances exceeds 560K maximum and most of us  I believe are below these and money from savings  from abroad are exempt

Also been told yet again by my local Revenue office not to do anything  as yet and yes one if ever these forms come out use our pink cards and the same number of digits.
Yes, straight from the horses mouth and have been around and seen high officials and they have confirmed this!!

[Raindancer]

12 minutes ago, Thaindrew said:

 

thats true and very good level of allowance for may retirees, however your figure does assume your wife is not working or has no obligation to file a tax return and so use her own allowance rather than allocate it to you. Then there may be a small tax bill based just on the UK state pension.

If he was married, and his wife was not working, they could file jointly and claim her 60l pa as well.

 

Thus taking the total allowances to 560k per year.

 

As the maximum UK state pension is £220 per week, therefore £11440 per annum and at 44 baht to the £ = 503k, there would be no tax liability.

 

[Raindancer]

13 minutes ago, Thaindrew said:

and if you use an agent who puts that 800k into you account for the visa application, what then? Thailand considers all deposits as potential income .....

Who mentioned agents and the use of 800k from them.

[ThiAmo]

With the "Sword of Damocles" of Global Taxation in mind, the most pressing question I ask myself is however this: Will the TRD Order No. Por. 162/2566 of November 20, 2023 be implemented at least in 2024, or could it be declared invalid without further justification? What is such a departmental order legally worth? Of course, the proposed introduction of Global Taxation would take some time, but what happens in the meantime? Are you still counting on above Order that Accrued Foreign income/assets as of December 31, 2023 won't be taken into consideration by TRD if transferred to Thailand from 2024 onwards? Thank you.

[Celsius]

2 hours ago, Raindancer said:

No problem:

Basically as an unmarried 65 year old, you have Thai income tax allowances of 500000 Thai baht per year,BEFORE you pay  or are liable for any income tax here in Thailand.

 

  Your £8000 UK pension equates to 352000 thai baht income per year.

 

Therefore you have no Thai income tax liability to pay.

 

Hope that explains it for you.

 

The question is does he have to file a tax return?

 

[Raindancer]

1 minute ago, Celsius said:

 

The question is does he have to file a tax return?

 

That is the question we are all asking.  We will have to wait and see🙏🏻

[anrcaccount]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

2 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Non B Visa holders with work permits are not required to show Tax Clearance Certificates to Immigration when departing Thailand.

 

They are required to show Tax return on application for extensions. 

 

Tax Clearance certificates are not operational in Thailand anymore. 

 

Expand  

 

If you think that's wrong, provide proof from the TRD that it is.

 

Section 4 of the TRD Code applies:

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37695.html

 

 

I have spoken to multiple Non B holders with work permits, none have ever been required to produce a tax clearance certificate when leaving Thailand. If anyone on a Non B working was been asked for this, surely it would have come up as a topic for discussion in these threads or sometime in the last few years, and agents would also know about it. 

 

As I said, tax clearance certificates are not operational in Thailand today. That's common knowledge.

 

So while the law is on the books ( I didn't say that was wrong, and yes you provided  the source), you stating that:

 

"Each would need to obtain a Tax Clearance Certificate from TRD, before leaving the country."

 

is not correct.  IMO, that type of statement builds unnecessary fear and concern amongst readers.  

 

 

[chiang mai]

11 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

 

I have spoken to multiple Non B holders with work permits, none have ever been required to produce a tax clearance certificate when leaving Thailand. If anyone on a Non B working was been asked for this, surely it would have come up as a topic for discussion in these threads or sometime in the last few years, and agents would also know about it. 

 

As I said, tax clearance certificates are not operational in Thailand today. That's common knowledge.

 

So while the law is on the books ( I didn't say that was wrong, and yes you provided  the source), you stating that:

 

"Each would need to obtain a Tax Clearance Certificate from TRD, before leaving the country."

 

is not correct.  IMO, that type of statement builds unnecessary fear and concern amongst readers.  

 

 

Why are they not operational, is it because the TRD says so or does immi ignore them? And are they not operational for all visa classes, in all provinces? Since TRD has not changed the Tax Code to say they are no longer operational, does that mean they could be operational tomorrow and if so, will they let us know before hand? And if we ask TRD if they are required, how will they answer?

 

You have jumped from the TRD Code saying they are required, to them mot being required by anyone here, simply because you haven't seen it reported that they are required and you think my language is unsafe!

Edited Thursday at 05:26 AM by chiang mai

[motdaeng]

7 minutes ago, Celsius said:

The question is does he have to file a tax return?

 

the rule/law states the following:

 

"In Thailand, you need to file taxes if you live in the Kingdom for 180 days or more, or if the money was for work conducted in Thailand and your assessable income is over 120,000 THB as an individual or 220,000 THB as a joint filing married couple. The tax year is from January to December, and you usually have until the end of March the next year to file your taxes."

 

however, if i don't have to pay tax due to the allowance and the TDA, i personally wouldn't file a tax return either ... except if required by immigration or other authorities.

[Ben Zioner]

2 hours ago, whiteman said:

I'm over 65 but not married, my State Pension is approx 8000 GBP 

Then your allowances would be.

 

Over 65>                             190k

Personal Allowance            60k

First 150k tax free allowance.

Up to          100k allowance offset against pension income 

 

Total allowance: 500k

 

So at £8000 per annum @ 44 baht to the £ = 352k

 

So, you are still under your total all

 

Yet the pension allowance is 800k per year which currently the Thai government thinks is what you need to live here so tax will have to be paid on that 800 - 500 balance 300K TAXABLE

At 5%, that would be 15000 a year so, if you are right, no even worth  hiring of of those crooks calling themselves agents.

[NoDisplayName]

3 hours ago, newnative said:

     Wish that were true regarding the good 'ol US of A.  No tax expert but I do know I have been paying federal tax for the last 50 years on income that has never reached $60,000.   My 2023 tax owed was around $1500.

 

It CAN be true, depending on your circumstances.  It is for me, using IRS rules to my benefit.  I sell stocks/funds to immediately repurchase, resetting the cost basis, taking the capital gains NOW (at 0% tax) so as not to sell later at potentially higher rate.  Tax-free overseas income will lower the 0% bracket, and I believe SocSec payments will as well.  If I reach taxable limit, I can sell some losses to offset gains.

 

Single filer in 2024 gets a standard deduction of $14,600.  If not earning salary, the entire first two tax brackets are available as 0% tax on long term capital gains, in 2024 that's $47,150.

 

Tax free in 2024 = $61,750 for single filer.  (Married gets a higher standard deduction.)  At current rates, that would be  2,081,949.98 baht tax free.

 

US IRS standard deduction and 0% tax bracket on LTCG is not recognized by Thailand, so this is all assessable and taxable as ordinary income under Thailand's potential global taxation scheme.

 

Capital gains on stock/bond/fund sales is not taxed in Thailand, for SET registered assets, thus NO capital loss can be used to offset tax.  If you used any capital losses to offset your gains to reduce your US taxes, add those back in.  They are disallowed.

 

The standard deduction for a single filer under 65 is 60,000 baht. 

 

Now go figure your tax bill on 2 million baht. 

Don't forget to add tax for your offsetting LTCL!!!!

 

Just two years of Thai global tax ($10,000 annual) will pay for outright purchase of a decent condo in Vietnam or Cambodia or Philippines.

 

 

Edited Thursday at 05:33 AM by NoDisplayName

[Ben Zioner]

13 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

however, if i don't have to pay tax due to the allowance and the TDA, i personally wouldn't file a tax return either ... except if required by immigration or other authorities.

Agreed, but I suggest to my fellow LTR holders to be extremely cautious there, as they might look for the slightest reason to negate our privileges. I base this on warnings posted on BOI's website.

 

"Section 7 In the case that a foreigner has applied tax reduction or exemption under this Royal Decree, and later does not comply with rules prescribed in Section 3, Section 4, Section 5, and Section 6 in any tax year, benefits will be suspended in that tax year."

Edited Thursday at 05:37 AM by Ben Zioner

[newnative]

28 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

It CAN be true, depending on your circumstances.  It is for me, using IRS rules to my benefit.  I sell stocks/funds to immediately repurchase, resetting the cost basis, taking the capital gains NOW (at 0% tax) so as not to sell later at potentially higher rate.  Tax-free overseas income will lower the 0% bracket, and I believe SocSec payments will as well.  If I reach taxable limit, I can sell some losses to offset gains.

 

Single filer in 2024 gets a standard deduction of $14,600.  If not earning salary, the entire first two tax brackets are available as 0% tax on long term capital gains, in 2024 that's $47,150.

 

Tax free in 2024 = $61,750 for single filer.  (Married gets a higher standard deduction.)  At current rates, that would be  2,081,949.98 baht tax free.

 

US IRS standard deduction and 0% tax bracket on LTCG is not recognized by Thailand, so this is all assessable and taxable as ordinary income under Thailand's potential global taxation scheme.

 

Capital gains on stock/bond/fund sales is not taxed in Thailand, for SET registered assets, thus NO capital loss can be used to offset tax.  If you used any capital losses to offset your gains to reduce your US taxes, add those back in.  They are disallowed.

 

The standard deduction for a single filer under 65 is 60,000 baht. 

 

Now go figure your tax bill on 2 million baht. 

Don't forget to add tax for your offsetting LTCL!!!!

 

Just two years of Thai global tax ($10,000 annual) will pay for outright purchase of a decent condo in Vietnam or Cambodia or Philippines.

 

 

      Thanks for your interesting post.  I'm curious regarding the $61,750 tax-free figure you mentioned, which I am not familiar with.  Is that for higher income levels?  (Which I am also not familiar with, more's the pity!)

      In 2023, I had Social Security, Virginia state pension, and dividend income for a total of around $50,000 in income for the year.  I ran my taxes with both Turbo Tax and Tax Act on-line tax preparers and they both came up with around $1,500 in federal tax still owed, on top of what I had already paid.  To add insult to injury, I had to also pay a small penalty as I didn't have enough tax taken out during the year, which I have, hopefully, remedied for 2024.

[DrPhibes]

14 minutes ago, newnative said:

      Thanks for your interesting post.  I'm curious regarding the $61,750 tax-free figure you mentioned, which I am not familiar with.  Is that for higher income levels?  (Which I am also not familiar with, more's the pity!)

      In 2023, I had Social Security, Virginia state pension, and dividend income for a total of around $50,000 in income for the year.  I ran my taxes with both Turbo Tax and Tax Act on-line tax preparers and they both came up with around $1,500 in federal tax still owed, on top of what I had already paid.  To add insult to injury, I had to also pay a small penalty as I didn't have enough tax taken out during the year, which I have, hopefully, remedied for 2024.

He is focusing on Capital Gains income which have different rules on when tax obligation starts to be generated.  If you don't have much ordinary income but a good chunk of capital gains, you can hit a fairly high amount of income before tax starts to show up. 

[newnative]

2 minutes ago, DrPhibes said:

He is focusing on Capital Gains income which have different rules on when tax obligation starts to be generated.  If you don't have much ordinary income but a good chunk of capital gains, you can hit a fairly high amount of income before tax starts to show up. 

Thanks!

[redwood1]

Ok lets take just one country the USA......Look how the number of tax laws a rules have exploded over the last 100 years.....Now take just about any country on Earth a expat might be from who lives in Thailand.....And I bet their countries tax laws have increased similar to this chart....

 

Now throw in 60 or so DTAs that are all different into the mix...

 

Now throw in a bunch of Thai tax laws that are often vaguely written and open to various interpretations...

 

Now throw in some vague threat of world wide taxation...

 

Now throw in many Thai officials  who speak any where from modest English to no English at all and very very very few would be able to speak or have a full understand  of international Tax law......And for dozens and dozens of other languages forget it......

 

Now throw in a bureaucracy who cant even mange to get it together to tax their own people....

 

 

And what do you have after this mix.......One giant Swamp as far as the eyes can see....LOL 

 

 

 

 

 

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, anrcaccount said:

 

 

I have spoken to multiple Non B holders with work permits, none have ever been required to produce a tax clearance certificate when leaving Thailand. If anyone on a Non B working was been asked for this, surely it would have come up as a topic for discussion in these threads or sometime in the last few years, and agents would also know about it. 

 

As I said, tax clearance certificates are not operational in Thailand today. That's common knowledge.

 

So while the law is on the books ( I didn't say that was wrong, and yes you provided  the source), you stating that:

 

"Each would need to obtain a Tax Clearance Certificate from TRD, before leaving the country."

 

is not correct.  IMO, that type of statement builds unnecessary fear and concern amongst readers.  

 

 

A more measured response, now that I am home once again:

 

D’man said that only a handful of work permit holders need to prove their taxes before leaving the country, the UN report says there are 170,000 foreign skilled and professional people here which is considerably more than just a handful.

 

Anecdotal reports from members have said that all work permit holders must settle their taxes before they leave, the TRD Code supports this in Section 4.

 

The TRD Code says the vehicle for proving taxes are current is the Tax Clearance Certificate (TCC). You don’t believe the TCC is operational, because you haven’t seen reports from anyone on the forum about this. If AN has 5,000 active members and half of them hold work permits, which is extremely generous but unlikely, your evidence is having not seen an AN report from any of the 1.5% of foreign work permit holders that confirms or denies this.

 

You are critical of my language and accuse me of scaring members when I said that all 170,000 will need to obtain a TCC. Whether or not that settlement is done by showing a tax return or obtaining a TCC seems almost irrelevant since that only indicates the means, not the need or the requriement.

 

I think you are the one who is scaring members by claiming statements to be false but without proof and downplaying the facts. I think you are clutching at straws by trying to find any means to attack any of my posts or my credibility, because your fantasy about my identity has been exposed.

[Ralf001]

6 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

A more measured response, now that I am home once again:

 

D’man said that only a handful of work permit holders need to prove their taxes before leaving the country, the UN report says there are 170,000 foreign skilled and professional people here which is considerably more than just a handful.

 

Anecdotal reports from members have said that all work permit holders must settle their taxes before they leave, the TRD Code supports this in Section 4.

 

The TRD Code says the vehicle for proving taxes are current is the Tax Clearance Certificate (TCC). You don’t believe the TCC is operational, because you haven’t seen reports from anyone on the forum about this. If AN has 5,000 active members and half of them hold work permits, which is extremely generous but unlikely, your evidence is having not seen an AN report from any of the 1.5% of foreign work permit holders that confirms or denies this.

 

You are critical of my language and accuse me of scaring members when I said that all 170,000 will need to obtain a TCC. Whether or not that settlement is done by showing a tax return or obtaining a TCC seems almost irrelevant since that only indicates the means, not the need or the requriement.

 

I think you are the one who is scaring members by claiming statements to be false but without proof and downplaying the facts. I think you are clutching at straws by trying to find any means to attack any of my posts or my credibility, because your fantasy about my identity has been exposed.

 

When did this come into effect ?