Thailand issues four major announcements on new visa measures

[kwilco]

6 hours ago, chipperPDU said:

Extended Visa-Free Period does not exist, it's an extended visa exempt period.

the difference being?

[thaibreaker]

22 minutes ago, LOG54 said:

I 100% agree with you... There is still an issue at least for french... In Thailand  if the law goes through, tax filing and payment on 31st march 25..BUT for 24, in France tax filing in may 25 and amount to pay received end of August 25.. so I assume we would have to pay full amount in Thailand, then ask for refund of the amount payed in France to Thai RD and following year, ask the french tax department to deduct from your tax the amount paid in Thailand, no ?

I don't see how to pay partially in Thailand if I don't have the amount to pay in France..

Have a good day

Yes, that is how it works in my country, Norway.

Taxes are due in Thailand in the spring the following year, and must be paid first, in order to be reimbursed in due process.

Or you might have this in order from your country already if you have registered migration, so you might not pay tax there in the first place. Each country has their own rules on that, I guess.

Edited Monday at 07:24 AM by thaibreaker

[LOG54]

4 minutes ago, thaibreaker said:

Yes, that is how it works in my country, Norway. Taxes are due in Thailand in the spring the following year, and must be paid first, in order to be reimbursed in due process.

Or you might have this in order from your country already if you have registered migration, so you might not pay tax there in the first place. Each country has their own rules on that, I guess.

Thank you.. of course France charges you as an expat on all your incomes..Thai tax will be higher for us and other issue is in March we still don't have the previous year tax which you get only in August..

Have a good day

[koolkarl]

6 hours ago, hotchilli said:

How can a country say it's going to tax someone on income generated in another country and not transferred to the host country.

Antone thinking of staying or investing in that country would go elsewhere.

Dream if you like. It will happen and is the essence of CRS.

[lemonjelly]

Seeing ppl only being allowed 2x visa exempt by land, even though initial sources stated “as many as you want”, which I was skeptical of anyway

[daveAustin]

#5 shaft existing long term traditional visa holders, the people that put untold wealth into the country. 

[tomacht8]

There are still so many problems to solve before Thailand's wet tax revenue dreams come true. In all DTAs, the basic principle is,  that the country where the income arose is first entitled to the tax.

 

In Thailand you have to submit your tax return for 2024 no later than at 31 March 2025. In my home country I have to submit my tax return for 2024 by 31 December 2025 at the latest.

 

For example, anyone who has income from renting and leasing abroad usually cannot technically declare their tax income to Thailand early as in March 31st.

Edited Monday at 09:12 AM by tomacht8

[James9999]

Under the DTV what does "and those interested in Thai cultural activities. " mean. I have an interest in Thai culture so can I apply for a DTV. And not the Thai culture that some of you are thinking about.

[jojothai]

6 hours ago, LOG54 said:

Fortunately they apparently didn't think about it but a very simple way for them would be based on immigration rules where they assume you need 65.000 bahts per month to live here..so 800.000 bahts per year ..they tax on 800.000 bahts whatever they decide 5, 10 or 15%.. quick and simple.. they inform you have to go to RD and pay before 31st of march each year and join your TCC when applying for visa extension.. At least we would spare accountant/tax specialist fees..

They could say this is the minimum to pay.. but you should inform if you enter more and spend more... If people rent a house/condo for 30, 40 or 50.000 per month or more, they would assume you definitely are above 65.000 per month.. Then if you don't inform or lie.. penalties/criminal case for tax evasion/avoidance etc..

When elderly, it is difficult to be 6 months somewhere then fly to another place.. pay for 2 places rents or purchase (unless you wish to live with only one luggage of personal items) Then you have the flights bills, car renting in at least one of both places etc..

This would reach even more expensive than paying taxes

... and people who have a Thai family, kids at school cannot do that

Have a good day 

Yes, this is a problem for those expats with monthly income being used for the visa.
In theory the monthly income remitted should already be subject to tax assessment depending on the DTA's applicable,
but I do not see evidence to show that this is being pursued yet.
The other rule is that you have the 800,000 in the bank.
For those who already have a large amount invested here in Thailand, then it may not be such a problem because the money is already here.
For instance, If you have a condo worth a lot, you could sell and then rent a place. Then you could have money in the bank that will provide the 800,000 per annum.

Thinking outside the box, If you have good savings outside and plan to live long term resident here, maybe its not a bad idea to buy a condo and transfer money in for that purpose, if its from savings and not income. If its been transmitted for a property purchase, I do not see how they can class it as income.
Then later you sell to use for living in rented accommodation here.

However, this is unlikely to be the case for many retirees living on their pension income. Unfortunately, they may be the hardest hit by this change if implemented.
 

[jojothai]

13 minutes ago, jojothai said:

Yes, this is a problem for those expats with monthly income being used for the visa.
In theory the monthly income remitted should already be subject to tax assessment depending on the DTA's applicable,
but I do not see evidence to show that this is being pursued yet.
The other rule is that you have the 800,000 in the bank.
For those who already have a large amount invested here in Thailand, then it may not be such a problem because the money is already here.
For instance, If you have a condo worth a lot, you could sell and then rent a place. Then you could have money in the bank that will provide the 800,000 per annum.

Thinking outside the box, If you have good savings outside and plan to live long term resident here, maybe its not a bad idea to buy a condo and transfer money in for that purpose, if its from savings and not income. If its been transmitted for a property purchase, I do not see how they can class it as income.
Then later you sell to use for living in rented accommodation here.

However, this is unlikely to be the case for many retirees living on their pension income. Unfortunately, they may be the hardest hit by this change if implemented.
 

Gifting money to the wife (if married) is also an option, but from discussions online and what I have read I am still not sure if it is tax exempt.
I have to do more research

[Chadnik]

14 hours ago, Kerryd said:

I really can't see Revenue Clerks in Thailand trying to check bank accounts of foreigners in every country that's a part of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) that developed the "Standard for Automatic Exchange of Financial Account Information" (or "Common Reporting Standard" for short).

Thailand isn't a member of the OECD yet (in progress as of mid-2024) and though they are a member of the Global Forum on Transparency and Exchange of Information for Tax Purposes, they haven't signed on to the Common Reporting Standard so by rights they can't check foreign bank balances of people who are "tax resident" in Thailand.

And then there's going to be the confusion (and constant arguments) about which income is "taxable" and which isn't and how they are going to deal with non-pension income that's already taxed in your home country (and interpreting the clauses of the different tax treaties between each country which are not only going to be different in languages but in the interpretation of terms and conditions).

And right now, doing a tax return is "voluntary" and as far as I know, they don't have any way to verify who has or hasn't done a Return.

Immigration and Revenue are two different departments and I doubt Immigration wants to start doing Revenue's job for them.
Imagine if you are on a "year long" Visa or Extension and you "go home" or visit another country for a week and when you come back to Thailand (via airport or border crossing) and they want to see your tax returns before they'll let you back into the country.

And imagine the line-ups at Immigration when you go to do an Extension or 90 day Report or any other business and they want to see your tax returns first.

But remember, this isn't about the couple thousand "western expats" living here on their pensions or about a couple thousand "digital nomads" making miniscule income from the occasional "best 10 movies that never won an Oscar" or "Top 10 worst movies to win an Oscar" lists they make up once in awhile.

China is a member of the OECD and has signed onto the Common Reporting Standard.

And you can bet there are going to be a lot more Chinese "workers" and "expats" in Thailand soon than all the "Western expats" combined.

Whenever Thailand changes something that affects foreigners, like Visa rules, condo ownership rules or tax rules, know that they are NOT thinking about the tiny percentage of "western" foreigners. 

They ARE thinking about the masses of Chinese workers and expats and businesses. That is the driving force behind these changes.

And for people who only have pension income and there's a tax treaty between those countries that covers that income - it won't be an issue anyways.

But I suspect there's going to be a lot of issues and a lot of changes in how they handle this over the next couple of years.

 

Thanks for the well thought out post

 

All they need to do is filter through immigration. If you're on a visa extension you front up with a tax return and that's pre-checked before you visit the immigration officer in the larger offices. Simples

[jacob29]

10 hours ago, Rolo89 said:

My question is if they decide you owe a lot of backdated tax can they only enforce this in their country? If so what's to stop people skipping when they're presented with a large bill and if they never go back to Thailand or if they don't declare WW income for a few years then leave the country? 

I'm reasonably sure it would be similar to bad debts, so you won't get extradited (or otherwise have it enforced abroad) if that's what you're asking, you will only have problems on return. I don't think tax debt ever expires like bad debts can though.

9 hours ago, nickmondo said:

Thailand CANNOT tax worldwide income.  It is not possible.  The sooner people stop spreading this nonsense the better

Vietnam and Indonesia tax worldwide income, and it's the norm for most countries. So what is going to make it impossible for Thailand?

Edited Monday at 02:03 PM by jacob29

[zmisha]

The overall trend is to relax visa requirements. This is good. I suppose that the main driver for it is the worldwide problem of depopulation. So I expect that visa requirements will continue to relax. And we will see such news every several months.

[JimTripper]

Keep people moving around and they don't settle in. It also costs them more to keep moving around. That's the real message under it all. They don't want people living locally on a local budget, they want them in hotels, living like tourists always moving around.

Edited Monday at 02:43 PM by JimTripper

[Jack1988]

18 hours ago, webfact said:

2. Extended Visa-Free Period: Visitors from 93 nationalities now enjoy an extended visa-free stay from 30 to 60 days, encouraging longer tourist and short-term business visits.

What does it mean? That you can go to the immigration and extend the current 60 days visa exemption for another 60 days? Or I guess wrong?

[geisha]

12 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

How could Thailand accurately know how much 'world wide' income a foreigner receives?

 

Could ask to see bank accounts but perhaps easy for anybody to conceal one (or several) bank accounts. And perhaps another person (Thai or foreigner) is holding the funds?

True, and if it’s worth it off-shore banking. I know a lot of people doing this who don’t even own the car they drive, let alone the yacht, Villa etc. Plenty countries to choose from and not a name in sight.

[Jack1988]

I will not be taxed anyway as I will leave the country before 180 days. Probably my next country is going to be Vietnam

[thjames007]

18 hours ago, Aviatorhi said:

One of the selling points of the "Wealthy Global Citizen" DTV is 0% tax on overseas income.

i think you mixing up Visas   the GWP is under the LTR not DTV.

[stat]

18 hours ago, Aviatorhi said:

One of the selling points of the "Wealthy Global Citizen" DTV is 0% tax on overseas income.

There is only an LTR wealthy Global citizen not a DTV IMHO.

[ericbj]

17 hours ago, hotchilli said:

How can a country say it's going to tax someone on income generated in another country and not transferred to the host country.

Antone thinking of staying or investing in that country would go elsewhere.

 

France taxes world-wide income.  And plenty of British people live in France (maybe somewhat diminished since Brexit).

 

You were expected to declare your foreign income.  And I did so from the moment when it became known that France would be receiving the details wanted directly from foreign banks; since failure to do so would involve heavy penalties.

 

One British bank accidentally (?) sent details of its French-resident customers' Channel Island international accounts to the French tax authorities.  Which cost those customers very dearly.

[soi3eddie]

19 hours ago, riverhigh said:

Always the gimmicky visas, never the visa that the foreigner wants. In light of the new tax proposals there should be permanent residence for retirees. Always wanting the golden egg but not the golden goose that lays the egg!

 

How many here would be happy to pay Thai taxes at Thai rates, on global income, so long as they received same treatment as Thais? Land ownership, access to government hospitals on same terms as Thais, access to National Parks same as a Thai. No double pricing. Permanent residency with no annual visa extension or 90 day reporting etc. (no issue with not attaining Thai citizenship). Fair is fair right? Percentage of foreigners paying Thai tax would likely be greater than Thai citizens paying Thai tax.

 

[Johno57]

23 hours ago, hotchilli said:

The world wide income tax will never happen.

It is happening now!! And will be in place next year...

 

[Johno57]

8 hours ago, jojothai said:

Yes, this is a problem for those expats with monthly income being used for the visa.
In theory the monthly income remitted should already be subject to tax assessment depending on the DTA's applicable,
but I do not see evidence to show that this is being pursued yet.
The other rule is that you have the 800,000 in the bank.
For those who already have a large amount invested here in Thailand, then it may not be such a problem because the money is already here.
For instance, If you have a condo worth a lot, you could sell and then rent a place. Then you could have money in the bank that will provide the 800,000 per annum.

Thinking outside the box, If you have good savings outside and plan to live long term resident here, maybe its not a bad idea to buy a condo and transfer money in for that purpose, if its from savings and not income. If its been transmitted for a property purchase, I do not see how they can class it as income.
Then later you sell to use for living in rented accommodation here.

However, this is unlikely to be the case for many retirees living on their pension income. Unfortunately, they may be the hardest hit by this change if implemented.

If you rent out your condo you have to pay tax on the rental income or get charged double tax for avoidance..
 

 

[Patong2021]

14 hours ago, daveAustin said:

#5 shaft existing long term traditional visa holders, the people that put untold wealth into the country. 

 

What is the untold wealth?

 

[Rolo89]

9 hours ago, jacob29 said:

Vietnam and Indonesia tax worldwide income, and it's the norm for most countries. So what is going to make it impossible for Thailand?

The vast majority of countries do so it's clearly not impossible for Thailand.

 

They can't change the law quick enough to start it from 2025. But it's very possible and likely it will be law from 2026. 

 

 

[shdmn]

I am confused by this thread.  The OP just lists all the visa changes that were announced a few months ago.  Is there any new info here or is this just a rehash?

[CANSIAM]

23 hours ago, whitfield said:

I went to Immigration the other day and they asked why I only kept 400,000 in my account.  I told them that we don't want to bring in more money than we need because they are going to tax us.  The girl looked at ,e with eyebrows raised and said, "How?"  She had no clue.  If it ever did happen that Immigration needed to sign off a tax return or similar, you can bet your life that the only thing that would change would be the "Agent's Fee".

Mentioned the same thing ( transfering too much money from abroad and staying here over 180 days ) to a bank manager at SCB recently, eyebrows raised, smiled,  had no idea what I was talking about.......

[Karma80]

23 minutes ago, CANSIAM said:

Mentioned the same thing ( transfering too much money from abroad and staying here over 180 days ) to a bank manager at SCB recently, eyebrows raised, smiled,  had no idea what I was talking about.......

Why would they? Neither immigration nor a bank are the Thai Revenue Dept. Until either are directed under law to make revenue matters a part of their process, they could care less.

[CANSIAM]

8 minutes ago, Karma80 said:

Why would they? Neither immigration nor a bank are the Thai Revenue Dept. Until either are directed under law to make revenue matters a part of their process, they could care less.

5-10 year implementation process, the 90 day online reporting is still under processing as well......... 

[gejohesch]

On 9/16/2024 at 1:13 AM, LOG54 said:

And what if they tax anyway and let you go through the court process to have the Thai tax cancelled ?...

They can also ask to file a tax return, calculate the Thai tax amount and deduct what you pay abroad.. From my calculation even with all deductions (elderly people bonus etc..,) thai tax is higher than tax I pay abroad.. difference for me would be quite huge..

Have a good day

"They can also ask to file a tax return, calculate the Thai tax amount and deduct what you pay abroad"

Sure, they can ask for a tax return, that would be expected. But if you are citizen of a country that has a bi-lateral agreement with Thailand, and that agreement covers taxation (it would normally do), then Thailand just has to abide by the letter of that agreement, if not Thailand has a dispute not just with you, but with the government of the country of which you are a citizen. Period. Now, such agreements come in various forms and shades and you would have to check what your own situation is. Myself, I know exactly the following (Iwas resident and had been employed in Thailand for a few years, some time ago) : whatever income I get sourced in my home country is taxable in my home country + whatever income I get sourced in Thailand is taxable in Thailand. I went through a number of yearly exercices, so I know. Now, if I become resident in Thailand again and if Thailand want to tax me on whatever income I receive in my home country, Thaianld will pick up a fight with my home country because that would be simply illegal.

 

Years ago, I checked what my tax situation would be if I became resident in India - sthg I contemplated for a while. There is a bi-lateral agreement between my home country and India, and it stipulates that if I'm resident in India, my pension income (sourced in my home country) becomes taxable in India and not in my home country.

 

I write this at length and I'm aware of some repeats, but I wanted to make it clear : Thailand cannot do whatever they like to do wrt taxing citizens of countries with which Thailand has a bi-lateral agreement. Again, and for the last time : check if there is a bi-lateral agreement between your country and Thailand, check what it says wrt taxation, and in case of doubt consult your country diplomatic representation in Thailand, consulate or whatever.