Thai Benefits vs Taxation.

[chiang mai]

Many members have said that if they have to pay income tax in Thailand, they want Thai benefits. I thought it might be interesting to look into that for a moment. It’s worth saying at the outset that most benefits in Thailand are a result of paying contributions into the Social Security Fund, not only paying income tax, just as pension benefits etc are a function of National Insurance contributions in the UK and of Social Security Payments in the US.

 

The benefits most people seem to want are as follows:

 

- membership of the 30 baht health scheme

- equal pricing for entry to National Parks

- general social security benefits

 

Health Care

 

The government run health system here can be very very good and there are some excellent medical staff within the system. But I will be very surprised if most foreigners would really want to be part of the 30 baht scheme or would even use it, because it typically involves a number of negatives aspects initially although it can eventually evolve into good quality medical care. Those negatives include:

 

- long waits for treatment

- treatment by junior or poorly skilled doctors

- no of choice of doctor

- medical staff with little or no English language proficiency

- lack of choice of treatment location

- often low grade accommodation, food and facilities

 

If foreign patients wanted good quality care, right now, and minimal language issues, in pleasant surroundings, the 30 baht scheme would not be a good option, in most areas. Those things said, it is a cost effective system.

 

National Parks Entry Fee

 

National Park entry fee dual pricing is a government policy rather than a subsided benefit, achieving parity in this area requires a change in policy that will probably never happen since it applies to visitors, and residents.

 

General Social Security

 

Unemployment and Retirement benefits here are not great by Western standards, unless you’ve paid into the Social Security fund for most of your working life, in which case, the SSc health insurance benefit is worthwhile. I think retirement benefits amount to only a couple of thousand a month at best.

 

I’m sure there are other benefits people want so it will be interesting to hear what they are.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BritManToo]

3 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Health Care

 

The government run health system here can be very very good and there are some excellent medical staff within the system. But I will be very surprised if most foreigners would really want to be part of the 30 baht scheme or would even use it, because it typically involves a number of negatives aspects initially although it can eventually evolve into good quality medical care. Those negatives include:

 

- long waits for treatment

- treatment by junior or poorly skilled doctors

- no of choice of doctor

- medical staff with little or no English language proficiency

- lack of choice of treatment location

- often low grade accommodation, food and facilities

Same as the NHS then.

 

But they ain't gonna tax us, just another 'sky is falling' crazy idea perpetrated by a bunch of old white guys living in fear of everything.

Edited September 18 by BritManToo

[chiang mai]

4 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Same as the NHS then.

 

But they ain't gonna tax us, just another 'sky is falling' crazy idea.

That wasn't the question or issue, benefits is the issue being discussed.

[BritManToo]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

That wasn't the question or issue, benefits is the issue being discussed.

Thread title ..........Thai Benefits vs Taxation.

Edited September 18 by BritManToo

[chiang mai]

16 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Maybe you shouldn't have mentioned 'Taxation' in the thread title then.

Maybe you should have read the title and the first para then!

Edited September 18 by chiang mai

[BritManToo]

15 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

It’s worth saying at the outset that most benefits in Thailand are a result of paying contributions into the Social Security Fund,

That's just not true ..........

Less than 20% of Thai nationals have ever paid income tax.

Bangkok Post says currently only 14% of the Thai population pay income tax.

 

"Thailand has a population of almost 70 million people.

Out of 9.55 million taxpayers,................"

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2020179/revenue-department-plan-intends-to-add-some-500-000-taxpayers.

Edited September 18 by BritManToo

[chiang mai]

22 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

That's just not true ..........

Less than 20% of Thai nationals have ever paid income tax.

Bangkok Post says currently only 14% of the Thai population pay income tax.

 

"Thailand has a population of almost 70 million people.

Out of 9.55 million taxpayers,................"

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2020179/revenue-department-plan-intends-to-add-some-500-000-taxpayers.

The population of Thailand is not relevant to how many people pay tax, the size of the workforce is the only factor since Thai retirees, disabled, incarcerated and children don't typically file tax returns. The size of the Thai work or labour force is calculated at 38 million people.

 

A couple with one child have sizeable allowances and deductions before they must file a tax return, their TEDA are:

 

+ 60k Personal Allowance, +150k zero rated for tax = 210k 

as above for the second person, +30k for the child = 240k

Total 450k or 37.5k each per month.....Thai nationals can live on that here.

[Rimmer]

Some off topic bickering posts and replies have been removed

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

Same as the NHS then.

 

 

No, the NHS is a residency based system, not a payments based system.

[impulse]

57 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

That wasn't the question or issue, benefits is the issue being discussed.

 

Speaking of benefits, I like the roads, the fact that I've never been mugged, that the poop goes away when I flush, that the elevators are pretty safe, visiting Lumpini and Queen Sirikit parks, that there's people who learned how to fix the trains, and... and...

 

None of that happens without tax money.  And more tax money than the piddly VAT.

 

[chiang mai]

Agreed. I also like the idea that out petrol/diesel is subsidised via the Fuel Subsidy Fund. When oil prices are high, that's a benefit worth having.

[RichardColeman]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

But they ain't gonna tax us, just another 'sky is falling' crazy idea perpetrated by a bunch of old white guys living in fear of everything.

I agree, CHina would crucify them

[chiang mai]

54 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The population of Thailand is not relevant to how many people pay tax, the size of the workforce is the only factor since Thai retirees, disabled, incarcerated and children don't typically file tax returns. The size of the Thai work or labour force is calculated at 38 million people.

 

A couple with one child have sizeable allowances and deductions before they must file a tax return, their TEDA are:

 

+ 60k Personal Allowance, +150k zero rated for tax = 210k 

as above for the second person, +30k for the child = 240k

Total 450k or 37.5k each per month.....Thai nationals can live on that here.

Correction, just noticed but too late to change:

 

Total 450k or 37.5k each per month, should read, for the pair, not each. That's 18.75k per month each, which is right around  the national average wage.

 

Apologies.

[redwood1]

If farangs dont pay taxes, which they are not going too....Then zero benefits are fair......Zero in Zero out fair is fair....

 

The OP seems very gung ho on paying taxes....So I hope you get some benefits..

 

 

[chiang mai]

12 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

If farangs dont pay taxes, which they are not going too....Then zero benefits are fair......Zero in Zero out fair is fair....

 

The OP seems very gung ho on paying taxes....So I hope you get some benefits..

 

 

Huh! I don't pay tax here, not unless it's advantageous for me to do so.

 

But you hope I get some benefits from living here, I do, lots and lots.

[Nemises]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I’m sure there are other benefits people want so it will be interesting to hear what they are.

Free weekly massages with a joyous finish. 

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, Nemises said:

Free weekly massages with a joyous finish. 

A cost of living that's about 103% cheaper than my home town.

 

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Thailand&country2=United+Kingdom&city1=Chiang+Mai&city2=Lancaster

[Yumthai]

100% property/company ownership is to be expected when resident foreigners are full tax liable as citizens.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

100% property/company ownership is to be expected when resident foreigners are full tax liable as citizens.

The Thai government restricted land ownership to only Thai's, in about 1970, because Indian speculators were driving up land and property prices, a scenario most people can relate to in many countries. I bet there are many countries wish they had/could do the same.

[Old Croc]

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I’m sure there are other benefits people want so it will be interesting to hear what they are.

How about actual residency more in line with the concept of tax residency. 

Longer and more secure retirement and marriage visas. Do away with the demeaning home visits, idiot picture taking, banking and 3-month reporting regimes. 

The right to own your family home

 

Don't deflect by stating PR is an alternative,

Edited September 18 by Old Croc

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Old Croc said:

How about actual residency more in line with the concept of tax residency. 

Longer and more secure retirement and marriage visas. Do away with the demeaning home visits, idiot picture taking, banking and 3-month reporting regimes. 

 

Don't deflect by stating PR is an alternative,

I agree completely, make retirement living more certain for older people.

[chiang mai]

I would also like to see the government offer foreigners health insurance that was fairer than the commercial polices on offer in Thailand. It's easily within their power to offer a policy that is sensibly proceed that doesn't include private hospital prices. Perhaps membership of the Social Security medical insurance program but at an increased price.

[kiwiaussie]

Most foreigners working here (excluding international schoolteachers and company directors) are automatically entitled to getting Thai social security benefits. The stand out one is the lifetime health care which is great value so long as you sign up for it and continue paying the tiny 432 baht per month premium. 

 

https://www.thaicitizenship.com/thai-social-security/ 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, kiwiaussie said:

Most foreigners working here (excluding international schoolteachers and company directors) are automatically entitled to getting Thai social security benefits. The stand out one is the lifetime health care which is great value so long as you sign up for it and continue paying the tiny 432 baht per month premium. 

 

https://www.thaicitizenship.com/thai-social-security/ 

I agree that's good value. The problem is that only covers about 160k of the 300k western expats, the other 140k are on long stay visa's and don't have access to that system.

[Yumthai]

42 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

47 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

100% property/company ownership is to be expected when resident foreigners are full tax liable as citizens.

The Thai government restricted land ownership to only Thai's, in about 1970, because Indian speculators were driving up land and property prices, a scenario most people can relate to in many countries. I bet there are many countries wish they had/could do the same.

 

Here's the small list of countries, mainly in Asia, that restrict foreign ownership:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_ownership

Thailand wants to play with the big boys applying to join OECD with all the global control and tax compliance that come along.

If successful it will the only OECD country with full foreign ownership restrictions, can't see that happening without giving stuff up.

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, Yumthai said:

100% property/company ownership is to be expected when resident foreigners are full tax liable as citizens.

I agree, and would also add, a reasonable pathway to permanent residency. 

 

As it stands now, they want to tax foreigners, whilst still giving them no rights. 

[oldcpu]

On 9/18/2024 at 7:13 AM, chiang mai said:

Many members have said that if they have to pay income tax in Thailand, they want Thai benefits. I thought it might be interesting to look into that for a moment. It’s worth saying at the outset that most benefits in Thailand are a result of paying contributions into the Social Security Fund, not only paying income tax, just as pension benefits etc are a function of National Insurance contributions in the UK and of Social Security Payments in the US.

 

The benefits most people seem to want are as follows:

 

- membership of the 30 baht health scheme

- equal pricing for entry to National Parks

- general social security benefits

 

 

I would not restrict it there. 

 

I have read many state 'no taxation without representation' ... where I think those who state that tend to come from one country. But my understanding is those who type that want the right to vote in Thailand if they are taxed.

 

Also, I think many if they are taxed in Thailand, they would like the right to own land in Thailand.

 

So I would expand the benefits if one' wishes to include the benefits most people want.

 

In my case I am happy with my Foreign freehold condo, my foreign pensions mostly from countries with DTAs with Thailand, and my foreign subsidized health insurance (as part of my pensions), ... but not everyone is in the same situation as myself.

[Everyman]

On 9/18/2024 at 10:21 AM, chiang mai said:

I would also like to see the government offer foreigners health insurance that was fairer than the commercial polices on offer in Thailand. It's easily within their power to offer a policy that is sensibly proceed that doesn't include private hospital prices. Perhaps membership of the Social Security medical insurance program but at an increased price.

 

The reason health insurance prices are so high for foreigners is because in the last 15 years or so, hospitals (including government ones) have realized that is another way to rip off foreigners and charge them far more than Thais for the same treatments. 

 

That “25%” more value is the minimum. 

 

Hopefully nobody will respond with a silly argument like “it’s still cheaper than America” or “it’s only fair since you are a guest in their country.” I get tired of reading that crap.  🙄 

 

But anyway, I think it’s reasonable to say that if there are any new taxes, foreigners will get Absolutely Nothing out of it. 

Edited September 30 by Everyman

[bkk6060]

Benefits?  All that stuff mentioned I can take a flight home in less than one day and get.

What I can't get; is a date with a sexy 25 year old. The health and mental benefits, quality of life not dealing with some burned out, bad attitude, fat old hag are huge I think. Old nagging lady purgatory death. Worth for me to pay some tax here.

But, I guess to some having a National Park subscription is at the top of their list.

[redwood1]

20 minutes ago, Everyman said:

 

The reason health insurance prices are so high for foreigners is because in the last 15 years or so, hospitals (including government ones) have realized that is another way to rip off foreigners and charge them far more than Thais for the same treatments. 

 

That “25%” more value is the minimum. 

 

Hopefully nobody will respond with a silly argument like “it’s still cheaper than America” or “it’s only fair since you are a guest in their country.” I get tired of reading that crap.  🙄 

 

But anyway, I think it’s reasonable to say that if there are any new taxes, foreigners will get Absolutely Nothing out of it. 

 

I have said this repeatedly......But.....After every farang in Thailand takes any and all measures to make sure they pay zero taxes....The Thais will be looking at their few farang tax bread crumbs and say whats heck happend.....lol......Hey ,we were offering ABSOLUTELY ZERO benefits...What went wrong....lol