Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[JimGant]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

If I can see something in writing from a reputable well known tax consultancy that answers that question, I will accept the answer, as long as it's clear and definitive. 

MPG -- very reputable -- has already responded. But, who cares what you accept. I'll be happy that you continue to waste your time, and TRD's, by filing nil tax returns.

[Lorry]

I am a bit sick of reading back and forth and back and forth and back and forth "do I have to file taxes if I don't owe tax"

I have understood the positions of the 2 sides, could you please stop this discussion.

[Mike Lister]

How about a competition of restraint? The first person to post against another poster in the thread, leaves the debate for one week. I think we all understand very well what is meant by posting against another poster, there's zero need to spell it out. By all means disagree with the opinion of another poster but don't negatively personalise your response in any way. Agreed?

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Lorry said:

I am a bit sick of reading back and forth and back and forth and back and forth "do I have to file taxes if I don't owe tax"

I have understood the positions of the 2 sides, could you please stop this discussion.

I can agree to that, until such time as there is unquestionable and verifiable proof, one way or the other, from an authoritative source. The question needing to be answered being:

 

"I calculate that I have assessable income of 500,000, which is well above the (technical) filing threshold. But I have TEDA of 500,000 which I calculate, means I shouldn't have to pay tax any tax. My question is, do I have to file a return?"

 

Agreed?

[jwest10]

41 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I can agree to that, until such time as there is unquestionable and verifiable proof, one way or the other, from an authoritative source. The question needing to be answered being:

 

"I calculate that I have assessable income of 500,000, which is well above the (technical) filing threshold. But I have TEDA of 500,000 which I calculate, means I shouldn't have to pay tax any tax. My question is, do I have to file a return?"

 

Agreed?

Mike, many of us do not get assessable income over and above the personal allowances of 500k and I would think most of us in this situation.
As I have stated have been to the local tax office both today and last week and they not aware of this income tax issue but strongly suggest wait  until and if there is please wait for official news!!!

Edited July 18 by jwest10

[Mike Lister]

5 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

Mike, your regard for the law is, well, admirable (?). But your tax advice xxxxs (not a personal attack!! please, mods -- just an observation)

Once again, I don't give tax advice to anyone, only information from reliable and verifiable sources so that people can make their own decisions....but you've always  known that.

[Middle Aged Grouch]

On 7/4/2024 at 9:31 AM, Presnock said:

Unless there is some kind of change, I find it difficult for banks to deduct any taxes until one is definitely declared as a Tax Resident.  Prior to the 180 day (this year 27 June), if one had been in country the entire 180 days, year he would be a tax resident but unless the banks know exactly how many days one has been here during the year, they could not know one is a tax resident unless immigration and the revenue department start seeing ALL the ins and outs of expats - seems to be a job much larger than either could handle easily so in my opinion, banks won't be involved in the tax issue other than through the OECD, CRS, FACTA exchanges.  I don't know how any of these interact with the Thais - through the Revenue Department, banks or what?  Anyone have a clue? not me so I just don't think they could handle it anytime soon.  I do hope all excape being caught up in this program needlessly.

I am not a resident and the bank deducted a small amount of tax the other day....

[OJAS]

4 hours ago, JimGant said:

I'll be happy that you continue to waste your time, and TRD's, by filing nil tax returns.

 

Anything we can do in order to waste the TRD's time is surely to be applauded!😜

 

[Klonko]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I can agree to that, until such time as there is unquestionable and verifiable proof, one way or the other, from an authoritative source. The question needing to be answered being:

 

"I calculate that I have assessable income of 500,000, which is well above the (technical) filing threshold. But I have TEDA of 500,000 which I calculate, means I shouldn't have to pay tax any tax. My question is, do I have to file a return?"

 

Agreed?

I would include the zero tax bracket: "I calculate that I have assessable income of 600,000, which is well above the (technical) filing threshold. But I have TEDA of 500,000 which I calculate, means I shouldn't have to pay tax any tax. My question is, do I have to file a return?" To 

[UKresonant]

Was thinking, if the wife filed, and I had tipped over the 179 Days, and I was noted on her form as filing separately. Would that flag up if they could not see a submission from myself I wonder?

[Mike Lister]

3 hours ago, Klonko said:

I would include the zero tax bracket: "I calculate that I have assessable income of 600,000, which is well above the (technical) filing threshold. But I have TEDA of 500,000 which I calculate, means I shouldn't have to pay tax any tax. My question is, do I have to file a return?" To 

I had included the zero rated band as part of TEDA (which technically it is not of course) but yes, after all deductions and zero rated exemption.

[Mike Lister]

6 hours ago, Klonko said:

I would include the zero tax bracket: "I calculate that I have assessable income of 600,000, which is well above the (technical) filing threshold. But I have TEDA of 500,000 which I calculate, means I shouldn't have to pay tax any tax. My question is, do I have to file a return?" To 

Just so there's no doubt about the question that needs to be answered:

 

"I have Thai assessable income of 500,000 baht, which is well above the minimum assessable income filing threshold. But I have combined TEDA and tax free allowances of 500,000 baht (including the zero rated band) which I calculate means I shouldn't have to pay tax any tax. My question is, do I have to file a tax return?"

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Just so there's no doubt about the question that needs to be answered:

 

"I have Thai assessable income of 500,000 baht, which is well above the minimum assessable income filing threshold. But I have combined TEDA and tax free allowances of 500,000 baht (including the zero rated band) which I calculate means I shouldn't have to pay tax any tax. My question is, do I have to file a tax return?"

The answer I got was 'No' and before you ask or state this - none of those other tax companies said I did have to lodge a tax return.  I sent them all the same detailed request asking for an estimate/quote of how much they would charge me to lodge a Thai tax return - including the use of the Thai-Aust DTA.  That one company wrote back stating that I did not have to lodge a tax return, because I had no taxes to pay, was a surprise. Some companies have integrity - that one clearly has a lot of integrity and if ever needed they are my first call. I note in the past that they also gave me great and honest advice when I asked about becoming a Thai Resident - the others I asked back then all gave me an estimate of their costs and the likely timeframe.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

The answer I got was 'No' and before you ask or state this - none of those other tax companies said I did have to lodge a tax return.  I sent them all the same detailed request asking for an estimate/quote of how much they would charge me to lodge a Thai tax return - including the use of the Thai-Aust DTA.  That one company wrote back stating that I did not have to lodge a tax return, because I had no taxes to pay, was a surprise. Some companies have integrity - that one clearly has a lot of integrity and if ever needed they are my first call. I note in the past that they also gave me great and honest advice when I asked about becoming a Thai Resident - the others I asked back then all gave me an estimate of their costs and the likely timeframe.

Respectfully T&G, several members have grown very tired of this debate and have asked that we discuss other aspects of tax, which is just fine by me, I hope it with you three also. I've put up the question that I would like answered to provide me with confidence in the correct answer regarding whether to file or not. Can I suggest we now close down the topic....I at least will bow out of any further comments on this subject, until my question is answered.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

Over the last few days I have received a few PMs - and when finishing one reply I realised this should be provided (edited) for others that might also want my opinions - with clear disclaimer about not giving tax advice. So here it is (edited).

 

"The reason (I think) that both quotes were so high is because I summarised my financial situation (anticipating forward 12 months), and that included all my Pension Payments, and my withdrawals from my Retirement Savings Account (including 'earnings'), and from a small Inheritance, and the use of the Thai-Australia DTA to ensure my tax was minimised and no double taxation applied.  IMO they are 'reaping the crop' of the taxation fear created by the announcement of the change, the subsequent lack of detailed clarifications, and the interpretation/belief of some Expats, that we should be paying income taxes to live in Thailand. IMO Thailand has no moral right to tax people they treat as parolees and who have no legal rights and no Govt services provided to them (but that issue is for another day).

 

If you are bringing money into Thailand that is in the form of ----------------------, then it would be very expensive doing that - but up to you. The Thai Tax Dept will not be able to verify all those transfers and lodging a tax return based on those transfers would probably cost more to put together (based on receipts?) than my quotes. But their first question will be what was the source of the money you used to pay/get that money? Working? Rental? Investments? Accumulated Savings?  Unless it is 'income' as defined in the TRD Tax Code, it is not assessable income in Thailand - plus there are many types of 'income' listed that are not taxed in Thailand. IMO you can and should check that all yourself rather than paying an accountant to do that for you.  Section 38_64 | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

 

That Thailand tax system is not simple and easy, nor consistent or 'fair', like that in the West and which you are probably used to - it can be very difficult depending on which Tax Officer in the Provincial Office assesses your income tax return (same as with Immigration). Then when it comes to the application of the provisions in the 61 DTAs that Thailand has with other countries, that is another level of complexity and source of potential problems.  I think that is a big chunk of the costs those companies quoted.

 

The reason I asked those companies to provide me a quote/estimate was to find out how much it would cost, because I did not accept people saying we must lodge a tax return and that it is easy. It was a surprise to me when one of them stated that they had done some analysis and I was not required to lodge a tax return because I would not have to pay any income taxes.

 

My 'income' was well over the assessable amount - but after the allowances and exemptions and provisions of the DTA were taken into account, I did not have any income tax amount to pay.  I will not go into details, but some Thai apologists are saying if you have over 'XYZ' in 'assessable income' (as detailed on that TRD website above) you must lodge a tax return.  The advice I have anecdotally received from many people, and now in writing form a tax firm, is that if you do not have to pay income taxes (after allowances etc deducted) then you do not have to lodge a tax return. That is the way it has operated in Thailand for a long time - and that is why only about 10 million Thais lodge tax returns - and the fact is that TRD has never pursued all those retired Expats and non-lodging Thais, because they dont want millions of tax returns being processed that have no tax payments associated with them. TRD does not have the resources or expertise to manage an extra 20-30 million tax returns - especially from the 300-400K Expats living in Thailand who do not work in Thailand. 

 

Hope that helps you understand how things really are.  BUT having said that, the TRD has been saying they want Expats to pay income taxes and the Government is desperate for money as the economy continues to crash. We will not know until later this year whether Thailand will follow Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia who all specifically exclude Expats money, brought into their country from their home country, from paying income taxes.  I mean what sort of idiots would tax Tourists for the money they transfer into Thailand to pay for their holidays and living costs - that would be stupid. That reminds me of that quote by Gomez in that old TV show The Addams Family (only a fool would ................ ).

 

In addition - I should have said that my total assessable income was well over 500K Baht, plus I transferred over money that was from my retirement savings, with the total being over 1.2 million Baht (we play golf a lot and travel)

[TroubleandGrumpy]

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Respectfully T&G, several members have grown very tired of this debate and have asked that we discuss other aspects of tax, which is just fine by me, I hope it with you three also. I've put up the question that I would like answered to provide me with confidence in the correct answer regarding whether to file or not. Can I suggest we now close down the topic....I at least will bow out of any further comments on this subject, until my question is answered.

I already posted my previous post about some PM exchanges before reading this one of yours. That was not intended to debate this matter with you any further - many people are asking me for my opinion and being a public forum for open discussions that will be what I do going forward.

 

I have clearly conveyed to everyone the reality and truthfulness of what I was advised, and what I am going to do, unless official advice comes from TRD to the contrary.  I will give you this ML, others that accused me of making up that tax advice have all disappeared, and you are the only one who stood up and accepted it - credit to you for that.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

6 hours ago, UKresonant said:

Was thinking, if the wife filed, and I had tipped over the 179 Days, and I was noted on her form as filing separately. Would that flag up if they could not see a submission from myself I wonder?

Good question - I would suggest you should probably either lodge or dodge (as in get out of .......).

I dont think their 'system' will flag you for immediate checking, but maybe your name would be added to a list to be 'checked later'.

After all, they can go back and investigate for many years later - all they need is your name and passport etc.

 

Another reason to be careful boys - if you get into a relationship 'spat' this could be used against you. 

Not saying that UKresonant is in one, but obviously another Thai wife/GF with 'issues' could 'report' you. 

[Mike Lister]

6 hours ago, UKresonant said:

Was thinking, if the wife filed, and I had tipped over the 179 Days, and I was noted on her form as filing separately. Would that flag up if they could not see a submission from myself I wonder?

The TRD wouldn't necessarily know that you'd gone over 179 days. A spouse filing separately doesn't imply anything really about the other person. My wife files every year whereas there are years when I don't file, it just means I wasn't required to file, under their rules.

[jwest10]

Message to Top T

Do not know why but I can not reply to your sick and tired of what?
I was just stating my experiences of my local tax office this week and last and was being just helpful but you seem to be a newcomer and stating my first experiences that is all.
Too many on here just seem to want to fight or provoke arguments.

I was told just to wait and see if there is any official announcement and they did not know about the issue as it stands
BTW  the Pattaya rag did say this week 100k tax forms were sent this week just the Thai Nationals and that is just the Thais.

OK Top T and others in stating what was my experiences!!


 

[jwest10]

13 hours ago, topt said:

How many times are you going to "state" this before you get bored with writing it - because it sure is boring reading your continual repetition of exactly the same thing.

It adds precisely zero to the whole tax discussion but then again you are not alone there........

Ok now can but did a post just for you topT whatever that means.

Sick and tired of what?
Just stating what my 2 very recent visits to my local tax office this week and last.

They advised to just wait for any official announcement and they did not know and also unaware of this ex-pat tax issue.

I was just being helpful and you can and have shot me down and too many on here seem to want to fight though not seen any of your posts before on this issue top T whatever that stands for!
Yes I noticed the Pattaya  newspaper stating 100k tax forms have been sent out by post just to Thai Nationals ok
We do not like your snide little digs at the people who are working hard for so many others and yes, especially Mike Lister.
Thank you topT we look forward to your expert opinion ok!!
Cut it ok
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr zingggggggggggg to you

Edited July 19 by jwest10

[dinga]

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I already posted my previous post about some PM exchanges before reading this one of yours. That was not intended to debate this matter with you any further - many people are asking me for my opinion and being a public forum for open discussions that will be what I do going forward.

 

I have clearly conveyed to everyone the reality and truthfulness of what I was advised, and what I am going to do, unless official advice comes from TRD to the contrary.  I will give you this ML, others that accused me of making up that tax advice have all disappeared, and you are the only one who stood up and accepted it - credit to you for that.

MIKE

 

Given the entrenched competing views, I'm thinking a simple answer to this simple question may help folks decide what to do...........For a tax resident whose income exceeds the minimum but who has Zero Tax to pay, what is the penalty for NOT lodging a Tax Return?

 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, dinga said:

MIKE

 

Given the entrenched competing views, I'm thinking a simple answer to this simple question may help folks decide what to do...........For a tax resident whose income exceeds the minimum but who has Zero Tax to pay, what is the penalty for NOT lodging a Tax Return?

 

There is a potential fine of 2,000 baht but nobody is aware of anyone who has been made to pay the fine. The other risk factor for not filing is that it exposes the taxpayer to back audits for the past ten years, instead of the normal three years for people who have filed.

 

I expect the situation regarding who must file, to be clarified at some point.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

7 minutes ago, dinga said:

MIKE

 

Given the entrenched competing views, I'm thinking a simple answer to this simple question may help folks decide what to do...........For a tax resident whose income exceeds the minimum but who has Zero Tax to pay, what is the penalty for NOT lodging a Tax Return?

 

Technically - 2000 Baht.

2000 Baht times 30-40 Million people who dont lodge tax returns would solve their economic disaster 🙂

 

 

Edited July 19 by TroubleandGrumpy

[dinga]

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

There is a potential fine of 2,000 baht but nobody is aware of anyone who has been made to pay the fine. The other risk factor for not filing is that it exposes the taxpayer to back audits for the past ten years, instead of the normal three years for people who have filed.

 

I expect the situation regarding who must file, to be clarified at some point.

 

Thanks - my additional understanding is that the extension to 10 years is (a) only allowed after internal TRD requests & deliberations [not automatic]; AND in any event (b) restricted to cases of believed tax evasion [a position which would seem to be impossible for the TRD to conclude if the usual 2/3 year audit period determined Zero tax was payable for those years]   

[Mike Lister]

19 minutes ago, dinga said:

 

Thanks - my additional understanding is that the extension to 10 years is (a) only allowed after internal TRD requests & deliberations [not automatic]; AND in any event (b) restricted to cases of believed tax evasion [a position which would seem to be impossible for the TRD to conclude if the usual 2/3 year audit period determined Zero tax was payable for those years]   

Possibly, I don't know about that.

 

At some point the issue of who must file under what circumstances, will get addressed, I am certain of that.

Edited July 19 by Mike Lister

[Mike Lister]

28 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Technically - 2000 Baht.

2000 Baht times 30-40 Million people who dont lodge tax returns would solve their economic disaster 🙂

 

 

2k baht x 40 million is less than half a percent of GDP!

[Khyron]

I have a quick question, It may have been answered already, but i'm not going to slog through 38 pages of replies.

 

If I send 3million baht later this year, but am not in country more than 180 days, I don't owe anything as I do not reach the time in country threshold. 

Next year, I am not in country more than 180 days, again no tax owed as the time in country threshold has not been met.

The year after, do I owe anything from the prior two years if I stay more than 180 days? 

 

The only money sent was the original 3million from 2024, but not more than 180 days in 2024, 2025, but 2026 I am in over 180 days. Will I ever owe anything? This is all savings that has been taxed in the US.

 

These are hypothetical numbers and dates, nothing has been sent yet.

 

Thanks for the replies.

[BritManToo]

Not being able to read Thai, not being a member of any expat forums, and not having contact with any other foreigners/news/etc .......

I'm waiting for the authorities to contact me, in English.

 

Else I won't know I'm required (or not) to fill in any forms (in English) or to pay any income tax in Thailand.

Ignorance is bliss!

Edited July 19 by BritManToo

[UKresonant]

5 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Good question - I would suggest you should probably either lodge or dodge (as in get out of .......).

I dont think their 'system' will flag you for immediate checking, but maybe your name would be added to a list to be 'checked later'.

After all, they can go back and investigate for many years later - all they need is your name and passport etc.

 

Another reason to be careful boys - if you get into a relationship 'spat' this could be used against you. 

Not saying that UKresonant is in one, but obviously another Thai wife/GF with 'issues' could 'report' you. 

Interesting aspect, never thought of that aspect, I can visualize that for some acquaintances, far in the past.

 

Yes, that could be a risk anticipated for some couples, in the event of a fall out.

 

The the previous rule of remitting only savings from past tax years also perhaps  mitigated the risk of 'do this or I will report you to RD' possibilities.

 

(Luckily I can trust my wife implicitly, a spat is when I get the silent treatment for a wee while .)

[motdaeng]

49 minutes ago, Khyron said:

I have a quick question, It may have been answered already, but i'm not going to slog through 38 pages of replies.

 

If I send 3million baht later this year, but am not in country more than 180 days, I don't owe anything as I do not reach the time in country threshold. 

Next year, I am not in country more than 180 days, again no tax owed as the time in country threshold has not been met.

The year after, do I owe anything from the prior two years if I stay more than 180 days? 

 

The only money sent was the original 3million from 2024, but not more than 180 days in 2024, 2025, but 2026 I am in over 180 days. Will I ever owe anything? This is all savings that has been taxed in the US.

 

These are hypothetical numbers and dates, nothing has been sent yet.

 

Thanks for the replies.

 

if you are not a tax resident in thailand for that year (spending fewer than 180 days in th),

you can transfer in that year as much money to thailand as you wish ...