Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[chiang mai]

21 minutes ago, roobaa01 said:

Good day

 

Now the new prime ministeress has been installed and as it looks like the investors community is in favor with trust as the THB strengthened. Thereto the THB 10k digital wallet waste to be skipped I think also the income tax matter will be disappear in the drawer and all excitement was a waste .

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

I don't believe that the reports about cancellation of the wallet scheme has anything to do with THB appearing stronger, that is solely a USD value issue.

 

BTW a female PM is still called a Prime Minister.

 

https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/index/dxy

 

Edited August 19 by chiang mai
Add US DI graph

[TroubleandGrumpy]

22 hours ago, topt said:

 

 

So should be no problem to close all the tax threads until some new "official" news appears...........

Unfortunately not a snowball  in hell's chance ............

You know how to use a mouse/finger??   Then click/swipe left and move on to another subject mate.

[chiang mai]

Personally I don't think there's any likelihood that the new PM will cancel the changes to tax laws and looking for evidence that it will is foolish. The Baht has strengthened (actually USD has weakened), as have all Asian currencies, but this is the result of market expectations that the US Fed will reduce rates and is nothing to do with the new Thai government (Jackson Hole reports later this week may shed some light on this). Markets continue to see a rough ride ahead for the new government, versus the BOT position on interest rates. 

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/goldilocks-scenario-boosts-asian-currencies-022522653.html

 

 

 

 

Edited August 19 by chiang mai

[JackGats]

21 hours ago, redwood1 said:

 

I think  "center of vital interest" is a classic Thai definition...Because it can mean what ever the person reading it wants it to mean.....For some one they like it might mean 5000 days and for someone they dont like it might mean 50 days......

 

Flexible definitions can come in very handy to the right people....

I don't think this is typically Thai, quite the reverse. Countries like France, Germany, Belgium ... have this vital interest thing explicitly written down in their tax rules. Such devious flexibility means they reserve the right to ensnare people into their tax net who make it a point of staying less than 180 days. At the same time, those who stay over 180 days are toast, for how can you stay over 180 days per year and not have your "vital interest" within the country? It's a win-win for the tax man.

 

As for the Thais, they have repeated on several occasion that tax residents were people who stayed more than 180 days.

[jwest10]

On 8/18/2024 at 10:47 AM, redwood1 said:

Here is some thing to think about...

 

Does anyone think Thaksin who is just about the biggest Tax cheat in Thailands history will be concerned with strong arming a few baht out of retired expats?

 

Now that would be funny trying to get retirees on small pensions to pay up when a billionaire refuses to pay up....

 

The only way to save face would be to just forget the whole thing a never mention taxes again...

Yes except all these so-called politicians are all above the law except their own and same same throughout the world!!!

[roobaa01]

Gday

Like I thought no one sheds a light on globalism with the new prime ministress not Minister the Davis club can get lost. For god sake they sacked sretta.

 

Now is Thailand sovereignty and also bla bla Reports No Investors demand Thai bath.

 

Msg

Peter1

[KhunHeineken]

On 8/18/2024 at 11:58 AM, OJAS said:

My concern as a Brit is more with what the UK/TH has to say, not the AU/TH

I thought this forum was open to all nationalities. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 8/18/2024 at 3:47 AM, redwood1 said:

Here is some thing to think about...

 

Does anyone think Thaksin who is just about the biggest Tax cheat in Thailands history will be concerned with strong arming a few baht out of retired expats?

 

Now that would be funny trying to get retirees on small pensions to pay up when a billionaire refuses to pay up....

 

The only way to save face would be to just forget the whole thing a never mention taxes again...

Isn't that how Thailand works though?  One law for the lower class, no law for the wealthy?

 

Thailand implements the tax, in one form or another, and appears to be modernizing on the global stage, and similar to western countries, meanwhile, Thaksin repatriates his billions using whole accounting and law firms to ensure he pays no tax, just like billionaires do in the west.

 

Just on this point, why would Thaksin bring back all his money when he could be arrest and charge with anything at any time and his money confiscated.  He would be better leaving his money outside Thai jurisdiction, similar to the way wealthy Chinese get their money out of China. 

[stat]

3 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Isn't that how Thailand works though?  One law for the lower class, no law for the wealthy?

 

Thailand implements the tax, in one form or another, and appears to be modernizing on the global stage, and similar to western countries, meanwhile, Thaksin repatriates his billions using whole accounting and law firms to ensure he pays no tax, just like billionaires do in the west.

 

Just on this point, why would Thaksin bring back all his money when he could be arrest and charge with anything at any time and his money confiscated.  He would be better leaving his money outside Thai jurisdiction, similar to the way wealthy Chinese get their money out of China. 

Correct! Any clear thinking individual with enough funds has his/her money in several jurisdictions. Three flag five flag theory etc. Any rich russian, thai etc has his money outside of his home country with little need to transfer the majority of his money.

[KhunHeineken]

21 hours ago, stat said:

Correct! Any clear thinking individual with enough funds has his/her money in several jurisdictions. Three flag five flag theory etc. Any rich russian, thai etc has his money outside of his home country with little need to transfer the majority of his money.

Correct.  It amazes my why many expats sell up in their home country and move their life savings to Thailand, a country that only offers them the equivalent of a 1 year tourist visa, has no proper pathway to permanent residency, no proper foreign ownership of property laws, and is terribly corrupt, but hey, everyone else is doing it, so it must be fine. 

[Danderman123]

We are almost in September and still there is no sign that the Revenue Department is gearing up to process millions of tax returns from Farangs in 2025.

 

Meanwhile, I am down to 59 accessible days in Thailand (of the allowable 179 days) in the remainder of 2024, so it's off to Mexico next week for a long holiday.

[motdaeng]

50 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

We are almost in September and still there is no sign that the Revenue Department is gearing up to process millions of tax returns from Farangs in 2025.

 

Meanwhile, I am down to 59 accessible days in Thailand (of the allowable 179 days) in the remainder of 2024, so it's off to Mexico next week for a long holiday.

 

millions of tax taxes returns from foreigners ... that's an other good one, it's getting better and better! 

 

what do you expect the TRD to do? the rules and regulations have been communicated.

the new tax forms should be accessible by the end of the year.

the TRD doesn't need to do anything more at this moment.  and the TRD will most likely

not send a personal invitation to every foreigner? 

 

but i see you're "proactive" and reducing your time in thailand... well done!

 

[chiang mai]

An article in the BP dated 27 May 2024 reports that 11.9 million PIT tax returns were filed during first quarter 2024, an increase of 3.34% over the previous year.

 

The population is 70 million but the workforce is only 40 million hence between 17% and 30% of the eligible population, filed a return. I imagine 25% is a good number for discussion purposes.

[Conquerbrqvilok]

Are you taxed because you help The Thai economy? spending or bringing money into Thailand instead to be rewarded by getting a 20% interest, you have to pay the tax instead? this is a new era of slavery but controversially Asians were never lords passing history, people here are asking about forms and how to do them. remember the more you lower your head the more they climb on your shoulder, did anyone ask themselves what do you get in Thailand in exchange for paying taxes even in general cases of work? nothing compared to other countries 

[stat]

Does anyone know how long in retrospect you can hand in a tax declaration in Thailand? I am planing to hand in a 2022 tax declaration in order to get a tax certificate. Is it possible to do that in 2026?

Background I will be in TH in 2025 or 2026 if the ww income tax debacle does not come to pass in 2024 or later years. I think I would have to pay a small donation to the TRD. It is my understanding as I did not have any thai assesable income in 2022 that this is the only way.

Thanks!

Edited August 24 by stat

[chiang mai]

7 minutes ago, stat said:

Does anyone know how long in retrospect you can hand in a tax declaration in Thailand? I am planing to hand in a 2022 tax declaration in order to get a tax certificate. Is it possible to do that in 2026.

Background I will be in TH in 2025 or 2026 if the ww income tax debacle does not come to pass in 2024 or later years.

Thanks!

I have seen it said that the online system can handle returns for the past three years. I think I read that Mike Teave (?) filed past years returns successfully.

[andre47]

14 minutes ago, stat said:

Does anyone know how long in retrospect you can hand in a tax declaration in Thailand? I am planing to hand in a 2022 tax declaration in order to get a tax certificate. Is it possible to do that in 2026.

Background I will be in TH in 2025 or 2026 if the ww income tax debacle does not come to pass in 2024 or later years.

Thanks!

Why do you need a tax certificate for 2022?

You can declare your tax for the last 10 years, if you want/need. 

However, it is possible that late payment penalties and interest may then have to be paid for the late payment and, if taxes have to be paid retrospectively, default surcharges and interest. In theory, criminal proceedings are also possible if taxes were deliberately not paid.

[stat]

1 minute ago, andre47 said:

Why do you need a tax certificate for 2022?

You can declare your tax for the last 10 years, if you want/need. 

However, it is possible that late payment penalties and interest may then have to be paid for the late payment and, if taxes have to be paid retrospectively, default surcharges and interest. In theory, criminal proceedings are also possible if taxes were deliberately not paid.

Tax certificate is needed for the German IRS in order to get the reduced witholding tax of 15% instead of 26.375 for German dividends. I was not aware of this while I was in TH.

 

Actually I did not have any assesable/taxable income so I would need to resort to the donation or claim to have transmitted funds in the same year etc (which I did not). I hope I could declare some peanuts and pay 2000 Baht income tax +2000 baht penalt etc. 

Is is beyond belief that TH only issues tax residence certificates when you actually have paid PIT. All countries I know offer tax certificates when you have been a tax resident so 180 days in TH should do the trick.

 

If I am missing something and someone knows of a way of get a tax certificate without having paid PIT and a tax ID pls let me know. I can easily prove my stay in Thailand with 90 day reports and passport stamps.

 

I have been in contact with several agencies, lawers  and only a small percentage understood the problem, the others said the only way to get a tax resident certificate is by paying income tax and getting a tax ID which amounts to 40.000 Baht plus. Tax certificate can only be issued by TRD to my understanding and to the understanding of the German IRS. I have not heard of any tea money involved in this endeavour so far if possible I would greatly appreciate any hints. NB I am not in TH currently otherwise I could get the docs myself.

 

Thai RD wants yellow book photocopy, rental contract +passport pages etc not sure if they will demand anything besides this or claim rental contract needs to be in TH. Just the pp pages should be enough to prove my stay but TiT.

 

Thanks for any help!

[NoDisplayName]

41 minutes ago, stat said:

Does anyone know how long in retrospect you can hand in a tax declaration in Thailand? I am planing to hand in a 2022 tax declaration in order to get a tax certificate. Is it possible to do that in 2026?

Background I will be in TH in 2025 or 2026 if the ww income tax debacle does not come to pass in 2024 or later years. I think I would have to pay a small donation to the TRD. It is my understanding as I did not have any thai assesable income in 2022 that this is the only way.

Thanks!

 

Three years (online).

 

To be specific, last month August 2024, I filed online for 2021, 2022 and 2023.

 

What ezzackly do you need as a "tax certificate"?  You can file 2022 online now, list only your Thai bank interest and assume your remittances are non-assessable.  You will get a digitally-time-stamped pdf of your 2022 return, plus a tax receipt for 0.00 baht suitable for framing.

[NoDisplayName]

You don't need a yellow book to get a TIN.......in that case you'd use the yellow to get a pink ID and use that number.  Tax office will issue a TIN without residence certificate, you just need a good reason.  Say you want to apply for withheld tax refund.

 

If you're here in 2025, you can file online for 2022.  Possibly could go further back if you file in person.

 

Here's the download certificate you receive online when filing.  Red blocks are where your name (mine is in Thai script from pink ID) and pink ID number (or TIN) are printed.

 

 

The receipt I have for refund check in 2017 has my name in English from my TIN.

[Lorry]

4 hours ago, stat said:

Does anyone know how long in retrospect you can hand in a tax declaration in Thailand? I am planing to hand in a 2022 tax declaration in order to get a tax certificate. Is it possible to do that in 2026?

Background I will be in TH in 2025 or 2026 if the ww income tax debacle does not come to pass in 2024 or later years. I think I would have to pay a small donation to the TRD. It is my understanding as I did not have any thai assesable income in 2022 that this is the only way.

Thanks!

3 years is routine.

4, 5, 6 years can be done,  but you have to find a TRD official who likes you, who has nothing better to do, whose boss lets him waste his time with this exercise and who feels like playing with the computer to figure out how to do it.

You have to insist,  first thing they will all tell you it's impossible after more than 3 years. 

Edited August 24 by Lorry

[redwood1]

12 hours ago, stat said:

Does anyone know how long in retrospect you can hand in a tax declaration in Thailand? I am planing to hand in a 2022 tax declaration in order to get a tax certificate. Is it possible to do that in 2026?

Background I will be in TH in 2025 or 2026 if the ww income tax debacle does not come to pass in 2024 or later years. I think I would have to pay a small donation to the TRD. It is my understanding as I did not have any thai assesable income in 2022 that this is the only way.

Thanks!

 

Sir have you gone mad.........Any one that has anything to do with bureaucracy, taxes, forms, paper work, or any government officials  unless absolutely necessary I really wonder about.....

 

Best advice is forget about 2022 and stay very far away from any tax office....Now and in the future..

[stat]

19 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

You don't need a yellow book to get a TIN.......in that case you'd use the yellow to get a pink ID and use that number.  Tax office will issue a TIN without residence certificate, you just need a good reason.  Say you want to apply for withheld tax refund.

 

If you're here in 2025, you can file online for 2022.  Possibly could go further back if you file in person.

 

Here's the download certificate you receive online when filing.  Red blocks are where your name (mine is in Thai script from pink ID) and pink ID number (or TIN) are printed.

 

 

The receipt I have for refund check in 2017 has my name in English from my TIN.

Thanks for our post! I was referring to the fact that you need the yellow book (copy) for the tax certificate for whatever reason.

Edited August 25 by stat

[stat]

20 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Three years (online).

 

To be specific, last month August 2024, I filed online for 2021, 2022 and 2023.

 

What ezzackly do you need as a "tax certificate"?  You can file 2022 online now, list only your Thai bank interest and assume your remittances are non-assessable.  You will get a digitally-time-stamped pdf of your 2022 return, plus a tax receipt for 0.00 baht suitable for framing.

Like I said :

 

Tax certificate is needed for the German IRS in order to get the reduced witholding tax of 15% instead of 26.375% for German dividends. I was not aware of this while I was in TH.

 

So even if you are a US or UK guy and hold German (or some other countries) shares you will need the tax certificate in order to get a reduced witholding tax according to DBA. The US has a better system where I get the 15% rate semi automatic with the w8-BEN form. 

Edited August 25 by stat

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, stat said:

Like I said :

 

Tax certificate is needed for the German IRS in order to get the reduced witholding tax of 15% instead of 26.375% for German dividends. I was not aware of this while I was in TH.

 

So even if you are a US or UK guy and hold German (or some other countries) shares you will need the tax certificate in order to get a reduced witholding tax according to DBA. The US has a better system where I get the 15% rate semi automatic with the w8-BEN form. 

 

What ezzackly is this "tax certificate" of which you speak?

 

What about the receipt of filing I posted above that includes your name and TIN?  Would that suffice?

 

Oh.

https://www.rd.go.th/english/21980.html

 

 

Edited August 25 by NoDisplayName

[Lorry]

44 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

What ezzackly is this "tax certificate" of which you speak?

 

What about the receipt of filing I posted above that includes your name and TIN?  Would that suffice?

 

Oh.

https://www.rd.go.th/english/21980.html

 

 

I think he needs this one

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/21978.html

[stat]

3 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

What ezzackly is this "tax certificate" of which you speak?

 

What about the receipt of filing I posted above that includes your name and TIN?  Would that suffice?

 

Oh.

https://www.rd.go.th/english/21980.html

 

 

https://www.companythailand.net/tax-residence-certificate/

 

And maybe not even this tax certificate is enough for the German IRS.

[andre47]

8 hours ago, stat said:

https://www.companythailand.net/tax-residence-certificate/

 

And maybe not even this tax certificate is enough for the German IRS.

this company is amazing  555
they ask for 12000 baht to assist in getting a TIN....
you can do it youself very easy...just take a certificate of residence from your immigration and your passport and visit the RD... after 15 minutes you will get your TIN

[Presnock]

On 8/17/2024 at 5:52 PM, oldcpu said:

 

I googled, and could find no reference to alien (foreigner) ID # being ok as a Thai tax ID without first having Revenue department 'making it so'.  BUT I tend to agree that does not mean the Pink-ID card # can not be used by some method as a Thai Tax ID.

 

I also (when googling) did NOT find an 'official' Thai government page on the "Pink ID" for foreigners.  There are lots of 'purported' legal advisor pages (on the Pink-ID), but no government page that I could find.

 

EDIT: One government page I did find does refer to the Pink-ID as an identity card:

https://www.dopa.go.th/public_service/service_guide24/view472

 

That is interesting given:

 

The Pink-ID card itself is very clear on the back, where in item-1 on the back it states (my English translation) "This card is not an identification card", which reads to be contradictory as on the front page on the card at the very stop it translates to "Identification card for people without the nationality"  .... and in a lower line:  "Foreigners entering the country".  

 

In my case, to get the card I had to be registered in a 'house document'.  In my case this meant registered in a 'Yellow book' for the condominium unit that I own.  I have read that foreigners who already have a Thai tax ID can apply for a 'Pink-ID' but I do not know that is accurate.

 

Still given the card itself on one hand says (on the front) its an ID card, and then on the back says "This card is not an identification card", ... my view is this is not exactly a consistent description on the card.  

 

So when it comes to taxes, and tax-IDs, it would be nice to have a consistent description. Is this? or is this not? an ID card?

 

Still - as noted already, I know (from my experience) if one having never (yet) submitted a Thai tax return, if one then tries to  tries to use their Thai Pink-ID # in an online Thai taxation submission, it will not work. The Pink-ID # is not accepted (online) by the Revenue Department for an online tax return.

 

And I also know (from my wife on the phone with a local Thai RD official) that a Pink-ID # has to be 'activated' to be used as a Thai tax ID # (but my wife was talking to him, so possibly he was referring to a online tax submission and that detail was lost by my wife).

 

I suspect that if one submitted a Thai Tax return for a specific Thai tax year (by postal mail ?? hand carrying it to the local Thai tax office ? ), using the Pink-ID number in the place of the Thai tax ID, that the tax submission would not be immediately rejected.  I suspect instead if at the local RD office, one would instead be asked to sit down for a couple of hours at the local revenue department while the Thai officials scratched their head (and phoned Bangkok) on how to process the tax return?? But that's my speculation.

 

Anyway - I have satisfied myself that I can, for my foreign requirements, (where I have found it necessary to provide a Thai tax ID to financial institutions in Canada) that providing my Pink-ID # is acceptable to foreign institutions as a Thai Tax ID (for it could very well be such - and I further note that I have applied for the Thai tax ID where a copy of my Pink-ID was one of the documents I submitted in the application).

 

And I will continue to watch to see how this 'in-flux' taxation situation for resident foreigners pays out.

1.  It may just go away (and can be ignored by all) ? 

2.  It may (like I hope) not be something those on an LTR visa need watch and can be ignored (by LTR visa holders). 

3.  It may require tax returns from some foreigner residents (hopefully not given DTAs)

4.  ...  and it may be a nightmare for some with "Thai tax clearance certificates" making a comeback for annual permission to stay in Thailand renewals and for departures (of those on long stay visas) from Thailand (HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY UNLIKELY in my opinion that there will be a return to 'tax clearance certificates).

 

I note that the present mood in Thailand is to attract foreigners to the country (with the new visa laws) and so I tend to think the concern that foreigners who reside >180 days need to be taxed on income, could be softened or interpreted by Thailand in a way with far far less to hopefully no impact. Time will tell.

 

Possibly I am far too optimistic there.

possibly since Thailand says they want to attract more retirees then maybe they will look at the other ASEAN countries and how they responded to the new taxation schemes i.e. the PI with no taxes on remitted income.  Good luck

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, Presnock said:

possibly since Thailand says they want to attract more retirees then maybe they will look at the other ASEAN countries and how they responded to the new taxation schemes i.e. the PI with no taxes on remitted income.  Good luck

The PI may not be the best example since the PI economy is reliant on remitted funds from overseas workers.