Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

chiang mai · October 16

2 minutes ago, Lopburikid said:

Have you been to get your tax pin yet? As you need it before you can even thing about filing a tax return.. Yes, WE know about it because it is all over Thaivisa, but 90% of Thais are ignorant to the fact just like they are about our requirements for a visa. If you don't care, then don't call people liars when you know nothing about them.

I got my TIN many years ago and have been filing tax returns here since at least 2012 I guess.

Lopburikid · October 16

22 hours ago, Lopburikid said:

Were you there when they telephoned the Bangkok office? I WAS! Pathumthani and Thanyaburi ,as Where I live could be classed as either, one side of klong 6 comes under Thanyaburi postal code and the other side comes under Pathumthani postal code. IF you don't believe me, take all your documents to either one and ask them!

The Tax Identification Number (TIN) in Thailand is a unique number assigned to individuals and businesses for tax purposes. It serves as a key identifier in the Thai tax system, streamlining the process of tax collection and compliance.

chiang mai · October 16

3 minutes ago, Lopburikid said:

The Tax Identification Number (TIN) in Thailand is a unique number assigned to individuals and businesses for tax purposes. It serves as a key identifier in the Thai tax system, streamlining the process of tax collection and compliance.

This is true. But it's also worth understanding that for Thai people, their national ID card number serves as their TIN, they don't have a separate number for tax purposes hence, only none Thai's must apply for TIN's.

Lopburikid · October 16

3 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I got my TIN many years ago and have been filing tax returns here since at least 2012 I guess.

Then you must be working! As I was for 9 years had the tax card (so didn't have to pay foreigners prices at national parks ext) Plus, Nob visa renewed every year, with all the correct paperwork and tax forms. Then after 9 years I went to transfer my work permit to another company and found I hadn't paid a Bhat in Tax for 9 years, luckily I still had my tax tin card. But work permit, tax forms were all fake! So be careful.

Lopburikid · October 16

5 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

This is true. But it's also worth understanding that for Thai people, their national ID card number serves as their TIN, they don't have a separate number for tax purposes hence, only none Thai's must apply for TIN's.

Did I say Thai people needed a tax code?????? God I hope you're not a teacher, you can't even comprehend what is written.

chiang mai · October 16

1 minute ago, Lopburikid said:

Then you must be working! As I was for 9 years had the tax card (so didn't have to pay foreigners prices at national parks ext) Plus, Nob visa renewed every year, with all the correct paperwork and tax forms. Then after 9 years I went to transfer my work permit to another company and found I hadn't paid a Bhat in Tax for 9 years, luckily I still had my tax tin card. But work permit, tax forms were all fake! So be careful.

I have been retired for all my time here.

chiang mai · October 16

1 minute ago, Lopburikid said:

Did I say Thai people needed a tax code?????? God I hope you're not a teacher, you can't even comprehend what is written.

Just filling in the information gaps for the benefit of other members reading this, so they can understand the complete picture, we're not the only people reading this information!.

Talon · October 16

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

The process is this:

You decide whether you must file a tax return and declare your assessable income, if you have none, you don't need to file.

If you do file, you must decide what to declare and that includes your ATM withdrawals.

If your return is accepted, no documentation is required. If your return is queried, you will need to prove what you have said, that includes proving the sources of ALL funds remittances. Supporting documentation is not required at the point where the return is filed.

What documentation might be required/useful? Statements are a good place to start.

I understand the process and that no documentation is supposed to be required up front.

How would one PROVE ATM withdrawals if they are all done through a foreign bank and none of those funds were deposited in any Thai bank? I don't receive bank statements. It's all digital. I doubt they would accept a personal statement printout.

The last information I received regarding filing from the local TRD (which was a week ago) was that I had to show up to file my taxes with Thai bank passbooks. But there are no deposits in those passbooks after July of 2023. I don't deposit any ATM withdrawals into Thai bank accounts. The ATM withdrawals all remain in cash. My bank books in Thailand exist solely to meet visa requirements, and they were topped up and remain so a couple of years ago.

chiang mai · October 16

1 minute ago, Talon said:

I understand the process and that no documentation is supposed to be required up front.

How would one PROVE ATM withdrawals if they are all done through a foreign bank and none of those funds were deposited in any Thai bank? I don't receive bank statements. It's all digital. I doubt they would accept a personal statement printout.

The last information I received regarding filing from the local TRD (which was a week ago) was that I had to show up to file my taxes with Thai bank passbooks. But there are no deposits in those passbooks after July of 2023. I don't deposit any ATM withdrawals into Thai bank accounts. The ATM withdrawals all remain in cash. My bank books in Thailand exist solely to meet visa requirements, and they were topped up and remain so a couple of years ago.

You would treat/prove those foreign bank ATM cash withdrawals in exactly the same way as you would any other type of remittance from the foreign bank. For many people that means having a cut off statements of some description, dated 12/31 2023 and keeping records of the debits and credits to the account. You say your accounts are all digital but at some point the funds hit an account that is capable of providing a statement, they can't go from the digital state, to an ATM withdrawal overseas, without some form of written record?. Those digital funds that you access via an ATM surely must have some form of associated record keeping or intermediary, or am I missing something here?

Talon · October 16

6 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Those digital funds that you access via an ATM surely must have some form of associated record keeping or intermediary

My digital online statement shows the ATM withdrawals and from which specific ATM terminals with dates, amounts, etc. I also keep a spreadsheet of them all with the dates and currency exchange rate that day. But I don't receive a hardcopy statement. I can easily print out the online digital statement and just hope the TRD accepts that.

Yumthai · October 16

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

I'm reposting the following because a poster said they could not differentiate between fact and option in some of the things I write but there wasn't a single acknowledgement. That usually means that those in doubt, read it and had an, "ah yes, that's right", moment and went elsewhere to try and forget!

I just want to make sure that we're all on the same page and that the above applies to everyone, not just to me.

There was, for the longest time, a notice at the top of the thread that clearly stated that the thread contained only individual opinions. That should hardly be necessary and should go without saying because the forum rules clearly say that factual statements in threads such as this, must be supported by a supportive link. Rule 5 says:

"In factual areas such as news forums and current affairs topics member content that is claimed or portrayed as a fact should be supported by a link to a relevant reputable source".

https://aseannow.com/forum_rules/

That means that everything that is written in the thread is opinion, unless there is a supportive link, does that really come as any surprise to anyone!

So what's the beef? If people don't like somebody's opinion, disagree with it, isn't that what people are supposed to do here! And if people can't separate the fact from the opinion, based on the links provided, perhaps they are over their heads trying to participate here and shouldn't.

If somebody wants to challenge statements that I portray as fact, read the link provided. If there's no link, it must be opinion, if you don't like it or have a different one, say so (if you want) or else ignore it. I'm going to make some assumptions from time to time that the simple obvious things in life are accepted as fact, without having to provide links but if somebody feels the need to see one (and I know some of you will do this relentlessly) feel free to ask for one.

This is pretty basic modus operandi. don't you think!!!

Right, we can agree that all posts are opinion unless there's a linked source.

Regarding your content, I will add that some of your opinions are written using authoritative wording that may be confusing and let the readers think it's official information.

I won't quote you here as you're a dedicated posting machine (at the point we could wonder if it's a daily job), your posts being everywhere available for readers who can judge by themselves.

chiang mai · October 16

1 minute ago, Talon said:

My digital online statement shows the ATM withdrawals and from which specific ATM terminals with dates, amounts, etc. I also keep a spreadsheet of them all with the dates and currency exchange rate that day. But I don't receive a hardcopy statement. I can easily print out the online digital statement and just hope the TRD accepts that.

The digital account that you make the ATM withdrawals from is the issue because the nature of that account determines whether the funds you withdraw/remit are assessable or not. You use the term digital, which I have taken to mean a bitcoin equivalent. If that is not correct, can you please clarify what type of account that is? That issue not withstanding, your digital online statement sounds like it might work, as long as you are able to print off history.

Presnock · October 16

Expattaxthailand.com advises that they are doing a webinar on the Canadian DTA and rental income. Plus they have several videos on other DTA's and tax situations too plus have other webinars scheduled in the future. For those interested.

chiang mai · October 16

3 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Right, we can agree that all posts are opinion unless there's a linked source.

Regarding your content, I will add that some of your opinions are written using authoritative wording that may be confusing and let the readers think it's official information.

I won't quote you here as you're a dedicated posting machine (at the point we could wonder if it's a daily job), your posts being everywhere available for readers who can judge by themselves.

We have members who want me to change my name, my writing style and now one who wants less use of authoritative confusing words. I don't believe in 18 years here I have ever asked another poster to change those things about themselves, I've simply asked them to clarify points they made. Is that asking too much of others.

If posters think that anything I post is official information, I have to fall back on forum rules, tradition and common sense. Who would take first line legal, medical or tax advice as gospel, when it's written on a social network forum! I would take first line medical advice from Sheryl and Crossy for electrical information, because I trust their track record and knowledge, anyone else I probably wouldn't.......don't other members do similar!

Lastly, no, this is not my daily job, it's a fill in activity or diversion whilst I do two other main tasks most days, the three things complement each other.

Lopburikid · October 16

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

I have been retired for all my time here.

Why have you been paying Tax since 2012? I have been on a LTR visa for the past 16 years and never paid tax on my state and military pensions, as I was not required to, until the tax law was updated last year.

chiang mai · October 16

13 minutes ago, Lopburikid said:

Why have you been paying Tax since 2012? I have been on a LTR visa for the past 16 years and never paid tax on my state and military pensions, as I was not required to, until the tax law was updated last year.

I haven't always paid tax but I still file a return. I had Thai income some years plus my wife has a business so I did some things there also.

gamb00ler · October 16

1 hour ago, Talon said:

I don't receive bank statements. It's all digital. I doubt they would accept a personal statement printout.

I assume by "all digital" you just mean your financial institution doesn't send you any paper records. I have that arrangement with my primary brokerage. If I want a statement I can download a PDF that when printed is indistinguishable from what they would send via post.

bkk6060 · October 16

From The Thaiger the owner of this site.

At 12:30 This guy says ATM and CC are not ¨currently¨ taxable. So, if if knows what he is talking about any current statements that they are in fact taxable, seem false.

Thaindrew · October 16

On 10/13/2024 at 4:20 PM, chiang mai said:

Remittances don't show up on their immediate radar either. The only time such things do come into play is when a return is queried or suspicions are raised. It's not as if TRD is sitting watching transactions flow back and forth, that's not what they do or how they operate, in the main.

remittances are part of the CRS data the TRD gets from every bank that has your Thai address listed, this is already happening.

chiang mai · October 16

8 minutes ago, Thaindrew said:

remittances are part of the CRS data the TRD gets from every bank that has your Thai address listed, this is already happening.

I have only ever glossed over the CRS requirements but there are other members who are up to speed on it...I take my lead from people like them and you on the subject of CRS.

JimGant · October 16

3 hours ago, Talon said:

How would one PROVE ATM withdrawals if they are all done through a foreign bank and none of those funds were deposited in any Thai bank?

Just keep your withdrawal slips (but, certainly, more efficient to have a statement from the financial institution where your ATM withdrawals come from). The big problem here -- assuming honest self-assessment -- is: What amount of those ATM withdrawals represent assessable, or non-assessable, income? Say your bank account, where your ATM withdrawals come from, is funded from three sources: Direct deposit from a private pension (which is assessable per DTA). A direct deposit from a govt pension (non-assessable per DTA). And monthly interest on this account (assessable per DTA). And both direct deposits, and reinvested interest income, occur at the same time -- at the end of every month. Now, we've come to no conclusion about FIFO vs LIFO (we've heard affirmatives for both options). But, this wouldn't matter in the above scenario, 'cause there's no time element to use as demarcation. So, what to do? To tell the TRD auditor that you "arbitrarily chose your govt income as the source of your ATM withdrawals" -- probably wouldn't cut it -- at least without a gratuity. So, necessary to go to proportions. If 70% of your monthly direct deposit is from your govt pension; and 30% from your private pension; and your monthly reinvested interest is 5% -- we have a proportional situation of: 65% non assessable income, and 35% assessable. So, on your Thai tax return, assuming enough assessable income to file one (or assuming you decide not to file because you don't have enough assessable income to have any taxes due) -- declared income from your yearly ATM activity is only 35% of the ATM amounts remitted.

Thaindrew · October 16

14 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

From The Thaiger the owner of this site.

At 12:30 This guy says ATM and CC are not ¨currently¨ taxable. So, if if knows what he is talking about any current statements that they are in fact taxable, seem false.

There are 2 steps - firstly any and all remittance into Thailand are assessable for tax but second, if you can show that the source of funds remitted fall outside the scope of the Thai tax system there is no tax to be paid

one area that is being interpreted different ways is in the example of when you remit funds to another person / company. Say you want to buy a condo for 5m baht, you remit to a lawyer or the developer, its still a remittance by you and so with a "remittance tax" its assessable (its not a "received by you" tax system). Property agents are though instructing people that such remittances are not taxable (which they would say to retain business), if such remittance are assessable this could have a major impact on people if they cannot prove that such funds are from a. source that fulls outside the Thai tax system. This seems to already be affecting property sales as people wait to see.

chiang mai · October 16

1 minute ago, Thaindrew said:

There are 2 steps - firstly any and all remittance into Thailand are assessable for tax but second, if you can show that the source of funds remitted fall outside the scope of the Thai tax system there is no tax to be paid

one area that is being interpreted different ways is in the example of when you remit funds to another person / company. Say you want to buy a condo for 5m baht, you remit to a lawyer or the developer, its still a remittance by you and so with a "remittance tax" its assessable (its not a "received by you" tax system). Property agents are though instructing people that such remittances are not taxable (which they would say to retain business), if such remittance are assessable this could have a major impact on people if they cannot prove that such funds are from a. source that fulls outside the Thai tax system. This seems to already be affecting property sales as people wait to see.

Nope! Not all remittances are assessible, some are exempt under terms of a DTA and some are exempt by virtue of Por 162.

chiang mai · October 16

2 minutes ago, Thaindrew said:

There are 2 steps - firstly any and all remittance into Thailand are assessable for tax but second, if you can show that the source of funds remitted fall outside the scope of the Thai tax system there is no tax to be paid

one area that is being interpreted different ways is in the example of when you remit funds to another person / company. Say you want to buy a condo for 5m baht, you remit to a lawyer or the developer, its still a remittance by you and so with a "remittance tax" its assessable (its not a "received by you" tax system). Property agents are though instructing people that such remittances are not taxable (which they would say to retain business), if such remittance are assessable this could have a major impact on people if they cannot prove that such funds are from a. source that fulls outside the Thai tax system. This seems to already be affecting property sales as people wait to see.

Agreed that remittances to third parties do not necessarily mean they are not assessible, it depends on all the usual factors associated with remittances to yourself.

Thaindrew · October 16

3 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Nope! Not all remittances are assessible, some are exempt under terms of a DTA and some are exempt by virtue of Por 162.

all are "assessable", part of the assessment is if the funds fall under a DTA, if they do they are not "taxable"

chiang mai · October 16

2 minutes ago, Thaindrew said:

all are "assessable", part of the assessment is if the funds fall under a DTA, if they do they are not "taxable"

Ummm, in strict English language terms, perhaps but in tax terms, I don't believe so. If a remittance is exempt under treaty it does not need to be assessed. In English language terms it has but again, I don't believe so in tax terms. Almost an academic debate perhaps, rather than a practical tax one.

JimGant · October 16

10 minutes ago, Thaindrew said:

all are "assessable", part of the assessment is if the funds fall under a DTA,

All are NOT assessable. The DTA dictates which income remittances are assessable -- and which are NOT.

Talon · October 16

2 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

I assume by "all digital" you just mean your financial institution doesn't send you any paper records. I have that arrangement with my primary brokerage. If I want a statement I can download a PDF that when printed is indistinguishable from what they would send via post.

Yes. Correct. Nothing to do with bitcoin or anything similar. Bank statement that is only available online. There may be a pdf available. I've never had to download any statement since for years since the account was opened.

Talon · October 16

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

a bitcoin equivalent

No, it's just a bank/stock statement that is not sent out every month. "Digital" as in only available online. I've never had to print out any of it before. I'm sure there's a way; but I'm not sure that TRD will accept it.

chiang mai · October 16

Just now, Talon said:

No, it's just a bank/stock statement that is not sent out every month. "Digital" as in only available online. I've never had to print out any of it before. I'm sure there's a way; but I'm not sure that TRD will accept it.

OK, so that's even easier, if it was Bitcoin or similar it would be difficult.

As long as you can get an online copy, that's all that matters at this stage.

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