Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[ukrules]

2 minutes ago, stat said:

A tax partner is stating that foreign ATM credit cards withdrawal are not assessable income period. Pls specify the law that says it is remittance if you believe otherwise. There is some serious doubt about if it is a remittance or not.

 

That's not quite what he said, I watched the interview yesterday just after it was uploaded.

 

He said ATM withdrawals and credit card spending are 'not remittance' and then something about it needing to be paid into a bank account if I recall - is he correct? I have no idea, but I wouldn't rely on that.

Edited June 30 by ukrules

[stat]

2 hours ago, topt said:

I don't think I have a dog in this fight.......but there is clearly confusion when a seniorish RD official has been on screen saying that they are assessable - so does the RD guy know less or more..........

There were also, as already mentioned, several gross generalisations in that interview that could suggest that particular managing partner may not be as clued up on some of the nitty gritty smaller stuff that would affect most of our readership......or he was being deliberately obtuse.........just my opinion of course.

Thai RD would like to tax it agreed. If I got loaned money from a relative and transmitted the loan to Thailand IMHO no tax is due. Same logic could apply with CC transaction.

 

There are some people here who think they know for sure but this is a grey area. Al I am saying is no one knows currently and a TRD representative stating taxable income (profit part) while a tax partner stating not taxable shows exactly that.

[ukrules]

1 minute ago, stat said:

There are some people here who think they know for sure but this is a grey area.

 

Agreed, a definite grey area.

[stat]

3 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

That's not quite what he said, I watched the interview yesterday just after it was uploaded.

 

He said ATM withdrawals and credit card spending are 'not remittance' and then something about it needing to be paid into a bank account if I recall - is he correct? I have no idea, but I wouldn't rely on that.

Where do you see the discrepancy? If it is not remitted it is not taxable in 2024. That is what he has stated IMHO.

[ukrules]

4 minutes ago, stat said:

Where do you see the discrepancy? If it is not remitted it is not taxable in 2024. That is what he has stated IMHO.

The discrepancy is in the definition of the word 'remitted' - he says it's not remitted - I think it is.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd love them to issue a clarification giving us the green light to spend as much as we want on credit cards and have unlimited tax free ATM withdrawals - it would be an easy way out - but I have a feeling that's never going to happen.

Edited June 30 by ukrules

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, stat said:

Where do you see the discrepancy? If it is not remitted it is not taxable in 2024. That is what he has stated IMHO.

Words game are unhelpful!

 

If the funds were sent from A to B they were remitted, ergo the funds are a remittance. The way in which the funds are sent is not segregated by the type of mechanism or vehicle, in the Revenue Code.

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/remitted

 

Whether or not the remittance is assessable may well be another topic, subject to all the rules we already understand that govern assessable income and exempt remittances.

 

What I wrote earlier is that it doesn't pass my sniff test and still doesn't, apparently it doesn't pass that of other either. We will no doubt find out in due course.

 

 

 

[stat]

14 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Words game are unhelpful!

 

If the funds were sent from A to B they were remitted, ergo the funds are a remittance. The way in which the funds are sent is not segregated by the type of mechanism or vehicle, in the Revenue Code.

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/remitted

 

Whether or not the remittance is assessable may well be another topic, subject to all the rules we already understand that govern assessable income and exempt remittances.

 

What I wrote earlier is that it doesn't pass my sniff test and still doesn't, apparently it doesn't pass that of other either. We will no doubt find out in due course.

 

 

 

An english dictionary does not help at all as I am sure the tax code in Thailand is not written in Thai.

 

"If the funds were sent from A to B they were remitted, ergo the funds are a remittance." this is wrong on many levels and is a simplification.

Edited June 30 by stat

[jayboy]

14 minutes ago, stat said:

Pls specify the law that says it is remittance if you believe otherwise.

 

I have a foreign credit card and I have recently used it to purchase a return air ticket from Bangkok to Singapore.I shall probably use the same card for my hotel as well.The cost will be debited next month to my foreign bank account.That account is not funded by current earnings and is made up entirely of savings made prior to the end of last year.If I complete a Thai tax return for 2024 - and I might not - should I include payment of the costs of my trip as assessable income? I am not looking to use the card as a means of avoiding Thai tax, and generally speaking such expenditure is a very small element of my total expenditure in Thailand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stat]

1 minute ago, jayboy said:

 

I have a foreign credit card and I have recently used it to purchase a return air ticket from Bangkok to Singapore.I shall probably use the same card for my hotel as well.The cost will be debited next month to my foreign bank account.That account is not funded by current earnings and is made up entirely of savings made prior to the end of last year.If I complete a Thai tax return for 2024 - and I might not - should I include payment of the costs of my trip as assessable income? I am not looking to use the card as a means of avoiding Thai tax, and generally speaking such expenditure is a very small element of my total expenditure in Thailand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No one knows for sure, besides some people who claim to know. My guess is no.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, stat said:

An english dictionary does not help at all as I am sure the tax code in Thailand is not written in Thai.

 

"If the funds were sent from A to B they were remitted, ergo the funds are a remittance." this is wrong on many levels and is a simplification.

I'm pretty certain it is!

 

Anyway, I was quoting YOU, not the tax code!

 

"If it is not remitted it is not taxable in 2024".

[stat]

22 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm pretty certain it is!

 

Anyway, I was quoting YOU, not the tax code!

 

"If it is not remitted it is not taxable in 2024".

Fund transfer from Mr A in England to Mr B. in Thailand not a remittance and not taxable.

 

"If it is not remitted it is not taxable in 2024" what is wrong with this statement?

[Mike Lister]

19 hours ago, stat said:

Fund transfer from Mr A in England to Mr B. in Thailand not a remittance and not taxable.

 

"If it is not remitted it is not taxable in 2024" what is wrong with this statement?

"If it is not remitted it is not taxable in 2024"  That's your quote.

 

I'm not playing your word games,

[OJAS]

2 hours ago, stat said:

Fund transfer from Mr A in England to Mr B. in Thailand not a remittance and not taxable.

 

In that case what word would you use to describe the funds transfers which Mr OJAS in England regularly makes to Mr OJAS in Thailand via Mr Wise, which include taxable assessable income (in the form of the UK State Pension since this is not covered by the UK/Thailand DTA)?

 

I look forward with bated breath to being enlightened by your Solomon-esque wisdom on this clearly crucially vital point for me personally.

 

[Mike Lister]

4 hours ago, OJAS said:

 

In that case what word would you use to describe the funds transfers which Mr OJAS in England regularly makes to Mr OJAS in Thailand via Mr Wise, which include taxable assessable income (in the form of the UK State Pension since this is not covered by the UK/Thailand DTA)?

 

I look forward with bated breath to being enlightened by your Solomon-esque wisdom on this clearly crucially vital point for me personally.

 

He wants you to say, "gifted", tell him to go away also.

[Henryford]

On 6/30/2024 at 8:28 PM, jayboy said:

 

I have a foreign credit card and I have recently used it to purchase a return air ticket from Bangkok to Singapore.I shall probably use the same card for my hotel as well.The cost will be debited next month to my foreign bank account.That account is not funded by current earnings and is made up entirely of savings made prior to the end of last year.If I complete a Thai tax return for 2024 - and I might not - should I include payment of the costs of my trip as assessable income? I am not looking to use the card as a means of avoiding Thai tax, and generally speaking such expenditure is a very small element of my total expenditure in Thailand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another example might be the purchase of an expensive TV or motorcycle say 100,000 baht. There are two ways to pay for it.

A) Remit the cash to my thai bank and pay in cash here

B) Pay on my UK credit card, which is paid off in the UK, and the cash never reaches Thailand.

Is A taxable but not B?

If that is true no one would ever buy something like this in cash. It could cost upto 35% more.

Edited July 2 by Henryford

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, Henryford said:

 

Another example might be the purchase of an expensive TV or motorcycle say 100,000 baht. There are two ways to pay for it.

A) Remit the cash to my thai bank and pay in cash here

B) Pay on my UK credit card, which is paid off in the UK, and the cash never reaches Thailand.

Is A taxable but not B?

If that is true no one would ever buy something like this in cash. It could cost upto 35% more.

The contract is made when you agree the purchase in Thailand, hand over you credit card and and the merchant provides the goods or services you agreed to buy. That settlement is made later elsewhere is not relevant. It is not correct to say the cash never reaches Thailand, the merchant is paid is he not.

[Henryford]

52 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The contract is made when you agree the purchase in Thailand, hand over you credit card and and the merchant provides the goods or services you agreed to buy. That settlement is made later elsewhere is not relevant. It is not correct to say the cash never reaches Thailand, the merchant is paid is he not.

 

I was merely raising the question, who knows. Is there a line on the thai tax return to show all purchases made via a foreign credit card?

[4myr]

so i’ve asked 3 tax consultants on a quote to help me do a tax filing on tax exempted income according to the DTA.

 

One referred me to their paid consultancy service without even looking briefly into the case. One said to come back end of this year when they expect RD will come with an updated PD90 form. They expect that this form will be provided with fill in details regarding tax credits and tax exemptions. Hmm.. The third one was more realistic at least to me. Needs to speak coming months with RD on their interpretation of tax treaties related to his customers’ cases. Then he can base his tax filing assessments. He confirmed my worries eg RD have their own interpretations of tax treaties, appeals wrt treaties are a waste of time

[Mike Lister]

54 minutes ago, Henryford said:

 

I was merely raising the question, who knows. Is there a line on the thai tax return to show all purchases made via a foreign credit card?

Nope, at this stage we believe any transactions to be only remitted funds, but of course, not everyone agrees, albeit the TRD did say they were, in one of the many videos.

[JackGats]

On 6/26/2024 at 3:05 AM, dinga said:

....

 

Everyday I drive past what had previously been vacant beachfront land - very, very valuable beachfront land.  Some time ago, these blocks were sparcely planted with a variety of plants  -  cassave; coconuts; gum trees; mangos etc.  Those plants being given minimal attention post planting - with the obvious purpose being for the owners to eliminate the LBT liability on land that is really being held for capital appreciation. 

...

 

          

Ah-ah that's why they've been planting banana trees in the vacant plot next to View Talay 6 in Pattaya.

[Lorry]

On 6/30/2024 at 8:26 PM, stat said:

An english dictionary does not help at all as I am sure the tax code in Thailand is not written in Thai.

In Thai the order says นำเงินเข้ามา

Ask some Thais what this might possibly mean - in conversational Thai and in legalese. 

To make it not sound out of context, ask them what is

นำเงินเข้ามาประเทศไทย

Then you have the whole sentence. 

 

Edited July 2 by Lorry

[jayboy]

4 hours ago, Henryford said:

A) Remit the cash to my thai bank and pay in cash here

 

Taxable - assuming the transmitted cash was not from savings incurred prior to 31.12.2023.If the latter then not taxable - but be sure to maintain records.

 

4 hours ago, Henryford said:

B) Pay on my UK credit card, which is paid off in the UK, and the cash never reaches Thailand.

 

Theoretically taxable if you are paying off with current income.If you are using the same bank as the one you make transfers to Thailand, that tightens the noose a little.

 

In practice of course no entirely sane person would declare B) on a Thai income tax return.

[JackGats]

I see in order to avoid getting skinned many here are planning to stay less than 180 days in Thailand. I assume they feel ok doing so only because they're already getting taxed "back home". 

 

If your income or capital gains are getting taxed nowhere outside Thailand however, such a tax avoidance scheme doesn't seem sustainable, all the more so because of CRS.

 

As we know banks "back home" have been closing accounts unless a Thai TIN is provided. Providing one was no big deal. But Thailand is now going to get CRS reports about your overseas accounts although under Thai law you aren't a tax resident in Thailand. How long before Thailand replies "Wait a minute, why are you sending us CRS reports about this guy? He is no tax resident of Thailand!"

 

I see nothing but trouble here.

[ukrules]

36 minutes ago, JackGats said:

I see in order to avoid getting skinned many here are planning to stay less than 180 days in Thailand. I assume they feel ok doing so only because they're already getting taxed "back home". 

 

No, you miss the point entirely.

 

If you're not tax resident and have no Thai income then that's it - there is no tax to pay - doesn't matter if you paid any tax elsewhere, many countries don't tax you at all under the right circumstances and this is all above board. and legal.

 

You need to be prepared to put in some legwork every few years and move around a bit to take thi to the extreme - which could be worth it but it would depend on the amount.

[stat]

19 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

"If it is not remitted it is not taxable in 2024"  That's your quote.

 

I'm not playing your word games, go away.

So come again what is wrong with the statement. The statement is correct.

 

Who do you think you are asking other forum members to go away?

[stat]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Nope, at this stage we believe any transactions to be only remitted funds, but of course, not everyone agrees, albeit the TRD did say they were, in one of the many videos.

Who is we in this context? Pluralis ma...?

[stat]

2 hours ago, JackGats said:

I see in order to avoid getting skinned many here are planning to stay less than 180 days in Thailand. I assume they feel ok doing so only because they're already getting taxed "back home". 

 

If your income or capital gains are getting taxed nowhere outside Thailand however, such a tax avoidance scheme doesn't seem sustainable, all the more so because of CRS.

 

As we know banks "back home" have been closing accounts unless a Thai TIN is provided. Providing one was no big deal. But Thailand is now going to get CRS reports about your overseas accounts although under Thai law you aren't a tax resident in Thailand. How long before Thailand replies "Wait a minute, why are you sending us CRS reports about this guy? He is no tax resident of Thailand!"

 

I see nothing but trouble here.

Most banks back off if you explain to them that so far TH did not enforce a TIN on you if you did not have a working permit. The country to which a crs report is send is determinded by your "tax residence" at the end of the year. However TH and many other countries demand 180 days plus for a tax residence while for the bank a legal residence is considered a "tax residence".

[Rimmer]

inflammatory posts removed

[jwest10]

Hi Everyone

Many thanks in particular to Mike Lister and there are others and not replying to any particular post.
Yes, we have friends who know someone who works in the local tax office and they know nothing about this prospective income tax situation and yes it is not surprising as I stress it still has to hit the Statute Book as yet.
There were a few postings and the forms in Thai  but  it has not been converted to an English edition as yet I fully understand the allowances under the tax system and the only query is the 60k allowance for my wife who does not work (she does not need to register then but I can claim her 60k right?)

Also, have my state pension paid directly to my Thai account but I have ordinary savings in my account in the UK  which has gone down substantially, and use Wise to transfer but for living expenses and there are some other small pension monies but some ordinary savings.
Could this be taxed as I have stated nothing as yet on the Statute Book and my guess well into the end of the year if not later?

Just in passing and I know different departments and again we are not sure if these would work together but cut to the chase and went in to do my 90-day reporting and thought that they might ask me about this income tax issue but no nothing and in and out in literally 2 minutes.
One final point is that on my Internet banking just recently noticed an HM Tax office option in red.

Just trying to help out and to give information again many thanks Mike Lister and others.

I also have kept in touch with a tax advisor for ex-pats with the video recently made and told me would keep posted but seemed to think much later on in the year if at all!!!
 

Just sharing my recent experiences and hope helpfull.

Sincerely 
John West
TC all
 

 

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Hi Everyone

Many thanks in particular to Mike Lister and there are others and not replying to any particular post.
Yes, we have friends who know someone who works in the local tax office and they know nothing about this prospective income tax situation and yes it is not surprising as I stress it still has to hit the Statute Book as yet.
There were a few postings and the forms in Thai  but  it has not been converted to an English edition as yet I fully understand the allowances under the tax system and the only query is the 60k allowance for my wife who does not work (she does not need to register then but I can claim her 60k right?)

Also, have my state pension paid directly to my Thai account but I have ordinary savings in my account in the UK  which has gone down substantially, and use Wise to transfer but for living expenses and there are some other small pension monies but some ordinary savings.
Could this be taxed as I have stated nothing as yet on the Statute Book and my guess well into the end of the year if not later?

Just in passing and I know different departments and again we are not sure if these would work together but cut to the chase and went in to do my 90-day reporting and thought that they might ask me about this income tax issue but no nothing and in and out in literally 2 minutes.
One final point is that on my Internet banking just recently noticed an HM Tax office option in red.

Just trying to help out and to give information again many thanks Mike Lister and others.

I also have kept in touch with a tax advisor for ex-pats with the video recently made and told me would keep posted but seemed to think much later on in the year if at all!!!
 

Just sharing my recent experiences and hope helpfull.

Sincerely 
John West
TC all
 

 

You can claim your wife's Personal Allowance of 60k, only if you file a joint return.

 

Your UK savings are not at risk, either now or in the future, because they are savings and not income.