Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[oldcpu]

23 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Just because you may have to list it doesn’t mean it should be assessed for tax

 

I don't know the details of Thai tax regulations, and obviously this is discussion is about Thai taxation.

 

Still ... to provide an illustration which may NOT be applicable. ..

 

I am a non-resident to Canada. Still, I have to file an income tax return to Canada every year (as I obtain pension income from Canada) and Canada wants to know ALL of my foreign income on that tax return, every last cent ! Even thou its not taxable by Canada. They still want to know about it.  They want that as they determine my tax rate (for my Canadian pension) based on my total global income.   And as a non-resident to Canada I can NOT apply most Canadian deductions to my global income on the Canadian tax form to my income from outside of Canada - but rather my total global income is used to 'make' me pay more tax on my Canadian income to Canada. ....

 

So when it comes to a foreigner resident to Thailand, it would not surprise me if Thailand may want to know about ALL of my foreign income, even if there is no Thai tax on that income.  But rather it could be used by Thailand (pure speculation on my part) to assess my overall tax rate for any Thai income I might have (such as Thailand interest from the Thai banks or Thai bonds or other).

 

I am not saying that is the case - but I can see that sort of logic could be applied to income which while not taxable, can still be used to assess one's tax rate for other different local Thai income that IS taxable.

 

Hence like others I am watching to see how this 'plays out'.  While I hope for the best, I want to be prepared for the less pleasant.

.

Edited August 17 by oldcpu

[sometimewoodworker]

18 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

So when it comes to a foreigner resident to Thailand, it would not surprise me if Thailand may want to know about ALL of my foreign income, even if there is no Thai tax on that income.  But rather it could be used by Thailand (pure speculation on my part) to assess my overall tax rate for any Thai income I might have (such as Thailand interest from the Thai banks or Thai bonds or other).

 

I am not saying that is the case - but I can see that sort of logic could be applied to income which while not taxable, can still be used to assess one's tax rate for other different local Thai income that IS taxable.

 

You need a conversion with a professional tax advisor 

[Presnock]

42 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You quoted my post that informed you that I had got a three hundred baht refund. Is that too little?

absolutely!  I thought that was a  previous year and that this year you might have more.   But for yuour foreign income remitted, that is exempted for the ten years.  Enjoy  and hope that the new govt doesn't decide to cut that out.  regards.

[topt]

2 hours ago, Phulublub said:

This (appears) to go directly against the HMRC website - as long as you have declared yourself non-resident for tax.  Well worth investigating as you may be owed a considerable sum on overpayments.

This has been discussed before in one of the many long threads and I think it is somewhat misleading.

Above that point it says this - 

Quote

If you’re eligible for a Personal Allowance you pay Income Tax on your income above that amount. Otherwise, you pay tax on all your income.

The country where you live might tax you on your UK income. If it has a ‘double-taxation agreement’ with the UK, you can claim tax relief in the UK to avoid being taxed twice.

I think the phrase you quoted is because the payments are made gross and no tax is deducted before payment. They may also be expecting it to be taxed wherever you are resident hence the word "usually"........(pure guess )

 

I found this but not sure how old it is - https://taxvol.org.uk/index.php/hrf_faq/is-my-state-pension-taxable/

Quote

s my State Pension taxable?

Yes, it is. However, there is no mechanism to deduct tax due at source so those pensioners with occupational pensions have their personal tax allowance reduced by the amount of the State Pension so that the tax due on both sources is all deducted from the occupational pension.

If your State Pension exceeds your personal tax allowance but you do not have any other source of income, then HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) will collect the tax in a lump sum through another method. 

 

At the end of the day if it is pension income coming out of the UK and the overall figure is above the PA and recorded on the tax form you will pay tax on it as other posters have confirmed. 

 

Repayments - IMHO zero chance 

[oldcpu]

4 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You need a conversion with a professional tax advisor 

 

It may come to that in Thailand, but in all due honesty, I do not think now is the time.

 

I do have experience with both accountants (to do income tax) and tax advisors, over the course of my lifetime.  

 

I once had a tax advisor/accountant do my taxes for me in Canada, and it was a big mistake on my part. I had a number of questions/queries back from Revenue Canada about my tax return causing me (and the tax advisor/accountant) extra work (and cost me extra money to be paid to Revenue Canada).  Further the tax/advisor accountant wanted to be paid for their extra fixing what I considered 'their screw up'.   In subsequent years I smartened up and did my Canadian tax returns all myself - and it went fine with Revenue Canada from then on.

 

When I worked in Germany, not understanding German language well, I hired a tax accountant/advisor for the 1st six years I worked there (4 years as a company employee and then two years as a freelancer). But in the 7th year I switched to be an employee of a European government run organization and from then on, my wife and I did our own tax returns.

 

When it comes to Thailand, the situation at present, is shall I say ... dynamic?  I have watched videos and read articles of different so called "tax advisors" and they do NOT all agree on the details as to the current implications. Why is that?  I think that they themselves simply do not know at present how this will 'pan out'. The situation is still in flux. 

 

Further, thinking about my situation, most tax advisors are experts in maybe one or two countries (and maybe one or two continents), but not in multiple continents and not multiple national and international pension/income sources such as I have.  Hence I have instead spent the time learning what I have on taxes and try to follow the rules best possible.

 

So until the current Thai taxation requirements, ...  given the influx (?) interpretations, ..  settle down, I think I will stick to the most prudent method forward that I see. And at present that is NOT a professional tax advisor for me.

[oldcpu]

4 hours ago, Presnock said:

well I googled tax identification: thai revenue department and got a revenue dept page and it mentions several times the ID number/alien too I am not sure what ID number other than the pink one  that aliens get.  Why not just take the pink id card to your local revenue department office and ask them if that suffices instead of not accepting what the page says about getting a tax id number and not needing one if you have the (sorry) it didn't say pink ID card number.

 

I googled, and could find no reference to alien (foreigner) ID # being ok as a Thai tax ID without first having Revenue department 'making it so'.  BUT I tend to agree that does not mean the Pink-ID card # can not be used by some method as a Thai Tax ID.

 

I also (when googling) did NOT find an 'official' Thai government page on the "Pink ID" for foreigners.  There are lots of 'purported' legal advisor pages (on the Pink-ID), but no government page that I could find.

 

EDIT: One government page I did find does refer to the Pink-ID as an identity card:

https://www.dopa.go.th/public_service/service_guide24/view472

 

That is interesting given:

 

The Pink-ID card itself is very clear on the back, where in item-1 on the back it states (my English translation) "This card is not an identification card", which reads to be contradictory as on the front page on the card at the very stop it translates to "Identification card for people without the nationality"  .... and in a lower line:  "Foreigners entering the country".  

 

In my case, to get the card I had to be registered in a 'house document'.  In my case this meant registered in a 'Yellow book' for the condominium unit that I own.  I have read that foreigners who already have a Thai tax ID can apply for a 'Pink-ID' but I do not know that is accurate.

 

Still given the card itself on one hand says (on the front) its an ID card, and then on the back says "This card is not an identification card", ... my view is this is not exactly a consistent description on the card.  

 

So when it comes to taxes, and tax-IDs, it would be nice to have a consistent description. Is this? or is this not? an ID card?

 

Still - as noted already, I know (from my experience) if one having never (yet) submitted a Thai tax return, if one then tries to  tries to use their Thai Pink-ID # in an online Thai taxation submission, it will not work. The Pink-ID # is not accepted (online) by the Revenue Department for an online tax return.

 

And I also know (from my wife on the phone with a local Thai RD official) that a Pink-ID # has to be 'activated' to be used as a Thai tax ID # (but my wife was talking to him, so possibly he was referring to a online tax submission and that detail was lost by my wife).

 

I suspect that if one submitted a Thai Tax return for a specific Thai tax year (by postal mail ?? hand carrying it to the local Thai tax office ? ), using the Pink-ID number in the place of the Thai tax ID, that the tax submission would not be immediately rejected.  I suspect instead if at the local RD office, one would instead be asked to sit down for a couple of hours at the local revenue department while the Thai officials scratched their head (and phoned Bangkok) on how to process the tax return?? But that's my speculation.

 

Anyway - I have satisfied myself that I can, for my foreign requirements, (where I have found it necessary to provide a Thai tax ID to financial institutions in Canada) that providing my Pink-ID # is acceptable to foreign institutions as a Thai Tax ID (for it could very well be such - and I further note that I have applied for the Thai tax ID where a copy of my Pink-ID was one of the documents I submitted in the application).

 

And I will continue to watch to see how this 'in-flux' taxation situation for resident foreigners pays out.

1.  It may just go away (and can be ignored by all) ? 

2.  It may (like I hope) not be something those on an LTR visa need watch and can be ignored (by LTR visa holders). 

3.  It may require tax returns from some foreigner residents (hopefully not given DTAs)

4.  ...  and it may be a nightmare for some with "Thai tax clearance certificates" making a comeback for annual permission to stay in Thailand renewals and for departures (of those on long stay visas) from Thailand (HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY UNLIKELY in my opinion that there will be a return to 'tax clearance certificates).

 

I note that the present mood in Thailand is to attract foreigners to the country (with the new visa laws) and so I tend to think the concern that foreigners who reside >180 days need to be taxed on income, could be softened or interpreted by Thailand in a way with far far less to hopefully no impact. Time will tell.

 

Possibly I am far too optimistic there.

Edited August 17 by oldcpu

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

absolutely!  I thought that was a  previous year and that this year you might have more.   But for yuour foreign income remitted, that is exempted for the ten years.  Enjoy  and hope that the new govt doesn't decide to cut that out.  regards.

I had just paid 300+ in tax I got it all back.

 

i find it extremely to understand what information you are trying to get? Or was it that you just wanted to vent?

either works but it would be helpful if you were more clear.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

When it comes to Thailand, the situation at present, is shall I say ... dynamic? 

I totally disagree. There are many people who don’t understand the regulations however there has been only a tiny change in the interpretation of the rules.

The problem this has caused is that a few hundred thousand people, many quite articulate, now have to have a crash course in understanding tax regulations. Of the thousands those with considerable income have probably taken advice and actions (I started in October 2023). There are many, probably the majority, who have  difficulties in rapidly learning new skills or trying to understand them.

 

So is the situation dynamic? In my opinion not at all. The last official act was in November, I think, and it declared all pre 2024 income and savings exempt

[chiang mai]

12 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I totally disagree. There are many people who don’t understand the regulations however there has been only a tiny change in the interpretation of the rules.

The problem this has caused is that a few hundred thousand people, many quite articulate, now have to have a crash course in understanding tax regulations. Of the thousands those with considerable income have probably taken advice and actions (I started in October 2023). There are many, probably the majority, who have  difficulties in rapidly learning new skills or trying to understand them.

 

So is the situation dynamic? In my opinion not at all. The last official act was in November, I think, and it declared all pre 2024 income and savings exempt

I agree, what we've seen from the foreign community over the past eight months regarding the change to Thai tax rules has been a massive overreaction, shock and disbelief but totally disproportionate to the issue.

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I totally disagree. There are many people who don’t understand the regulations however there has been only a tiny change in the interpretation of the rules.

 

 

Its not just dynamic in the interpretation ... but also in the expected means of enforcement ... and the expected implementation to some Visas.

 

For example, look no further than the Thai LTR visa where there is disagreement as to whether it provides full tax exemption from income coming into the country.

 

Some legal advisors claim it ONLY provides exemption to LTR visa holders if the money is brought into Thailand in the SAME year it is earned. They claim income from subsequent years (after 1-Jan-2024) will be taxed if not brought into Thailand in the same year of earning.  Other legal advisors say it does not matter - its all tax exempt.  There is a CLEAR disagreement by the supposed legal experts (different legal organisations on that).

 

As to enforcement? There is no agreement on that as well.  Will this be another Thai law that a blind eye is turned?

 

The requirement to have a Thai tax clearance certificate when leaving Thailand is STILL ON the Thai books. There is ZERO enforcement.  Taxation rules could go the same way.

 

We will CLEARLY have to agree to disagree on this.

.

Edited August 17 by oldcpu

[sometimewoodworker]

Lots of pointless running around like a headless chicken doesn’t make it dynamic. Useless debate on things people don’t know doesn’t make it dynamic.

[oldcpu]

2 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Lots of pointless running around like a headless chicken doesn’t make it dynamic. Useless debate on things people don’t know doesn’t make it dynamic.

Tell that to the tax advisors who disagree.

[KhunHeineken]

15 hours ago, OJAS said:

 

Couldn't care less personally as I ain't an Aussie.

 

But you are a foreigner living in Thailand for over 180 days in a calendar year.  The tax man cometh. 

[Ricardo]

11 hours ago, oldcpu said:

Tell that to the tax advisors who disagree.

 

Of course they might just be partly-motivated, by the fees they can generate from the current confusion & worry, a cynic might say !  

 

We must just wait & see how things pan out. And meanwhile try to take a cautious posture. 

Edited August 18 by Ricardo

[chiang mai]

It's fascinating to watch people's reactions to all of this.

 

- Tax advisors are stirring it up, just to make fees.

- Foreigners are being targeted because they want money

- A few AN posters are just stirring it up for clicks

- It will all be cancelled by the next government

- It will die a silent death and the status quo will be maintained

- I'm leaving/already left

- Devising devious ways to evade paying tax

 

There's hope upon hope that this is all just a bad dream when the simplest and most likely answer is that the tax law has been changed and we now have to file tax returns. For most people there will be little or no impact but there's no point doing the math just yet because it's never going to happen/I'll find a way out before it does! 

 

:))

 

 

 

 

[redwood1]

Here is some thing to think about...

 

Does anyone think Thaksin who is just about the biggest Tax cheat in Thailands history will be concerned with strong arming a few baht out of retired expats?

 

Now that would be funny trying to get retirees on small pensions to pay up when a billionaire refuses to pay up....

 

The only way to save face would be to just forget the whole thing a never mention taxes again...

[dinga]

"IN THE RACE OF LIFE, ALWAYS BACK SELF-INTEREST AS YOU CAN BE SURE IT'S HAVING A RED-HOT GO"

 

Prediction:  With the new (puppet) PM, the proposed/mooted Tax changes are DOA [Dead on Arrival]  -  none will ever happen due to powerful Thai interests.

 

Rest easy fellow farang hand-wringers!!!

[redwood1]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

It's fascinating to watch people's reactions to all of this.

 

- Tax advisors are stirring it up, just to make fees.

- Foreigners are being targeted because they want money

- A few AN posters are just stirring it up for clicks

- It will all be cancelled by the next government

- It will die a silent death and the status quo will be maintained

- I'm leaving/already left

- Devising devious ways to evade paying tax

 

There's hope upon hope that this is all just a bad dream when the simplest and most likely answer is that the tax law has been changed and we now have to file tax returns. For most people there will be little or no impact but there's no point doing the math just yet because it's never going to happen/I'll find a way out before it does! 

 

:))

 

 

 

 

 

 

Want to pay taxes for absolutely no reason.....Have at it Sir.....

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 hour ago, dinga said:

"IN THE RACE OF LIFE, ALWAYS BACK SELF-INTEREST AS YOU CAN BE SURE IT'S HAVING A RED-HOT GO"

 

Prediction:  With the new (puppet) PM, the proposed/mooted Tax changes are DOA [Dead on Arrival]  -  none will ever happen due to powerful Thai interests.

 

Rest easy fellow farang hand-wringers!!!

I agree - the new Thaksin Govt has already canned the 10K Handout. I reckon they will just quietly let this one fade away (like when they stopped enforcing TM30s for short overnight trips).  Either way I will be happy to pay any taxes above VAT when I get something in return (Residency?) - until then I will be happy to be like the 30+million Thais who do not lodge a tax return and never have in their entire life. 

[topt]

3 hours ago, dinga said:

"IN THE RACE OF LIFE, ALWAYS BACK SELF-INTEREST AS YOU CAN BE SURE IT'S HAVING A RED-HOT GO"

 

Prediction:  With the new (puppet) PM, the proposed/mooted Tax changes are DOA [Dead on Arrival]  -  none will ever happen due to powerful Thai interests.

 

Rest easy fellow farang hand-wringers!!!

 

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I agree - the new Thaksin Govt has already canned the 10K Handout. I reckon they will just quietly let this one fade away (like when they stopped enforcing TM30s for short overnight trips).  Either way I will be happy to pay any taxes above VAT when I get something in return (Residency?) - until then I will be happy to be like the 30+million Thais who do not lodge a tax return and never have in their entire life. 

 

So should be no problem to close all the tax threads until some new "official" news appears...........

Unfortunately not a snowball  in hell's chance ............

[bkk6060]

I bet the new PM has no idea about any of this and probaly won´t care.

I agree do nothing.

[dinga]

16 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

I bet the new PM has no idea about any of this and probaly won´t care.

I agree do nothing.

Very likely - but it doesn't matter what she knows, Daddy is The Man - and no way in hell would he want taxes on (a) Remittances to Thailand, otherwise than in the same year as earnt; or (b) World Wide income. 

[redwood1]

21 minutes ago, dinga said:

Very likely - but it doesn't matter what she knows, Daddy is The Man - and no way in hell would he want taxes on (a) Remittances to Thailand, otherwise than in the same year as earnt; or (b) World Wide income. 

 

Yep...No telling how many 100s of millions of dollars Thaksin  has been moving in and out of Thailand for many a year now....He has shown very clearly were he stands on following any rules that would tax his wealth....

 

And now that the big dog is in charge again...You can be sure he will not support any tax on income....Especially if it involves his income...

[UKresonant]

It certainly would be good if the 2023 memo on the following year rule reinterpretation  (or even if they made it year before last, treated as saving) was withdrawn. Anything I would be remitting often has already been taxed in the UK, and it's just going to be a big paperwork and time wasting exercise, and the need to keep a years double tax money as a float.  (I'm not there all the time)

 

But reverting the 2023 memo still may not mean no tax, they now have the Tech in place to enforce the 2022-23 situation, and it's unlikely that would change. If your center of vital interest is in Thailand, the  potential for 'in year' ongoing Enforced Tax liability would not change most likely.  The one year that I may have been Thai tax resident was cautiously funded from prior year!

 

[Also hoping the Global Tax thing does not come, it would  kinda like Mosquito repellent for there, for many]

 

 

 

[stat]

On 8/16/2024 at 5:06 PM, 4myr said:

i want to share this video with you. The question and answer starting at 1.52.30 is telling.

 

The American advisor having offices in SE Asia said that it can take years before Thai RD have put in place the working procedures in place to make it happen. Earlier in this video he told that his Bangkok office is discussing with Thai RD about one tax credit case for a client for 15 months and the case is still not resolved. On the other hand in his answer he said that the clearest regulations are the double tax treaties, because Thai RD have to adhere to these. Can you imagine - 15 months about a tax credit from a DTA, which is supposed to be the clearest regulation. 

From a western perspective I agree it would take years to implement rules and regulations that could be upheld in a law suit in a western court. From a thai perspective it could be done instantly as it is to the discretion of the tax officer to interpret the missing rules. If you do not like somchai decission you could always go to the thai courts.

 

As Troubleandgrumpy mentioned several times TiT they do things different here.

[JackGats]

23 minutes ago, UKresonant said:

[...]

 

But reverting the 2023 memo still may not mean no tax, they now have the Tech in place to enforce the 2022-23 situation, and it's unlikely that would change. If your center of vital interest is in Thailand, the  potential for 'in year' ongoing Enforced Tax liability would not change most likely.  The one year that I may have been Thai tax resident was cautiously funded from prior year!

 

[Also hoping the Global Tax thing does not come, it would  kinda like Mosquito repellent for there, for many]

 

 

 

Now what is this "center of vital interest in Thailand" thing? I thought the Thais made it clear they were going by the 180-day rule.

[redwood1]

32 minutes ago, JackGats said:

Now what is this "center of vital interest in Thailand" thing? I thought the Thais made it clear they were going by the 180-day rule.

 

I think  "center of vital interest" is a classic Thai definition...Because it can mean what ever the person reading it wants it to mean.....For some one they like it might mean 5000 days and for someone they dont like it might mean 50 days......

 

Flexible definitions can come in very handy to the right people....

[OJAS]

19 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

But you are a foreigner living in Thailand for over 180 days in a calendar year.  The tax man cometh. 

 

My concern as a Brit is more with what the UK/TH has to say, not the AU/TH one we were specifically discussing!

 

Another one for the Ignore list, I think.

 

Edited August 18 by OJAS

[UKresonant]

4 hours ago, JackGats said:

Now what is this "center of vital interest in Thailand" thing? I thought the Thais made it clear they were going by the 180-day rule.

They are using the 180 day rule. It was the fiscal domicile, article 4 of a DTA (e.g.UK / TH), centre of vital interest. I was referring to. 

[roobaa01]

Good day

 

Now the new prime ministeress has been installed and as it looks like the investors community is in favor with trust as the THB strengthened. Thereto the THB 10k digital wallet waste to be skipped I think also the income tax matter will be disappear in the drawer and all excitement was a waste .

 

Wbr

Roobaa01