Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[chiang mai]

TRD to Foreigner: Sorry to trouble you but we see from looking at our banks and merchants data that you've been making frequent credit card payment transactions in Thailand, using a credit card from a foreign bank and the amounts are not small. We checked with Immi and it seems you were tax resident in Thailand during the year and have been so for several years. Since a credit card transaction of that nature represents potentially assessable income in Thailand, we wonder if you should have filed a Thai tax return but overlooked it, can you please clarify?

 

Foreigner to TRD: All good here, overseas money was pre 12/31/12 savings so not assessable here.

 

TRD to Foreigner: Cool, would you mind coming into our offices next week to meet with us and bringing the relevant statements/paperwork with you so we can confirm your assessment is accurate?  Thanks, see you Wednesday at 10am.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

2 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

The list of accounts they've withheld interest is not comprehensive of tax residents holding accounts not bearing interests.

 

I assume sharing a systemic list of accounts transactions is against data privacy.

Very True, but I edited my post to show how they could simply pull a list together of all incoming transactions from any bank 

 

Pretty sure that the Banks have the right (Obligation) to share account transactions with the Tax Department.

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Very True, but I edited my post to show how they could simply pull a list together of all incoming transactions from any bank 

 

Pretty sure that the Banks have the right to share account transactions with the Tax Department.

Plus I don't think any list supplied by the banks, must be all inclusive of everyone and all accounts, it just needs to contain certain classes, types or categories of account..

[Yumthai]

4 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Very True, but I edited my post to show how they could simply pull a list together of all incoming transactions from any bank 

There's indeed no issue to gather and process information, rather the means and will to implement things in the field which is clearly inconsistent in Thailand.

 

4 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Pretty sure that the Banks have the right to share account transactions with the Tax Department.

My point is "systematically", they certainly can get a deep access to individual bank accounts with a legal reason. Is Thailand North Korea yet?

[Mike Teavee]

Anyways, I've just pulled the trigger on sending another £3,000 across (came out at 131,443.85 THB) so I'll be c130,000 over my TEDA which means a tax bill of c6,500 - after offsetting the interest withheld from my savings account (c8,000 THB) I should be roughly Tax neutral.

 

For any guys looking to send money over from the UK, I expect the rate to go up now... It always does just after I send some money 😞 

 

Joking aside, I was happy with 43.81 (after Wise fees).

[black tabby12345]

No clear announcement about the expat tax things.

Stop worrying.

And start waiting  for the things to come out in the way we can understand.

At this moment, it is nothing more than tax chief's unofficial speech.

 

And ignore all those  stupid invitations from any accounting firms  for  Information Session; their only aim is to rip you off in return for the useless advice

How can they show anything  useful when they don't  really know what will happen in the near future either.

 

Personally, I am still very much in doubt If any real changes take place regarding  retirees'  income tax issue.

[anrcaccount]

15 hours ago, chiang mai said:

And a second one that I've not seen before, from Siam Legal dated a month ago, a few interesting points in there, not least of which being when foreigners need to file a tax return. The relevant slide starts, "A Foreigner shall file a tax return if: Bear in mind, this is from Siam Legal.

 

 

Thanks for posting this video.

 

To balance this out, see the video from around 1:01-1:07 , where the AITA tax adviser Thomas Carden discusses his views on the practical implementation of taxation on foreigners.

 

Note with his firm( vs others that were created only in 2023 year and are currently very actively soliciting expats),  is AITA have actual experience processing tax returns in Thailand AND dealing with the TRD.

 

His opinions are:

 

·        the TRD does now know how / if they will implement taxation on foreign remittance, and thinks further change/delay is likely.

·        The TRD lacks the infrastructure to handle the complexity , and secondly there is no enforced requirement to register for a TIN.

·        The tax code they have, and the procedures in place, and is not sufficient to handle the complexity of actually processing these returns for foreign nationals.

 

He cites 2 examples:

 

1.      A case where a foreigner asked the TRD to tax them on his foreign income, he was told “leave, we don’t know how to do that”

 

2.       Another case they have been working on, where a Thai resident sought to claim a low $ value DTA tax credit from when they worked in the US for a period. They have been working with the TRD on this for 15 months to get a single credit, and the TRD is still saying “ we cannot determine how to process this in our system”.

 

 

Overlay these real-world examples with the theory of processing of 300,000 expat tax returns, and consider that.

 

Food for thought.

 

[jayboy]

5 hours ago, chiang mai said:

You're right, not the best choice of words on my part. Well known, significant, farang friendly, prominent, well regarded take your pick. But it doesn't change the fact that it's a well regarded law firm, so if we're going to pay attention to what the other say, we need to pay attention to this one also. 

 

https://www.legal500.com/firms/34053-siam-legal-international/c-thailand/about

 

I'm afraid I don't agree.Just look at the amateurish CVs of the lawyers/foreign partners on the web site.I have no doubt they could assist in relatively low level immigration matters and are definitely farang friendly.Essentially they represent a segment of the legal market - among many - for a certain type of foreigner.Personally I would not dream of employing a firm like this especially on tax matters where they have no expertise.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

I'm afraid I don't agree.Just look at the amateurish CVs of the lawyers/foreign partners on the web site.I have no doubt they could assist in relatively low level immigration matters and are definitely farang friendly.Essentially they represent a segment of the legal market - among many - for a certain type of foreigner.Personally I would not dream of employing a firm like this especially on tax matters where they have no expertise.

Well their tax guy has a Master from Kings College UK so I'd say he probably knows what he's talking about. Plus as Lorry said earlier, one of the representatives in the tax meeting is a professor of tax/economics.

 

https://www.legal500.com/firms/34053-siam-legal-international/c-thailand/news-and-developments/meet-dhanabol-chomsaengchok-our-expert-thailand-tax-advisor

[Lorry]

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

Even if the credit card purchase I make in Thailand is not considered a loan, but a marker to be paid back from my checking account -- who's to say that money in my checking account is income, or even assessable income for Thai tax purposes? In my case, all the money in my checking account is from direct deposits from my govt pension and from social security. And this money is non assessable by Thailand, per DTA.

I agree.

But I will make sure that I have some documentation,  if asked.

What documentation TRD actually wants and accepts,  is anyone's guess.

If it's a tax certificate translated,  certified, and legalised by various embassies and MFA,  "signed by 2 directors", my solution is probably leaving Thailand. 

The Siam legal guy said "you will get a tax certificate" in your home-country - 555.

Pensioners here have for decades unsuccessfully tried to get a Thai tax certificate - it won't be easier in my country. 

 

What I found disturbing is that TRD has thought about credit cards at all.

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

it's unimaginable that Thailand is treating all remittances as assessable income

I find it rather imaginable.

My tax adviser in my home country even told me, they would probably introduce a WHT on remittances.  I don't believe this,  but I mention it to show how tax people "think".

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

Siam Legal seems to have a few holes in their thought process. Not sure I'd want to rely on any of their guidance.....

Agreed. 

 

BTW the  Siam Legal guy also explained, that the new rules are not law.

The law is ambiguous (this has been discussed on AN at the very beginning of all this). He said,  if the law is ambiguous it should be interpreted in the way most favorable to the tax payer. He thinks,  if the new rules are challenged in court, the tax payer would win.

 

[RupertIII]

2 minutes ago, Lorry said:

BTW the  Siam Legal guy also explained, that the new rules are not law.

The law is ambiguous (this has been discussed on AN at the very beginning of all this). He said,  if the law is ambiguous it should be interpreted in the way most favorable to the tax payer. He thinks,  if the new rules are challenged in court, the tax payer would win.

 

If the tax payer is Thai.

[Lorry]

45 minutes ago, RupertIII said:

If the tax payer is Thai.

I think so.

But to be honest,  I haven't seen any discrimination towards me as a foreigner in my (limited) dealings with the TRD so far.

Last time,  the motorcycle driver who brought me there and me got the same treatment (200B late fee).

Difference was, I got a receipt,  he didn't. 

[Ben Zioner]

On 10/4/2024 at 3:03 PM, chiang mai said:

Which is why I think people should calm down and wait until we see what is announced later  in the year.

Difficult to calm down when facing tax bills in the 500K to 1M range. But I agree that it is pointless to spend anything on a tax consultant before early next year.

 

The only important thing to do was to segregate earnings made up to December 31, 2023.

[chiang mai]

The opinions of the foreign tax "expert" in the video mean zero to me, his credibility has been pooh poo'ed loudly and repeatedly by long term members of this thread (Gant), by the expat clubs in the North and in Bangkok and by most people who have listened to him speak in other recent videos. You can't hold the guy up to be an expert whenever he says something you agree with and as a dunce opportunist when he doesn't. His long term track record is that he should be ignored.

[Mike Teavee]

5 hours ago, JimGant said:

Ludicrous. Even if the credit card purchase I make in Thailand is not considered a loan, but a marker to be paid back from my checking account -- who's to say that money in my checking account is income

Take a step back… 

 

Do you honestly believe that you paying for goods & services in Thailand with a credit card is not the same as you remitting money to pay for those services? 
 

The rest of it is about whether the funds used to pay of the credit card is assessable or not.

[ukrules]

10 hours ago, chiang mai said:

foreigners must file if they have over 60/120k of assessable income

 

If they stay more than 180 days or nothing is assessable is it

[chiang mai]

4 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

If they stay more than 180 days or nothing is assessable is it

Yeah, I took it that the residency part was already taken for granted in this context but OK if you want to spell it out. I mean, the thread is entitles tax residents.

[Mike Teavee]

5 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Anyways, I've just pulled the trigger on sending another £3,000 across (came out at 131,443.85 THB) so I'll be c130,000 over my TEDA which means a tax bill of c6,500 - after offsetting the interest withheld from my savings account (c8,000 THB) I should be roughly Tax neutral.

 

For any guys looking to send money over from the UK, I expect the rate to go up now... It always does just after I send some money 😞 

 

Joking aside, I was happy with 43.81 (after Wise fees).

And another £2,800 just got bounced (121,867.04) so I guess I'll be paying a bit of Tax next year.

 

I do wonder if I pay tax for 3 years on the bounce whether I'll be eligible to apply for PR 🙂 

 

Edit: As an aside the 1st Transfer (To Bangkok Bank) will land sometime tomorrow (hopefully) the 2nd one hit my Kasikornbank account immediately.

 

 

[JimGant]

36 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Do you honestly believe that you paying for goods & services in Thailand with a credit card is not the same as you remitting money to pay for those services? 
 

The rest of it is about whether the funds used to pay of the credit card is assessable or not.

Not sure of your point.......if the credit card you use for purchases in Thailand is paid off with non assessable income/funds, then there is no taxable event. Plain and simple.  What am I missing?

[Mike Teavee]

19 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Not sure of your point.......if the credit card you use for purchases in Thailand is paid off with non assessable income/funds, then there is no taxable event. Plain and simple.  What am I missing?

You're not missing anything, the point is what funds are being used to pay off the credit card.

 

Lots of people have speculated that they can just use their credit/debit card in Thailand and it's not remitted income, end of the day common sense tells you that it is & so the only point is whether the funds used to pay it off are from assessable income or not. 

 

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

You're not missing anything, the point is what funds are being used to pay off the credit card.

 

Lots of people have speculated that they can just use their credit/debit card in Thailand and it's not remitted income, end of the day common sense tells you that it is & so the only point is whether the funds used to pay it off are from assessable income or not. 

 

And how many times has that same message been repeated in these threads this past year yet some still don't understand....yee gods.

 

[chiang mai]

45) The core issue is likely to be the source of the funds used in the home country to settle the credit card bill and whether those funds are exempt or assessable.  

 

46) The TRD doesn’t care about credit agreements or debt in the card holders home country, only about the events that took place in Thailand and the funds used to facilitate them. 

 

 

 

[JimGant]

43 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

the point is what funds are being used to pay off the credit card.

Which was exactly my point, to go after the Siam Legal beagles that just flatly said, "credit card purchases are a taxable event" Period. Without consideration of payment source. Anyway, I guess we're on the same frequency.

[Ben Zioner]

5 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Thanks for posting this video.

 

To balance this out, see the video from around 1:01-1:07 , where the AITA tax adviser Thomas Carden discusses his views on the practical implementation of taxation on foreigners.

 

Note with his firm( vs others that were created only in 2023 year and are currently very actively soliciting expats),  is AITA have actual experience processing tax returns in Thailand AND dealing with the TRD.

 

His opinions are:

 

·        the TRD does now know how / if they will implement taxation on foreign remittance, and thinks further change/delay is likely.

·        The TRD lacks the infrastructure to handle the complexity , and secondly there is no enforced requirement to register for a TIN.

·        The tax code they have, and the procedures in place, and is not sufficient to handle the complexity of actually processing these returns for foreign nationals.

 

He cites 2 examples:

 

1.      A case where a foreigner asked the TRD to tax them on his foreign income, he was told “leave, we don’t know how to do that”

 

2.       Another case they have been working on, where a Thai resident sought to claim a low $ value DTA tax credit from when they worked in the US for a period. They have been working with the TRD on this for 15 months to get a single credit, and the TRD is still saying “ we cannot determine how to process this in our system”.

 

 

Overlay these real-world examples with the theory of processing of 300,000 expat tax returns, and consider that.

 

Food for thought.

 

I think he was talking BS, at about 1:20 they mix up Elite, LTV and LTR....

[chiang mai]

4 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

I think he was talking BS, at about 1:20 they mix up Elite, LTV and LTR....

I also think that. Hes well connected and known but I don't read or hear good things about him from anyone, quite the opposite in fact.

[anrcaccount]

2 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

I think he was talking BS, at about 1:20 they mix up Elite, LTV and LTR....

 

I'll agree that he talks a bit of BS ( even more later in the video re the Hong Kong stuff) , but I believe his examples I noted were factual, and I do agree with his views on the practical implementation of taxation of foreigners / foreign remittance.

 

Plus, he actually has been doing this and dealing with the TRD for many years, unlike many other agencies that have sprung up opportunistically since the 'new interpretations' were publicised last year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[chiang mai]

He talks BS but he's a very experienced BS'er and he's been BS'ing for a long time....right, what could go wrong!

[JimGant]

13 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

Plus, he actually has been doing this and dealing with the TRD for many years, unlike many other agencies that have sprung up opportunistically since the 'new interpretations' were publicised last year.

He's a charlatan. When you have time, grab a beer, kick back, and read this thread.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1008555-tax-specialist-in-chiang-mai/

 

[Mike Teavee]

21 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Which was exactly my point, to go after the Siam Legal beagles that just flatly said, "credit card purchases are a taxable event" Period. Without consideration of payment source. Anyway, I guess we're on the same frequency.

I'm sorry I missed that, I thought you were talking about the credit  card usage & not the paying for it part... Yes, it all depends on the source of the funds you use to pay the card debt off, (IMHO) it's no different to you sending yourself that money to purchase the goods/service.

 

I recall another video (Retired Working for You) where a(n apparently) very respected Foreign "Tax Attorney" stated categorically that only funds "Repatriated" to Thailand would be subject to tax (ATM, Credit card etc... were Tax Free).

 

I really suggest the "Expert" looks up the definition of "Repatriated" as I don't know about anybody else but all of the money I bring into Thailand is Expatriated (& according to him Free of Tax).

 

 

Just got the parents a cracking flight deal for them to come over for a month in Jan, Booked in the UK & paid for on my UK credit card, IMHO absolutely not remitted income 🙂 

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

12 hours ago, chiang mai said:

For the first time we have a major Thai law firm telling us that foreigners must file, not just everyone but foreigners specifically must file, when the assessable income thresholds are breached. NO mention is made of using common sense to see if tax is due and if not, making your own arbitrary decision not to file; NO mention is made of self assessing whether your TEDA levels means that you shouldn't file, if you TEDA means no tax is due. It's black and white and it's a law firm telling us, foreigners must file if they have over 60/120k of assessable income.

Woop-di-do

12 hours ago, chiang mai said:

This is hardly big news nor any significant revelation, for months now many law firms have been quoting the letter of the TRD regulations, if asked, they will happily show you where it is listed in the TRD rules.

 

This is where there is a difference between a law firm and a tax accountant firm 

The law firm will follow the letter of the law and advise on that, (they cannot be wrong, but following their advice may well make you unpopular with the TRD)

The tax accountant will follow the requirements of the TRD officers they present accounts to and have been advised by.

Because this is Thailand it is not any revelation that the letter of the law and the practice are different 

 

You must decide which advice to follow, I am certainly not going to tell you which I am going to do, nor am I going to make any recommendations 

 

12 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Do I like it? Not much! But I'm happier that SIAM Legal interprets the tax rules the same way that I do and that we no longer have to rely on an unwritten rule that is supported only by a couple of farangs on AN.

You conveniently forget the advice given by at least one of the big 4 major accounting firms, not the mention the personal advice given by numerous TRD officials.

 

But you do you, of course you are going to do that anyway