Plan B Countries - Any Advice or Ideas ?

[MangoKorat]

8 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

So what is the difference?

I have no idea but if you have been following the many discussions on the tax changes affecting foreigners in Thailand - you must have missed the information on this subject.

 

On several occasions, people, apparently in the know, have stated that a UK State Pension does form part of your assessable income in Thailand whereas income from a Government Pension does not.

 

I have never understood the distinction but maybe a Government Pension is that provided to retired government employees?

 

In any case, although I have not looked into it yet as I am not yet resident in Thailand, from reading the various threads, I will be moving forward on the understanding that my pension, when I receive it, will form part of my assessable income in Thailand.

 

Before you go making any changes to your finances in Thailand or leaving for 183 days to avoid being classed as tax resident, you might want to look at the allowances you receive and do a 'dummy run' to see how much tax you will actually pay.  I believe you stated that you are not pension age yet but I would just note that the Thai allowances increase substantially when you reach 65.

 

With careful use of 'cash' and control of how much you actually bring in to Thailand, I think you might find that staying in Thailand and paying tax (if any) is much cheaper than moving around in order to avoid it.

 

That said, I still have to look into the 'Reported' possibility that the Thai authorities intend taxing the tax global income of 'tax residents'.  I really don't see how they will do that but its something I will be following and checking out in more detail before I 'make the move' early in 2025.

[chickenslegs]

32 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

 

 

I am a bit confused by that.

 

I thought, rightly or not, that the UK state pension came under the DTA.

 

So what is the difference?

 

State pensions are what most elderly people use in Europe, I accept many have backup with private pensions.

 

If they were going after anything, one would have thought it would be the top-up additional private pension because most people are entitled to state pension, even those who have spent their lives unemployed.

 

The state pensions are supposedly to cover the needs of a pensioner to exist and pay their bills.

 

Anyway, it's got to be transferred in through the banks as income, I have no intention of remitting funds this way any more.

 

Government pension is paid to civil service, armed forces, police, NHS, state school teachers, and the like.

The State Pension is not covered in the UK/Thailand DTA - so it is liable to be taxed here.

However, I received a letter from HMRC recently, on an unrelated matter, that stated that it is "protocol" to provide relief for any double taxation.

An extract from the letter:

Quote

Your Police Pension is deemed as a Governmental Pension and therefore remains taxable within the United Kingdom.

Your State Pension is not covered by the current agreement and so also remains taxable within the UK.

Thailand may tax this income too, this can result in double taxation.

As the resident state it is protocol that Thailand would provide unilateral (independent) relief to any double taxation arising.
However, this is not for HMRC to decide but is down to the discretion of the Thai Tax Authorities.

 

[ukrules]

11 hours ago, Mahseer said:

An individual is deemed to be a Cambodian resident if he is domiciled in or has a principal place of abode in Cambodia or is present in Cambodia for more than 182 days during the calendar year. Cambodian residents are taxed on their worldwide salary income.

 

Yeah they keep saying that but when you look a little deeper things happen very differently on the ground.

For example, look up how to make a personal tax filing in Cambodia without being an employee or just getting a tax number without a job being employed at a Cambodian company.

See how far you get.......hint - not far.

 

Everything about global taxation in Cambodia you read is a lie - it doesn't exist.

Edited Monday at 01:31 PM by ukrules

[JimTripper]

On 11/24/2024 at 2:19 PM, GammaGlobulin said:

Maybe.

But, in these countries, medical dental care is not what it is in Thailand.

 

So, if on were to choose among countries with same or better medical and dental compared to Thailand...

Then which three alternate countries would people choose?

 

(No need to mention Malaya, because I have already considered Malaya.)

Depends on what your budget is. How wealthy are you?

[Scouse123]

1 hour ago, MangoKorat said:

I have no idea but if you have been following the many discussions on the tax changes affecting foreigners in Thailand - you must have missed the information on this subject.

 

On several occasions, people, apparently in the know, have stated that a UK State Pension does form part of your assessable income in Thailand whereas income from a Government Pension does not.

 

I have never understood the distinction but maybe a Government Pension is that provided to retired government employees?

 

In any case, although I have not looked into it yet as I am not yet resident in Thailand, from reading the various threads, I will be moving forward on the understanding that my pension, when I receive it, will form part of my assessable income in Thailand.

 

Before you go making any changes to your finances in Thailand or leaving for 183 days to avoid being classed as tax resident, you might want to look at the allowances you receive and do a 'dummy run' to see how much tax you will actually pay.  I believe you stated that you are not pension age yet but I would just note that the Thai allowances increase substantially when you reach 65.

 

With careful use of 'cash' and control of how much you actually bring in to Thailand, I think you might find that staying in Thailand and paying tax (if any) is much cheaper than moving around in order to avoid it.

 

That said, I still have to look into the 'Reported' possibility that the Thai authorities intend taxing the tax global income of 'tax residents'.  I really don't see how they will do that but its something I will be following and checking out in more detail before I 'make the move' early in 2025.

 

 

Yes,

 

Thanks for that.

 

I think the trick is, is to make sure it doesn't go through bank to bank into Thailand.

 

Other methods as I outlined earlier such as using foreign debit and credit cards and of course, Revolut and Wise cards.

[GammaGlobulin]

5 hours ago, JimTripper said:

Depends on what your budget is. How wealthy are you?

 

How wealthy is Elon?

 

[JimTripper]

2 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

How wealthy is Elon?

Must be nice to never worry about dental bills.

[GammaGlobulin]

4 hours ago, JimTripper said:

Must be nice to never worry about dental bills.

 

Might be even nicer to never worry about dental pain.

 

How much would THAT be worth to you, or anyone?

 

[Yagoda]

Im right next door in Cambodia, with decent medical insurance and Medicare in the USA plus private insurance there.

 

So Im gravy already. Plus my kid may be getting a fatass job in Greece so we may buy a place on a Greek Island, and a place in  either Kentucky or Tenessee as an ultimate bolt hole.

 

The goal would be November to February in Cambodia and Thailand. March and April in Greece, may through September in the USA and then October back in Greece.

[JimTripper]

3 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Might be even nicer to never worry about dental pain.

 

How much would THAT be worth to you, or anyone?

The call them all on fours or something like that here. They extract all your teeth and put in implants. It's all the rage these days...

[henryford1958]

On 11/25/2024 at 8:34 AM, Woke to Sounds of Horking said:

What about Sri Lanka?  I visited twice in 2014 and 2015 and loved it.  But that was 10 yrs ago and maybe it has changed...

 

Same here, i loved it around Candy, but i guess they don't have a long term visa for expats. Vietnam has no long term visa, the Philippines is a dump. So i guess it's Cambodia for 6 months then Thailand for 179 days.

Edited yesterday at 02:12 AM by henryford1958

[BritManToo]

13 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

With careful use of 'cash' and control of how much you actually bring in to Thailand, I think you might find that staying in Thailand and paying tax (if any) is much cheaper than moving around in order to avoid it.

Not that worried about paying tax in Thailand.

More worried about Thailand telling my UK bank I live here, and my UK bank closing my account.

Debanking is real for those of us from the UK. 

[BarBoy]

Panama.

 

It's the place to be.

[GypsyT]

6 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

More worried about Thailand telling my UK bank I live here, and my UK bank closing my account.

Debanking is real for those of us from the UK. 

Same in the US.

Luckily I've a great friendship w my ex. I'm on her utility bills, on her car and so on. Bank required all that.

 

[Presnock]

On 11/24/2024 at 9:00 AM, Gold2005 said:

 

Hi everyone. I wondered if anyone could give me any ideas or tips or any experiences where they've chosen a Plan B country and actually done it where they spend less than 180 days in Thailand. Any countries recommended from positive experiences etc. 

 

 I've lived here for over 20 years. I had a great time but it's not quite the same as it was then and just looking for friendly suggestions or experiences from other people that have been gone to another country outside of Thailand to spend a bit of time to and there's a good expat community and not expensive, could get visa to spend time there and so. Be interesting to hear other expats ideas. Thanks. 

I spent 7 years in the Philippines - I was a scuba diver (got certified as I learned of PI assignment) - some of the greatest diving in the world, warm waters tons of sealife and available dive sites.  Local food not as good as Thai foods but western foods also available.  Lots of expats there - complaints on forum there sound somewhat like here.  big or small cities located throughout.  English is spoken widely.  If ex military, I heard that the immigration there is much easier for one.  Lots of golf courses.  Anyway PI was my second choice for retirement and if tax problems here arose, that is where I would move to.  Expensive all depends on your lifestyle and where you want to reside - within the major cities more expensive, but lots of outer cities much cheaper.  They don't tax foreign income either.

[KhunLA]

14 minutes ago, GypsyT said:

Same in the US.

Luckily I've a great friendship w my ex. I'm on her utility bills, on her car and so on. Bank required all that.

 

Not sure the USA can close accounts, if have IRA/401s, as I have a few there.   I simply use my brothers address & Ph#.   My company pension will not deposit in non USA account, even though an international company.  Main reason I keep the accounts open.

 

Good relationship with brother and we'd do what ever for each other.  I did give him one of my houses when I retired, since needing.   He just mailed me my new Visa card, as they get delivered to his address.  Still use USA address for those accounts.   Added plus, no transaction fees on both ends when us ATM here / TH.  So basically free access to my company pension when using.

 

IRS & Soc Sec have my TH address & ph#.

 

OT ... Plan B, none, as too old & lazy to bother.  Neighboring countries, definitely not, as infrastructure not up to par with TH.  Along with visa option, and I want to continue to own and invest in RE.   Of course you need a trusted partner for that.

 

If forced to leave (never happen) then probably back to USA, play nomadic tourest till bored, then maybe Canada for something more permanent or partial / split living between the 2, Canada & USA.  Maybe extended holidays in Mexico or Caribbean islands during winter.

Edited yesterday at 02:36 AM by KhunLA

[Woke to Sounds of Horking]

20 minutes ago, henryford1958 said:

Same here, i loved it around Candy, but i guess they don't have a long term visa for expats.

They did have a so called Golden Visa. It required 100,000 USD to qualify. Not sure if still available. Never got to Kandy but I heard good things about Nuwara Eliya, similar climate, tea country highlands.

[Presnock]

9 minutes ago, GypsyT said:

Same in the US.

Luckily I've a great friendship w my ex. I'm on her utility bills, on her car and so on. Bank required all that.

 

US one doesn't need a US address or phone number - Google "SDFCU.org"   it is for State Department Federal Credit Union.  you do not need to be an employee of the State Department nor of the govenment.  When BOA closed my account for no phone nor address in US, I contacted the SDFCU and was immediately given an account.  They welcome us and for 5 years they have been great with no problems.  

[Presnock]

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Not sure the USA can close accounts, if have IRA/401s, as I have a few there.   I simply use my brothers address & Ph#.   My company pension will not deposit in non USA account, even though an international company.  Main reason I keep the accounts open.

 

Good relationship with brother and we'd do what ever for each other.  I did give him one of my houses when I retired, since needing.   He just mailed me my new Visa card, as they get delivered to his address.  Still use USA address for those accounts.   Added plus, no transaction fees on both ends when us ATM here / TH.  So basically free access to my company pension when using.

 

IRS & Soc Sec have my TH address & ph#.

SDFCU.org, a US bank will accept pension payments (mine) .  Easy to apply and great service for the 5 years I have been there when BOA closed my account. google them and they will provide you with any requirements.

[GypsyT]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

US one doesn't need a US address or phone number - Google "SDFCU.org"   it is for State Department Federal Credit Union.

They need same as all others. It's a Federal thing;

 

Proof of Residency
• Deed/Deed of Trust
• Mortgage statement (no more than 60 days old)
• Real Estate Property Tax bill or Tax Assessment (current year)
• Valid residential rental/lease agreement
• Utility bill showing the same mailing and service address (no more than 60 days old)
o Acceptable utility bill - water, electric, gas, cable and landline phone bill
• Change of Address Card with a valid State issued Driver’s License or Identification card issued by the same
agency

 

Log-in same too.

 

[Presnock]

3 hours ago, GypsyT said:

They need same as all others. It's a Federal thing;

 

Proof of Residency
• Deed/Deed of Trust
• Mortgage statement (no more than 60 days old)
• Real Estate Property Tax bill or Tax Assessment (current year)
• Valid residential rental/lease agreement
• Utility bill showing the same mailing and service address (no more than 60 days old)
o Acceptable utility bill - water, electric, gas, cable and landline phone bill
• Change of Address Card with a valid State issued Driver’s License or Identification card issued by the same
agency

 

Log-in same too.

 

I didn't need to do most of that, only join an organization on their long list (American citizens abroad), I did need to provide my foreign address but none of the other things as I was doing it from Chiang Mai.  Anyway just saying yeah things aren't getting any easier for sure.

[MangoKorat]

10 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Not that worried about paying tax in Thailand.

More worried about Thailand telling my UK bank I live here, and my UK bank closing my account.

Debanking is real for those of us from the UK. 

Yes, I can see how that would cause problems for transfers etc.

[HermesHermes]

On 11/25/2024 at 9:05 AM, GammaGlobulin said:

 

So then...

 

How long could one stay in Malaya each and every year, without paying much for a visa, if one were American?

 

For example,  if one wished to divide one's time between just two countries, Thailand and Malaya, what would be the best plan to divide one's time?  If one wanted to spend maximum time in one country...

 

9 months in Malaya and 3 months in Thailand, for example.

 

Malaya became part of Malaysia on September 16, 1963, when the Federation of Malaya merged with Singapore, North Borneo (Sabah), and Sarawak to form the Federation of Malaysia

[Old Curmudgeon]

On 11/25/2024 at 7:10 AM, Scouse123 said:

... if somebody is going to these places to get out of paying any proposed Thai taxes or this 179 day limit, then how much is it going to cost them with the above itinerary for food, flights, accommodation, and spending.

 

 

Good thinking.  Thank you, @Scouse123

[ukrules]

On 11/25/2024 at 7:10 AM, Scouse123 said:

If, and this is purely a guess, the reason is to avoid being classed as a Thai tax resident, I BELIEVE IT WOULD BE MORE EXPENSIVE.

 

That may be the case of course but it really depends on how much money you 'earn' during the given year / years

For example, lets say you have that house sitting there in one of the many countries where your primary residency doesn't get taxed when you sell it and you decide to sell it and get say $1.5 million US for it.

Zero tax due back home, if you're a tax resident in Thailand during that year of sale then you will be taxable for the rest of your life on any of those funds that are remitted with no time limit.

 

People will fall into this trap by accident, for example, if you sell up in March to retire and then move to Thailand an May and make the mistake of staying all year - then you're in the net and on the hook for tax on that money forever.

 

That's a definite reason to skip a year during the selling of very profitable assets regardless of what they are.

Cambodia can be done for $10k a year easily, far less or more if you like all depends on how / where you want to live.

[Scouse123]

4 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

That may be the case of course but it really depends on how much money you 'earn' during the given year / years

For example, lets say you have that house sitting there in one of the many countries where your primary residency doesn't get taxed when you sell it and you decide to sell it and get say $1.5 million US for it.

Zero tax due back home, if you're a tax resident in Thailand during that year of sale then you will be taxable for the rest of your life on any of those funds that are remitted with no time limit.

 

People will fall into this trap by accident, for example, if you sell up in March to retire and then move to Thailand an May and make the mistake of staying all year - then you're in the net and on the hook for tax on that money forever.

 

That's a definite reason to skip a year during the selling of very profitable assets regardless of what they are.

Cambodia can be done for $10k a year easily, far less or more if you like all depends on how / where you want to live.

 

Simple,

 

You don't transfer any monies to Thailand over and above your tax allowances and permitted deductibles.

 

I think people will stop transferring money to buy any big ticket items, unless they can prove its savings prior to 2024. I think quite a slump in condo sales.

 

Nobody wants to be jumping through hoops to prove their funds are from savings prior to 2024.

 

 I for one, won't be buying any cars if this is how it is all going to pan out, I change my car every three years, or I was doing.

 

Then we have those that will start being in the country for no more than 179 days.

 

This will happen, especially if it relates to sale of a major asset abroad, and the possibility of what you are saying above.

 

To me, they've shot themselves in the foot if they pursue this, as it will stifle investment from foreigners wanting to retire here.

 

They are not grasping it, that there are plenty more choices these days for wealthy retirees, or actually standard retirees. Europe, South America, and the obvious ones in SE Asia.

 

Thailand just isn't THE BIG CHEESE ANY MORE.

 

It's becoming expensive, the main draw used to be for many, cheap living, sun, sea, and sand and of course, the go go bars and FUN.

 

When the cons start to outweigh the pros, people will decide with their feet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Scouse123

[henryford1958]

1 hour ago, Scouse123 said:

 

Simple,

 

You don't transfer any monies to Thailand over and above your tax allowances and permitted deductibles.

 

I think people will stop transferring money to buy any big ticket items, unless they can prove its savings prior to 2024. I think quite a slump in condo sales.

 

Nobody wants to be jumping through hoops to prove their funds are from savings prior to 2024.

 

To me, they've shot themselves in the foot if they pursue this, as it will stifle investment from foreigners wanting to retire here.

 

 

That could be chaotic if they add 35% to all condo prices ! Is that how it works, It you bring in 10 million to buy a condo you pay 3.5 million in tax,

[GypsyT]

Is there any Jomtien type beach cities in Cambodia? Clean and safe?

I read Kep is popular for weekend but how about for 3-4 months?

[Celsius]

Portugal used to be a premier choice for discerning aseannow poster

 

 

[GypsyT]

Mexico baby! Close to US.

Did you know this? I've used it for last 14 yrs.

 

"Our taxes are also much less, in part thanks to the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion, which states that as long as you don't spend more than 35 days in the US, you don't need to pay income tax on the first roughly $120,000 you earn while working in Mexico."

Happy gays in Mexico;

https://www.yahoo.com/news/husband-felt-didnt-save-enough-122102893.html